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Cleveland Indians & MLB

Talk about parity.

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Talk about parity.

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:27 pm

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/standings?date=20070701&type=reg&br=9&year=2007&order=false&st=2

A difference of 3.5 games from the top of the division leaders list to the bottom?

The worst team in the league has a .383 winning % and is only 19.5 games out from the top spot.

14 teams with 40+ wins, only 1 of them with 50.

13 teams with 39 losses or less, 11 of them have 33 or less, with every team in the league having at least 30.

Best winning % is .620 owned by only 1 team.

MLB is on pace for just one 100 win team and only one 100 loss team.

This is what baseball wanted, and now they have it.
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Unread postby furls » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:03 pm

Biggest problem I have with the current MLB structure is that the same teams are going to be in the running for those 100 win and 100 loss season most years. Teams like the Tribe are going to have to be 5X better run than the big pay rolls to compete consistently.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:36 pm

Furls wrote:Biggest problem I have with the current MLB structure is that the same teams are going to be in the running for those 100 win and 100 loss season most years. Teams like the Tribe are going to have to be 5X better run than the big pay rolls to compete consistently.


True, although some of those big payroll teams are falling on their face. The Yankees are a prime example as a team that relies too much on free agent talent.

The farm system provides the best hope for the small markets. An org like the Tribe can handle that. I was listening to ESPN Radio yesterday and they were talking about KC heading in the right direction too.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:43 pm

Furls wrote:Biggest problem I have with the current MLB structure is that the same teams are going to be in the running for those 100 win and 100 loss season most years. Teams like the Tribe are going to have to be 5X better run than the big pay rolls to compete consistently.


Exactly. When it comes right down to it, at the core, baseball is a game. Games generally need to be fair. Major League Baseball, as structured, is not.

There is no reason, in this day and age, that they can't figure out a way for the smaller markets not to jump thru hoops.

Baseball is a mess.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:05 am

Lead Pipe wrote:Exactly. When it comes right down to it, at the core, baseball is a game. Games generally need to be fair. Major League Baseball, as structured, is not.

There is no reason, in this day and age, that they can't figure out a way for the smaller markets not to jump thru hoops.

Baseball is a mess.


Baseball has had a champion from each division over the past six years. Diamondbacks, Angels, Marlins, Red Sox, White Sox, and Cardinals. MLB has also had a larger percentage of teams in the hunt for the postseason later than all the other sports leagues.

There's some inequity, but baseball is less of a mess than most sports. The farm system is the equalizer and the free agent market oscillates. We're coming off a high priced market, but the prices do drop too. All the other sports force increases in salary because of their artificial controls. It's why the NFL has become the unwatchable mess that it is. I know it's so popular, but last I looked it was baseball that was gaining every year in the TV ratings while even the beloved NFL has seen declines.

Baseball's parity is watchable because much of it is caused by good scouting and development. The NFL, however, is all about using free agents to build. All the NFL teams work a lot like the Yankees, picking up the high priced prostitutes in the offseason. I think the NFL system is the worst because of the hard cap, giving teams no flexibility or ability to go over the cap to re-sign their own players.

Doesn't help that the NFLPA treats their players like crap compared to all the other sports. No guaranteed contracts. An owner can cut you while you can't leave the team at well. The worst pension plan in sports. Drug use that's just as rampant as baseball's yet the NFL is much better at covering it up. What a mess the No Fun League is.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:32 am

Mr. MacPhisto wrote:
Lead Pipe wrote:Exactly. When it comes right down to it, at the core, baseball is a game. Games generally need to be fair. Major League Baseball, as structured, is not.

There is no reason, in this day and age, that they can't figure out a way for the smaller markets not to jump thru hoops.

Baseball is a mess.


Baseball has had a champion from each division over the past six years. Diamondbacks, Angels, Marlins, Red Sox, White Sox, and Cardinals. MLB has also had a larger percentage of teams in the hunt for the postseason later than all the other sports leagues.

