Moderators: peeker643, swerb, pup, paulcousineau
by swerb » Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:11 pm
by psk678 » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:11 am
by Mr. MacPhisto » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:17 am
by pod2dawg » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:11 am
by The Math God » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:58 am
by paulcousineau » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:35 pm
by furls » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:38 pm
Jhonny won't get a chance to play 3rd as long as we still have Marte in the system.
by rk » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:58 pm
by Mr. MacPhisto » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:12 pm
by leadpipe » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:44 pm
by Mr. MacPhisto » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:23 pm
Lead Pipe wrote:Again, the guy was traded twice inside of 90 days. This isn't the norm for blue-chippers. Point being, if the Tribe hopes to aquire someone that is really going to help them in the stretch run, Marte will be an inclusion, not a feature.
by leadpipe » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:36 pm
by fsnrules » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:59 pm
by Steve Buffum » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:16 pm
by Mr. MacPhisto » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:08 am
Lead Pipe wrote:As far as his status personally, in my eyes, the guy is in big trouble unless he changes his approach. There are a lot of mistakes floating around big league parks as far as poor pitches are concerned, but not nearly enough for him to succeed as is. I doubt he's ever a consistent starter, let alone star.
by ArtGold » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:16 am
by leadpipe » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:35 pm
ArtGold wrote:Not much to add to what has already been said about Peralta, plus I have already said a lot about him in previous threads.So I'll discuss Marte a little here. Batting wise, I think he can be a Dean Palmer type of hitter. If you take a look at Dean Palmer's initial season, you'll see he didn't do very well. Same thing for Mike Schmidt, Matt Williams and Howard Johnson. http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/palmede01.shtmlhttp://www.baseball-reference.com/j/johnsho01.shtmlhttp://www.baseball-reference.com/w/willima04.shtmlhttp://www.baseball-reference.com/s/schmimi01.shtmlPoint is, it may not be a bad idea to invest a season in him.
by pup » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:37 pm
This is where the 6 figure GM comes in. It really doesn't matter if Art thinks he's worth keeping or Lead thinks they should cut ties. We're not the ones that need to be right.
by Mr. MacPhisto » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:32 pm
Lead Pipe wrote:I'd be interested in seeing the minor league stats of the above players. I know in at least a couple instances they were taking lumps in the bigs at a young age because they were murdering minor league pitching. That has relevance for the fact that, as Bill James has pointed out to us all, Minor league stats are an indicator of what's to come.
To take the most extreme case of Schmidt. He struggled early in his career, but at 24 years old went .282 36 116, in an era not as "offensive" as today. Now, nobody claimed Marte to be in the HOF, however, with each year he's not a full time player his projections RAPIDLY decline.
My whole point is, at this juncture he doesn't seem to be close. If it takes him till 26 to be a regular, all of the sudden your not dealing with a big time prospect, your dealing with a guy that organizations have quite a few of
To your point Art, if anyone thinks Marte is somewhat of the real deal, than the most value at this time right might be keeping him here, because right now his projectons around the league aren't all that high.
by pup » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:37 pm
by Mr. MacPhisto » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:45 pm
Pup wrote:How about Marte, Lofgren, Ben Fran and Sowers for Crawford?And I know, and have preached right along with you about them not trading Crawford, but would this be something that would begin to tickle their fancy?
by leadpipe » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:53 pm
by Mr. MacPhisto » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:36 pm
Lead Pipe wrote:Umm, I wasn't speaking specifically about Marte. What I'm saying is that a player in general who isn't producing at the major league level at 26, projects far less than one who isn't producing at 22. So, unless I'm pulling facts out of my ass, from my ass this info didn't come. And, I already said Schmidt was an extreme case. He produced at an extremely young age, like almost all hall-of-fame levels guys do. (That fact not pulled out of my ass either, if I need to source everything with you from now on, there are two excellent essays on this in, "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame" and "The Historical Baseball Absract")
As to the rest of the post, the minor league numbers indicate what was inferred. Hope I passed the ass pulling test there.
I have MY opinion on the guy, more to the point I have an opinion on what his value is. You and your scout friends think otherwise. That's good, and I hope your correct, but if I said I agree, I'd be lying.
Look, I don't say your pulling shit out of your ass when you say the Cavs can move Larry Hughes, because that's your opinion. If my opinion differs from yours, deal with it, that's a major point of the boards, isn't it?
