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Benz article of 7/5

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Benz article of 7/5

Unread postby sdtribefan » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:03 am

I must give Benz credit. I thought that Pluto, Ocker and Shaw's recent articles on the cause of the Tribe's attendence problems were the stupidest, opinionated drivel ever written. But here comes Benz to show me an even more ignorant opinion piece totally devoid of any factual substance. I do not know who writes the puff intros for Benz and Regano but the cheerleader of the ignorant approach is really old.
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Unread postby gdbenz » Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:43 am

Interesting reply and appreciate the feedback. If you don't think anyone really understands why the Indians aren't drawing, what's your theories? It is factual that the Indians aren't drawing particularly well, especially considering their first-place status. What's the reason(s)? If it's not the perpetual underfunding, the failure to sign our own, the impact of last season's disaster, etc., then what is it? It's easy to call someone stupid for expressing their thoughts, but the least you can do is put yourself out there with an opinion that we can shoot down, too.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:34 am

Isn't any article related to the Indians lack of attendance going to be opinion driven? If the sdtribefan has FACTUAL info, I'd like to hear it.

By the way, I think it's a combination of many things many have already mentioned - the fad of the Jake wearing off, The Browns back in town, The Dolans thriftiness, overall cost of going down there among other things mentioned.

By the way, the article and opinion was not ignorant. That reply was.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:00 am

I'd say all that factors in along with the economic state of the city and of Ohio in general. It sounds to me like a lot of people have to pick and choose what they want to see and right now the Cavs and Browns are bigger draws.

If the Tribe gets back to the postseason then I think people will be far more consistent with attendance next year. A solid playoff run will get people excited again.
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Unread postby cozmeesah » Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:23 pm

By the way, the article and opinion was not ignorant. That reply was.



(agree)



I enjoyed both Benz and Cousineau's articles on the subject.
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Hey Swerb!

Unread postby sdtribefan » Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:26 pm

I imagine you have seen this coming for some time, or should have anyway. I will leave it up to you whether I should respond to Perry Mason or do a Hamilton Burger. BTW, did you actually write the stupid intro to the article in question?
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:35 pm

I will leave it up to you whether I should respond to Perry Mason or do a Hamilton Burger.
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Unread postby sdtribefan » Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:31 am

me2whenireadu
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Unread postby buckeyehoppy » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:06 pm

Mr. MacPhisto wrote:I'd say all that factors in along with the economic state of the city and of Ohio in general. It sounds to me like a lot of people have to pick and choose what they want to see and right now the Cavs and Browns are bigger draws.

If the Tribe gets back to the postseason then I think people will be far more consistent with attendance next year. A solid playoff run will get people excited again.


This is sad, but true. The second paragraph is even sadder, but just as factual.

The reality of why the Cavaliers are a better draw couldn't be more evident. The Browns, however, are a product of who knows what level of undeserved good grace from their fans. If Cleveland really wanted to get behind a group that has a legitimate chance the Indians are it.

I will relish the opportunity to walk up and get seats for a Tribe game while the chance lasts. Jacobs Field is a great place to watch a game, no matter where you are seated.

I don't know if Cleveland has it in her to have 455 sellouts in a row, but I suspect the obvious answer would be "no". I would be happy if they sold out all their Friday games, half of their Saturday and Sunday games, as well as half of their divisional games, period.

Roughly speaking, if the Indians could do that, they would sell out half of their games. If they averaged 25K for the other games, we'd be looking at attendance in excess of 2.5M for the season. That is a completely realistic number to hit for attendance.

It would be a tough number to hit, since the economic climate in Cleveland today isn't nearly what it was when Jacobs Field opened. Corporate layoffs and the death of Cleveland's manufacturing sector have a lot of say in that matter. And the fans having to pick and choose is a by-product of that say.

It's not so easy, but each Tribe fan needs to ask the question: "How many games will I attend this year?" And there will be none of the standard excuses of the cheap ownership, or the lack of playoff qualification or the weather, etc. You are either a fan or you are not! It's that simple.
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Unread postby smtp » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:40 pm

Hello everyone. I just registered last week, though I've been reading for a little while.

I wanted to comment on this a day or so ago, but I've been busy until now (and right now I only have a few minutes to collect my thoughts). I hope I can get my point across without sounding patronizing or judgmental. It's not meant to be that way at all.

I moved to the Cleveland area not long ago from St. Louis. I've been a baseball fan ever since I was little (I've only recently been following stats, so be gentle) and I can say without a doubt that in my experience Cardinals fans are some of the most loyal in baseball. Winning, losing, the fans are there. They complain at times, yes, but they are consistently filling the seats and backing their team.

I come to Cleveland and it seems to be a different story, and I guess I don't understand it. I do know this team has had some colossal flubs in the past, but every team has. Why are Cleveland fans so generally defeatist? It's not like you're dealing with the Bad News Bears, here.

If my impressions are wrong, please enlighten me. I have asked my boyfriend about this in the past (who is originally from Detroit but moved here when he was 15), and his only answer was something akin to "my heart has been broken too many times".