There's some inequity, but baseball is less of a mess than most sports. The farm system is the equalizer and the free agent market oscillates. We're coming off a high priced market, but the prices do drop too. All the other sports force increases in salary because of their artificial controls. It's why the NFL has become the unwatchable mess that it is. I know it's so popular, but last I looked it was baseball that was gaining every year in the TV ratings while even the beloved NFL has seen declines.

Baseball's parity is watchable because much of it is caused by good scouting and development. The NFL, however, is all about using free agents to build. All the NFL teams work a lot like the Yankees, picking up the high priced prostitutes in the offseason. I think the NFL system is the worst because of the hard cap, giving teams no flexibility or ability to go over the cap to re-sign their own players.

Doesn't help that the NFLPA treats their players like crap compared to all the other sports. No guaranteed contracts. An owner can cut you while you can't leave the team at well. The worst pension plan in sports. Drug use that's just as rampant as baseball's yet the NFL is much better at covering it up. What a mess the No Fun League is.


Did you type this post with a straight face?
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Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:49 am

Baseball's parity is watchable because much of it is caused by good scouting and development. The NFL, however, is all about using free agents to build. All the NFL teams work a lot like the Yankees, picking up the high priced prostitutes in the offseason. I think the NFL system is the worst because of the hard cap, giving teams no flexibility or ability to go over the cap to re-sign their own players.

Doesn't help that the NFLPA treats their players like crap compared to all the other sports. No guaranteed contracts. An owner can cut you while you can't leave the team at well. The worst pension plan in sports. Drug use that's just as rampant as baseball's yet the NFL is much better at covering it up. What a mess the No Fun League is.


Wow- Hard to know where to begin in a post riddled with holes. Guess I'll just pick a random paragraph or two.

Good scouting and development? The Indians are a mid-market team that seemingly would need to rely on that I guess. Although I count Garko, CC and Francisco as the only guys on the roster they actually drafted. All others were either signed as free agents or signed and developed in another organization.
Even in organization as woefully inadequate as the 'New' Browns, they have a higher percentage of players acquired via the draft than the Indians do.

The hard cap doesn't even the playing field and make scouting and development more important? Everyone has the same amount of money to spend and how you spend it is critical. The Raiders and the Steelers and the Patriots and the Browns all have the same cash to work with. Why are the Steelers and the Patriots consistently contending and the Raiders and Browns are dregs? Bad luck? I don't see it.

And with all due respect, I'm a fan of no guaranteed contracts. I doubt you have one. I know I don't. You produce or you look for another job. Not sure how that is remotely unfair given that 99.9% of us are working under those terms.

And again, I'd say that the NFL has dealt with the performance enhancing drugs and, recently, behavioral issues, more consistently than other sports. Goodell at least recognized the behavioral issues and it's effect on perception. Baseball continues to live under the "whistling past the graveyard" method. If we shut up and don't talk about it, maybe it will go away.

I understand you may be a bigger fan of baseball and basketball than you are of football. I'm a bigger fan of baseball too. But I think your comments on the state of the game and watchability and pretty much everything else are way off.
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Unread postby furls » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:28 pm

Doesn't help that the NFLPA treats their players like crap compared to all the other sports. No guaranteed contracts. An owner can cut you while you can't leave the team at well. The worst pension plan in sports. Drug use that's just as rampant as baseball's yet the NFL is much better at covering it up. What a mess the No Fun League is.


I love that aspect of the NFL. If you turn into a stiff, you get cut. Get fat? you get cut. Turn into a clubhouse cancer? You get cut. Stop producing for some reason or another? You get cut.

Geez sounds a lot like life.

The hard cap in the NFL is great. Does it force hard player decisions? Yep, but it also forces a level playing field with unmatched parity and forces responsibility onto the owndership. Furhtermore, I would say that a league with a hard cap further underscores the importance of scouting and development. If you make a couple of big mistakes, you cannot buy your way out of it.
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Unread postby BruceK » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:48 pm

" Although I count Garko, CC and Francisco as the only guys on the roster they actually drafted. "

Jhonny, Victor, and I'm pretty sure Ferd Cabrera and Betancourt, too.
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Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:07 pm

BruceK wrote:" Although I count Garko, CC and Francisco as the only guys on the roster they actually drafted. "

Jhonny, Victor, and I'm pretty sure Ferd Cabrera and Betancourt, too.