Now, nobody claimed Marte to be in the HOF, however, with each year he's not a full time player his projections RAPIDLY decline.
by Duane Kuiper » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:51 pm
by leadpipe » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:59 pm
by pup » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:17 pm
Duane Kuiper wrote:According to Hardball Times' Revised Zone Rating (RZR), Peralta is the worst ML SS.LinkBarfield and Blake didn't rank much better.
by Mr. MacPhisto » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:52 pm
Lead Pipe wrote:Fair enough.One last point about the value of a 23 year old prospect declining being silly. The fact that he isn't playing regularly at 23 puts him at a little lower level than one who is, because of the reasons behind it. A modern example would be Alex Gordon. He is, like Schmidt, getting playing time at his age and taking serious lumps. The reason he won't play himself out of the line-up is because of what he's done in the past, including success in the minors.
Our whole point of contention is not necessarily where he's at at 23, but where he'll be at 26. You would have to agree that if one is still bouncing up and down as years go by, with each year the relative success rate declines as well.
You think he'll be a nice player at 26. I think he'll still be struggling. This is why you feel he has more trade value than I. That's all.
Lastly, my post that started this could have been worded better, as I suppose many of mine could be from a linguistic standpoint. So, occasionaly I will fall victim to my poor journalism skills.
by leadpipe » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:35 pm
by pod2dawg » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:52 pm
by Mr. MacPhisto » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:39 pm
Lead Pipe wrote:Also, one last thing concerning Marte, and your point about him in the Cleveland organization.... I'll take it a step further. The guy should have been given a shot out of the box LAST YEAR after a great spring. All that stood in his way was an AWFUL free-agent in one Aaron Boone. He was stuck losing out to a horrible player because of organizational bias, you know, kinda like Brandon Phillips.
by ArtGold » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:31 pm
by pup » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:32 am
Absolutely. I think this has to do with attendance. My belief is that they are loath to finish much below .500, fearing attendance will dwindle to 1.5 million. So they would rather sign guys improving their chances of playing at least .500 ball. What I am saying is that they would rather go for assured mediocrity than take a chance on totally tanking (risk/reward tradeoff).
by Mr. MacPhisto » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:22 am
Pup wrote:It ain't working.And that is a poor excuse for a general manager. His job is to know who the best players are. He should know wether Fransisco is better than Nixon, or Delucci. If he is wrong about somthing like this, please explain what he has done to deserve his extension.
by pup » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:56 am
Don't know how much of it is Shapiro and how much is Wedge. Shapiro gets the retread players, but Wedge may ask for them. I think Mark respects Wedge's input too much because he's always been his guy. Right now I would blame Wedge for not playing Francisco and Shapiro for not forcing the issue a bit more
by Mr. MacPhisto » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:54 pm
Pup wrote:Not exactly anything that will make me like Shapiro more. If he is still listening to Wedge after getting burned on the Phillips debacle, then again I ask, why is this guy getting extensions?
by ArtGold » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:08 am
by Prosecutor » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:14 pm
by Mr. MacPhisto » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:18 pm
Prosecutor wrote:If I understand this correctly, Marte is out of options and has to be on the Indians roster next season or be placed on waivers. He can't spend another year in Buffalo, right?
If that's the case, then the rest of this season will be very, very important, IMO. He's starting to hit, and if he continues to hit well the Tribe will certainly make a spot for him, assuming he's really 23 years old. If he hits .230 the second half, it will be a tough call. If he can't hit AAA pitching this year then he won't be able to hit in the majors next year. And what good is a third baseman who can't hit?
The Tribe should be strong contenders next year, especially if Adam Miller emerges like Carmona did this year, and if they find a productive corner outfield bat in the off-season to replace Nixon and Dellucci. They can't afford to play a guy who hits .220 at third base when they're contending for the division. [/quote[True. That's why I prefer Peralta if he can play there.Is Marte the next Russell Branyon or the next Dean Palmer? The next three months could go a long way to answering that question. And the Indians need an answer by the end of this season, because the time to fish or cut bait with this guy is rapidly approaching.
Is Marte the next Russell Branyon or the next Dean Palmer? The next three months could go a long way to answering that question. And the Indians need an answer by the end of this season, because the time to fish or cut bait with this guy is rapidly approaching.
by consigliere » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:57 pm
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