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Unread postby pup » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:11 pm

1948
1964
Never

Most fans, especially ones on sites such as this have NEVER won a title. Those are the last ones for each team.

We have been close, but never over the hump.

The people I know see this with the Tribe. They are as close as any team has ever been around here to getting this done in the next year or two, yet they see a management group that they do not feel has done enough to get them over that hump. If they do something at the deadline, people will believe. If they don't, we won't.

One or two pieces would have been enough last winter, instead we got Nixon, Delucci, Hernandez, Fultz and Borowski. Not exactly an awe inspiring crew...at least in a good way.
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Unread postby swerb » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:21 pm

Really, for me, it comes down to just a couple things with the attendance issue.

You have sizable chunk of fans that resent the Dolans. And you have another chunk (many not in the Anti-Dolan Group) that just doesn't believe in this team.

All the people that cite the northeast Ohio economic swoon, or competition with the Cavs and Browns for the sports entertainment dollars ... I don't buy that. This city is absolutely starving for a winner. When they feel they have one in town, they will show up in big numbers at the box office.

But the masses just aren't buying in yet. The people dedicated enough to frequent sites like this are buying in for the most part. But Joe Fan? They haven't emotionaly or financially vested yet.

And it's not hard to see why. Think about it. Most fans think the manager is a moron. They have one of the lowest payrolls in all of baseball. They were forced to sign has beens like Dellucci, Nixon, Oldberto while our AL competitors signed big name guys like Sheffield and Matsuzaka. The team sucked em back in two years ago, then ripped their eyes out with the 7th biggest statistical collapse in the 140 year history of the sport over the seasons final week.

Joe Fan is distracted by all of that, and isn't even looking closely enough to see and realize that this is one of the best teams in all of baseball. With legitimate title aspirations for a franchise that hasn't won one in 59 years.

And then there is The Dolan Factor. A large segment of the fan base (20% on sites like this, 60% of Joe Fans) simply resents the Dolans. All they see is that the payroll once was once the 4th highest in baseball. And we were winners. Now, it's the 7th lowest (even lower in past years). And we haven't been contenders since Clinton was still getting blown in the White House. And Jacobs owned the team.

One fan put it very well to me in an email when he said the following after reading the excellent pieces by Benz and Cousineau.

"If Larry Dolan is only willing to spend his money on the team when its absolutely necessary, why shouldn't I do the same? I won't even think about spending a penny at that stadium until September."
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Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:44 pm

Swerb wrote:Really, for me, it comes down to just a couple things with the attendance issue.

You have sizable chunk of fans that resent the Dolans. And you have another chunk (many not in the Anti-Dolan Group) that just doesn't believe in this team.

All the people that cite the northeast Ohio economic swoon, or competition with the Cavs and Browns for the sports entertainment dollars ... I don't buy that. This city is absolutely starving for a winner. When they feel they have one in town, they will show up in big numbers at the box office.

But the masses just aren't buying in yet. The people dedicated enough to frequent sites like this are buying in for the most part. But Joe Fan? They haven't emotionaly or financially vested yet.

And it's not hard to see why. Think about it. Most fans think the manager is a moron. They have one of the lowest payrolls in all of baseball. They were forced to sign has beens like Dellucci, Nixon, Oldberto while our AL competitors signed big name guys like Sheffield and Matsuzaka. The team sucked em back in two years ago, then ripped their eyes out with the 7th biggest statistical collapse in the 140 year history of the sport over the seasons final week.

Joe Fan is distracted by all of that, and isn't even looking closely enough to see and realize that this is one of the best teams in all of baseball. With legitimate title aspirations for a franchise that hasn't won one in 59 years.

And then there is The Dolan Factor. A large segment of the fan base (20% on sites like this, 60% of Joe Fans) simply resents the Dolans. All they see is that the payroll once was once the 4th highest in baseball. And we were winners. Now, it's the 7th lowest (even lower in past years). And we haven't been contenders since Clinton was still getting blown in the White House. And Jacobs owned the team.

One fan put it very well to me in an email when he said the following after reading the excellent pieces by Benz and Cousineau.

"If Larry Dolan is only willing to spend his money on the team when its absolutely necessary, why shouldn't I do the same? I won't even think about spending a penny at that stadium until September."


To that fans point Swerb, and how it is applicable to what some in this thread have posted...

Dolan is running the team like a business. Therefore, a significant portion of the fans are treating it the same.

Those of you who are asking the FANS to do more as far as supporting the team....well, you would have more fans willing to make sacrifices if a guy like Cuban was running the squad - a guy that is willing to ignore the bottom line at times.

It is unfortunate that the game is such that the better owners can't really use their teams as a business if they want to succeed, especially in this market, but, that's how it is.

So, if the guy heading the operation is telling me, in so many words, "support my business and I can afford a good product..." I say, from a strcitly business standpoint, nonsense. If the guy stepped out of the business box for a second and let the fans know he's willing to do a little extra for an excellent product, than fans might be willing to give him an "advance"

Dolan has given the fans zip. He'll get out of it what he puts in.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:06 am

Boy, you go away for a week...