Nope-

Undrafted free agents out of the Dominican/South America for the first three and Bettancourt was the same by the Red Sox a long time ago (he must have been about 8 when the Red Sox took him in '93 or '94).

Not saying you don't have to scout and develop for those guys, because you do. But it's a small percentage of guys you scout and develop that you employ at the major league level.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:16 pm

Peeker643 wrote:
Wow- Hard to know where to begin in a post riddled with holes. Guess I'll just pick a random paragraph or two.

Good scouting and development? The Indians are a mid-market team that seemingly would need to rely on that I guess. Although I count Garko, CC and Francisco as the only guys on the roster they actually drafted. All others were either signed as free agents or signed and developed in another organization.


Acquiring players via trade would fall into the "good scouting" category. Why did the Indians get Travis Hafner for cheap from Texas while no one else did? Hmmm, good scouting?

What about players they found in Latin America that don't get drafted? Carmona? Peralta? Martinez? Good scouting, my friend.

Why do you think Shapiro wanted Sizemore included in the Colon deal when many of the experts never figured he'd be the key component in that trade? Hmmm, good scouting?

Even in organization as woefully inadequate as the 'New' Browns, they have a higher percentage of players acquired via the draft than the Indians do.


So what? I don't judge a team on how many players they keep from draft day. For one, baseball is very different because players out of the draft don't go right into MLB. It happens so very rarely.

The hard cap doesn't even the playing field and make scouting and development more important? Everyone has the same amount of money to spend and how you spend it is critical. The Raiders and the Steelers and the Patriots and the Browns all have the same cash to work with. Why are the Steelers and the Patriots consistently contending and the Raiders and Browns are dregs? Bad luck? I don't see it.


It does have a role in the NFL. I never denied it. But I despise that the NFL has no loopholes allowed for teams to maintain a talent level. I also despise the non-guaranteed contracts because they are unfair.

And with all due respect, I'm a fan of no guaranteed contracts. I doubt you have one. I know I don't. You produce or you look for another job. Not sure how that is remotely unfair given that 99.9% of us are working under those terms.


We're not working under the NFL terms. Let's say your job has got you by the balls. They can get rid of you at anytime but you can't leave the job to find better pay or a better situation at any time. If the NFL wanted to be more like real life then I say everyone should only get a one year deal EVERY YEAR. Either use a real contract where both parties are required to fulfill the deal or cut every one loose every year.

And again, I'd say that the NFL has dealt with the performance enhancing drugs and, recently, behavioral issues, more consistently than other sports. Goodell at least recognized the behavioral issues and it's effect on perception. Baseball continues to live under the "whistling past the graveyard" method. If we shut up and don't talk about it, maybe it will go away.


No, football shoves it under the rug and doesn't talk about it because there aren't a lot of whistle blowers. There's plenty of discussion about it being much worse in football than any other sport but football was pro-active with the drug testing to make themselves look good.

The NFL is a slick marketing machine that makes its fans feel all warm and fuzzy, but it's really an empty shell. I have to congratulate the NFL on brainwashing the masses and doing a good job of it. It's amazing how many people tune in to watch the full 12-15 minutes of real action that happens during every football game. There's a lot more commercials than there is actual time that the football is live. Genius. PT Barnum did say a sucker was born every minute and the NFL is proof of that.

I understand you may be a bigger fan of baseball and basketball than you are of football. I'm a bigger fan of baseball too. But I think your comments on the state of the game and watchability and pretty much everything else are way off.


I was once a much, much, much bigger fan of football and the NFL in general. When you work in the sports industry and work closely with an NFL team as I did with the Bucs you begin to see the sheen come off.

I've worked with MLB, NBA, and NFL teams. One MLB team was bad, but Naimoli was considered one of the most horrible owners out there. My dealings with the Marlins were actually quite good. The Magic were the same.