Actually, I think that the Cleveland attendance issue is pretty easy to understand. More than any place I have ever lived (Philly, KC, Wash DC, Columbus and Sacramento) Cleveland has a massive doom complex. I get around a lot, to many different cities, and have had the pleasure of being around for some time now, so I get to actually "feel" the differences between areas.

To overcome this problem, Cleveland baseball and basketball teams need to be built around a mega star or two to be successful. Cleveland needs to have a "hero" to call their own. In the 1990's, Ramirez, Thome and Belle were the hometown hero's, and the attendance reflected this support. Fans believed that with the team finances, Ramirez and Thome would be career Indians. Today, the retention of hero's such as Sabathia and Hafner are in doubt, so the fans don't grow too attached to their players. And the attendance reflects this lack of attachment. Cleveland wants to "love" their heros.

Nothing at all wrong with this, but it clearly is a fairly unique attribute to the area. For some reason, VMart doesn't seem to generate this love, just CC, Pronk and Grady. And most fans view themselves as currently rooting for future Red Sox and Yankees.
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Unread postby Duane Kuiper » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:36 pm

sarah

124 consecutive seasons without a pro championship kind of wears you down. Makes you doubtful. And then you have the collapse in the 1999 PO and not making the PO in 2005 kind of twisted the knife in your back. There is also The Drive, The Fumble, The Shot.

BTW Philly is 2nd with 96.
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Unread postby furls » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:30 pm

Wow Art, Great take and very eloquently written.



I agree, but I have to say that you have to consider the economic situation of Cleveland at least to some degree. Is it the major reason, no. Actually I think it is more the doom and gloom attitude than anything else.

Here is some light economic reading on Cleveland and its recent economic history for any that are interested. Cassano was a bit to cursory in his dismissal of that position, a lot has changed economically in Cleveland in the last 13 years.

http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/Tr ... 051107.cfm

http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/Tr ... 051707.cfm

http://www.clevelandfed.org/Research/Co ... 021507.cfm

from the latest Census data: Cleveland has the lowest Median income of any major city in the country.

For counties with 250,000 or more people in 2005, median household income ranged from $98,483 in Loudoun County, Va., to $24,501 in Hidalgo County, Texas. (The estimate for Loudoun County, Va., was not significantly different from the estimate for Fairfax County, Va. Also, the estimate for Hidalgo County, Texas, was not significantly different from the estimate for Cameron County, Texas.) For cities of similar size, median household incomes ranged from $71,560 in Plano, Texas, to $24,105 in Cleveland. (The estimate for Plano, Texas, was not significantly different from the estimate for San Jose, Calif. Also, the estimate for Cleveland was not significantly different from the estimate for Miami.


http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/Co ... 6/0201.pdf

To say that money is not a consideration when consuming nonessentials in a economically depressed area is a bit crazy. Is this the prime factor? No, but does it keep tens of thousands of fans away per season sure. Ticket prices have increased across the board in excess of 100% since 1996, while median wages have remained nearly stagnant since 1998.
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Unread postby swerb » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:21 pm

I'll say this. Seems like half the people I shared beers with before Cavs playoff games were poor dudes that found a way to pony up a couple hundy for seats.

I see your point Furls, but I believe it only to be a minor factor. When we believe we have a winner in this town, people deficit spend to see that team. They just don't believe yet.
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Unread postby furls » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:49 pm

I'll say this. Seems like half the people I shared beers with before Cavs playoff games were poor dudes that found a way to pony up a couple hundy for seats.


Sure, absolutely, but ponying up a couple of hundred for playoff tickets is quite a bit different than trying to sell 15,000 more tickets to a regular season game. I have some disposable income, so I don't sweat the cost of a ticket, but I am also aware that there are others that have to make some tough choices to go.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:27 pm

Thanks Furls, and good exchanges on this topic.

So let me take this problem out to a further extreme, what happens if attendance stays in the bottom 5-6 of baseball for the next 10 or so years. For the purpose of this discussion, lets assume current economic and population trends stay in their current directions.

With the expansion of other metro areas such as Charlotte, Portland, Las Vegas, Austin, San Antonio and Sacramento (which just passed Cincinnati in metro area size), and the fact that the stadium will be 23 years old in 10 years, do you think it is possible that the team would move?
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Unread postby ArtGold » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:28 pm

Thanks Furls, and good exchanges on this topic.

So let me take this problem out to a further extreme, what happens if attendance stays in the bottom 5-6 of baseball for the next 10 or so years. For the purpose of this discussion, lets assume current economic and population trends stay in their current directions.

With the expansion of other metro areas such as Charlotte, Portland, Las Vegas, Austin, San Antonio and Sacramento (which just passed Cincinnati in metro area size), and the fact that the stadium will be 23 years old in 10 years, do you think it is possible that the team would move?
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Unread postby pup » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:16 pm

There are other teams that would be more likely to move, but of course we can never say never anymore.

There is no reason for this team to stay in the bottom of attendance, unless it stays in the bottom of payroll.

23 in attendance.
25 in payroll.

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