I've talked with the management and coaching of all teams. The NFL is the dirtiest, most disgusting of the bunch. You'd be amazed at the stuff I know that goes on behind the scenes. Baseball does have it's problems and most of them revolve around union resistance. The NFL, OTOH, gets to mow over whomever they please. They're the Hitler and Stalin of sports, totalitarian dictators that can do whatever they please. They're also the best at hiding things. I've heard of quite a few bribes coming for the NFL front office to make sure certain people don't talk about the HGH and steroid use or the WIDESPREAD use of amphetamines before every game. They bribe the press too. Networks that cover them have to be careful because the NFL will withdraw quite a bit of their coverage ability if they go too far into negative reporting.

You keep drinking the Kool-Aid. I really do like the sport of football but I've grown to dislike the NFL. Baseball is my favorite and MLB has its problems, but personal experience with the three main leagues tells me that the NFL is much better at hiding things and much more devious.
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Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:38 pm

We're not working under the NFL terms. Let's say your job has got you by the balls. They can get rid of you at anytime but you can't leave the job to find better pay or a better situation at any time. If the NFL wanted to be more like real life then I say everyone should only get a one year deal EVERY YEAR. Either use a real contract where both parties are required to fulfill the deal or cut every one loose every year.


Sure they can. Just like you can go from working in real estate to working in insurance or banking or anything else. Those guys can leave the employ of the NFL at any time they so choose.

The NFL is a slick marketing machine that makes its fans feel all warm and fuzzy, but it's really an empty shell. I have to congratulate the NFL on brainwashing the masses and doing a good job of it. It's amazing how many people tune in to watch the full 12-15 minutes of real action that happens during every football game. There's a lot more commercials than there is actual time that the football is live. Genius. PT Barnum did say a sucker was born every minute and the NFL is proof of that.


They're all slick marketing machines. And the 12 or 15 minutues of action is comparable to the amount of time a ball is in play or a play is being made in baseball.
To take it a step further, the 20 seconds the Cavs run off the shot clock before giving the ball to LBJ with 4 seconds left should also be counted as downtime since nothing is going on.

Acquiring players via trade would fall into the "good scouting" category. Why did the Indians get Travis Hafner for cheap from Texas while no one else did? Hmmm, good scouting?

What about players they found in Latin America that don't get drafted? Carmona? Peralta? Martinez? Good scouting, my friend.

Why do you think Shapiro wanted Sizemore included in the Colon deal when many of the experts never figured he'd be the key component in that trade? Hmmm, good scouting?


I already said that. I wholeheartedly agree. But your initial point was that "baseball's parity is more watchable because much of it is caused by good scouting and development." I'm not even sure what exactly that means, I'm not sure parity is actually watchable and I'm not sure how saying that organizations recognize talent in other organizations serves to prove that point. The Browns and Cavs also recognized talent in guys like Pavlovic, Varejao, Jamaal Lewis and Eric Steinbach.

I do know that Pacman Jones and Chris Henry are seeing a very real effort made by the NFL to curb the bad behavior of players. I don't see baseball taking those steps.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:10 pm

Peeker643 wrote:
Sure they can. Just like you can go from working in real estate to working in insurance or banking or anything else. Those guys can leave the employ of the NFL at any time they so choose.


Good way to dance around that one. While some do end up signing a non-compete clause in real life, it still doesn't work in the NFL context. You're stuck with a team if you sign a contract but the team isn't stuck with you. Hardly fair. As I said, guaranteed contracts or one year deals would be best. There was a bit of a push for guaranteed contracts during the last CBA negotiations. That would really make the hard cap entertaining while greatly increasing the need for good scouting and salary management.

They're all slick marketing machines. And the 12 or 15 minutues of action is comparable to the amount of time a ball is in play or a play is being made in baseball.
To take it a step further, the 20 seconds the Cavs run off the shot clock before giving the ball to LBJ with 4 seconds left should also be counted as downtime since nothing is going on.


Nope, because that 12-15 minutes is "in play" time in football. The ball is "in play" a lot during baseball. Unless there's a a timeout in baseball the ball is live. You can throw out runners, etc during that whole period. In football the ball is only "in play" from the snap to the whistle. Sometimes there's as little as 10 minutes worth of that.

In basketball the ball is mostly "in play" whenever the clock is running. There is some inactivity when the ball is being tossed in sometimes, but you get to see around 48 minutes of "in play" action in basketball. Hockey and soccer are the same - most of the time the ball is live.


I already said that. I wholeheartedly agree. But your initial point was that "baseball's parity is more watchable because much of it is caused by good scouting and development." I'm not even sure what exactly that means, I'm not sure parity is actually watchable and I'm not sure how saying that organizations recognize talent in other organizations serves to prove that point. The Browns and Cavs also recognized talent in guys like Pavlovic, Varejao, Jamaal Lewis and Eric Steinbach.


Yes, but the free agents with a performance history are very different. Pavlovic and Varejao are comparable and there's a lot of that in basketball.

Recognizing talent in other orgs does take good scouting in baseball and sometimes good development. The Tribe spotted Grady and liked him. Sizemore spent more time in Cleveland's system than in Montreal's, so Cleveland may not have drafted him but they did more development. Would he have become the same player in the Expos/Nationals org? Who knows? What we do know is that Cleveland didn't draft him but their scouting and development have played a major role in his success. This is unique to baseball because of their vast farm system.

Cliff Lee was primarily developed with Montreal, but he did spend time in the Indians' farm system. He saw all of his AAA time with the Indians. He already was on a good path when the Tribe got him, but they scouted him and polished him off before he became a regular starter.

I think these cases all fit into the scouting and player development angle. We do know that the Indians are one of the best orgs at scouting and developing talent out of Latin America.

I do know that Pacman Jones and Chris Henry are seeing a very real effort made by the NFL to curb the bad behavior of players. I don't see baseball taking those steps.


Because baseball has a stronger union and isn't run by fascists.

The NFL has done fantastic with their public crackdown on multiple arrest players. They can do that because the Commish has nearly carte blanche when it comes to discipline.

I seem to see the NFL players cause more disruption and get arrested more too. Part of that may be due to the rampant drug use in the NFL that's not supposed to exist due to "random" drug screenings that are usually not random. Players are usually alerted ahead of time but not via official channels.

When the NFL stops alerting players to drug tests through "rumor" channels, stops also planting people that help players know how to throw the tests off, and start testing for amphetamines before each game then I'll give them credit. Right now they are presenting a great public face while threatening anyone who tries to tattle on them. The NFL is run like the mob. It's such a great organization.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:46 pm

A few things;

-The NFL an unwatchable mess? You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but millions think otherwise. And, as far as baseball gaining in recent years, that's only because their multiple work stoppages drive them into a valley that they have to climb out of every 5 years. The real question is how did the NFL zip by them?

-The hard cap is worse than an unregulated open market as far as keeping your own players. Look, you might not like the hard cap, but it's much better as far as equalling markets out than zero cap at all. What the hell is A-Rod supposed to say when some hump offers him 252 mil?

-In the big money era of luxury boxes and cable tv contracts, when it is all said and done, you will see a huge advantage to big market teams. The Yankees will stumble into buying the right combination and go on another 5 year run during this time far more often than a small market tream will. The small market teams actually won't be able to sustain runs, they need to win when they have the chance and rebuild. Look at the last number of years, The Yankees teams, Florida buying championships abd disbanding, Arizona buying championships....even last year - Eckstein, Rolen, Edmonds etc.

-Major league baseball has had zero complaints of how they distribute money to their retirees? Not so much.

-Major League Baseball hired a clown to run the game. Not only a clown, but a clown with personal interest and gain.

-Major League Baseball sat on it's ass, when everyone with half a brain knew steroids were saturating it. When you consider 35% of the league is from Venezuela and the Domincan, where you can buy them cheaply over the counter....might wanted to nip that mess in the bud otherwise...

-...the most hallowed record in a record driven game will be shrouded in embarrasement.

-An exhibition determines home field for the World Series.

-The strong players union that you speak of has done more harm than good. This is one of the main reason it has fallen behind other games

I actually can't believe this argument. The fact that the system allows a team to pay two players more than another is paying it's entire roster is horrrible. The fact that someone could possibly see that as just is...well... I don't even know what to say.

Major League baseball hasn't operated on a FAIR playing field in years.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:35 pm

Mr. MacPhisto wrote:It's why the NFL has become the unwatchable mess that it is.


You can't be serious, can you???? TV ratings, as well as ticket sales continue to go thru the roof for the NFL.

I love baseball & have for over 3 decades, but the huge salary/revenue gap has me turned off to MLB. After the last CBA where revenue sharing decreased instead of a much, much needed increase, I decided to stop giving any of my $ to MLB. I'll still follow the Tribe & MLB on cable, but no more going to games, Extra Innings package, etc.

What I love about the NFL is that all 30 teams have an actual chance at winning it all & they can actually keep their home grown stars.

If Tomlinson played for the Padres instead of the Chargers, there's no way that the Padres could hang on to him. Ditto for Favre if he played for the Brewers instead of the Packers. Ditto for Peyton Manning if MLB had a team in Indy. Manning, Favre, LT would be playing for the Bankees, Mets, Bosox, usual suspects that MLB bows down to.

The past 2 Super Bowls have had teams from 1 large market...Chicago & 3 small markets...Indy, Seattle & Pittsburgh. Even if a team like the Pirates had a good front office, they could compete for a while & then the usual suspects would raid them of their stars.

Teams like the Tribe, Twins & Brewers may be doing well now, but it's only a matter of time before their rosters are raided by the huge markets.

CC has a max of 16 months in a Tribe uniform...probably less. Ditto for Santana & Hunter in Minny. If Fielder, Hardy & co. continue their success, they won't be long in Milwaukee either.

MLB wants all of the star players to play in the mega markets & they bend over backwards to make sure that it happens. Due to the CBA of last year, stars flocking to the mega markets will only escalate in the next few years.

They can have it. Give me the NFL every day of the week.
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Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:08 pm

Good way to dance around that one. While some do end up signing a non-compete clause in real life, it still doesn't work in the NFL context. You're stuck with a team if you sign a contract but the team isn't stuck with you. Hardly fair. As I said, guaranteed contracts or one year deals would be best. There was a bit of a push for guaranteed contracts during the last CBA negotiations. That would really make the hard cap entertaining while greatly increasing the need for good scouting and salary management.


LeCharles Bentley is free to go paint houses at any time he wants to go.
Same with Gary Baxter. He can apply for a valet job or as an engineer with NASA today shouud he so choose. No one is frcing them to work in the NFL.

It would really blow to be stuck like those guys are stuck and it's just peachy that the Browns aren't stuck paying them. Thank God for that cash you freed up.

In basketball the ball is mostly "in play" whenever the clock is running. There is some inactivity when the ball is being tossed in sometimes, but you get to see around 48 minutes of "in play" action in basketball. Hockey and soccer are the same - most of the time the ball is live.


Apparently the comedy was lost in translation. I was alluding to the somewhat stagnant motion offense the Cavs claim to play.


The NFL has done fantastic with their public crackdown on multiple arrest players. They can do that because the Commish has nearly carte blanche when it comes to discipline.


I prefer this method to no method whatsoever. It may not work in the long run. But at least someone is stepping up and saying "If you want to be part of that world, you're not part of ours." Might still be able to save the career of Elijah Dukes and the life of his punch-drunk wife if you adopt a wee bit more of the fascist approach you find so distateful. The only bad part is that I at least knew where Pacman Jones on Sundays in the fall. Now he could be terrorizing any neighborhood bowling alley or strip club.

Believe me, I understand where you're coming from. We disagree. Which is fine. To show there's no hard feelings, the next time I'm watching some good parity, I'll have you over for a beer.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:32 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:A few things;

-The NFL an unwatchable mess? You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but millions think otherwise.

In the poster's defense, he is a Browns fan: the Browns ARE an unwatchable mess.
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Steve Buffum
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Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:25 pm

Mr. MacPhisto wrote:Doesn't help that the NFLPA treats their players like crap compared to all the other sports. No guaranteed contracts. An owner can cut you while you can't leave the team at well.


Gentlemen, I believe we've narrowed down Mac's identity to one of Pig Miller, Yogi Stewart, or Cedric Henderson.
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