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Very good article today Sykes...

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Very good article today Sykes...

Unread postby jjgmyers » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:35 am

I agree with everything you've said. What also everyone seems to not mention from what I've read on here is how fucking bad the Roberto Alomar trade was. At the time he was the premiere second baseman in all of baseball and the greatest in my lifetime up to that point. If I recall correctly, it was Jerrod Riggan (the new lights out, 8th Inning set up guy) not sure if he lasted a whole season with us. Matt Lawton (who we signed for 7 mil per year) Anyone know what that cat's up to these days? And the main ingredient in the entire deal, the 5 tool phenom, the next Willie Mays, noneother then................Alex freaking Escobar. There might of been another stiff or two invloved, but I can't remember.

Just think if Shapiro did his homework and actually took the time to study their entire minor league roster and not go by what everyone else was saying about Escobar. We could of easily had David Wright and Jose Reyes. Just think what this lineup would be!!!!

Shapiro is very Overrated

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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:04 am

It was Matt Lawton, Jerrod Riggan. Billy Traber, Alex Escobar, and there was someone else that i can't think of.
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Re: Very good article today Sykes...

Unread postby rk » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:50 am

Shapiro is very Overrated


Damn straight. That article was a great example of a balanced and comprehensive look at this past offseason.

Sincerely,

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Unread postby hermanfontenot » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:13 pm

Matt Lawton (who we signed for 7 mil per year) Anyone know what that cat's up to these days?


Probably about 260.
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Unread postby jjgmyers » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:13 pm

It was Matt Lawton, Jerrod Riggan. Billy Traber, Alex Escobar, and there was someone else that i can't think of.


So it was no one who actually hepled us win games is what you're saying?
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Re: Very good article today Sykes...

Unread postby Babrook » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:13 pm

rk wrote:
Shapiro is very Overrated


Damn straight. That article was a great example of a balanced and comprehensive look at this past offseason.

Sincerely,

Josh Barfield
San Diego Padre


A few good moves doesn't cancel out a lot of questionable ones.

Barfield was one of his best moves.

Wright and Reyes on the Indians would be sick. That means no Jhonny, though. If Wright was at third, hopefully Blake would be in Right, not Nixon.
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Unread postby jjgmyers » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:18 pm

Damn straight. That article was a great example of a balanced and comprehensive look at this past offseason.


Sincerely,

Josh Barfield
San Diego Padre


One and half good months (he was terrible in April and the beginning of May) constitutes in your mind that he's a hall of famer already?

It's WAY to early to chalk that one up yet
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Unread postby Babrook » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:22 pm

jjgmyers wrote:
Damn straight. That article was a great example of a balanced and comprehensive look at this past offseason.


Sincerely,

Josh Barfield
San Diego Padre


One and half good months (he was terrible in April and the beginning of May) constitutes in your mind that he's a hall of famer already?

It's WAY to early to chalk that one up yet


Would you rather have Rouse starting at 2B? Or Luna? How about Inglett?
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Unread postby furls » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:31 pm

Damn straight. That article was a great example of a balanced and comprehensive look at this past offseason.

Sincerely,

Josh Barfield
San Diego Padre


At least the Indians appear to have a long term solution at third base,

Sincerely,

Kevin Kouzmanoff.




Don't get me wrong, I prefer Barfield to Kouzmanoff, but it is not like Barfield was free. Only time will tell whether or not this was a good deal. Unfortunately, given the recent trends.... Even if this trades pans out well and Barfield is an All-Star (I think he will be), the tribe will probably not be able to resign him, so we have to hope he peaks early.
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Unread postby Crash Davis » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Babrook wrote: Would you rather have Rouse starting at 2B? Or Luna? How about Inglett?

I personally would rather have Brandon Phillips starting at 2B.
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Unread postby rk » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:34 pm

jjgmyers wrote:It's WAY to early to chalk that one up yet


What are you talking about? I read that comprehensive article about the Indians past offseason and didn't find a mention of Josh Barfield.

Did something involving him related to the Indians offseason happen that might figure in a judgement of Shapiro? Because obviously a "Very good article" wouldn't leave off the handful of apparant good moves made by Shapiro just so it could prove a point.

Wait. Are you not happy with the production the Indians have gotten out of Mike Rouse starting at second for 71 games this season?
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Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:38 pm

What are you talking about? I read that comprehensive article about the Indians past offseason and didn't find a mention of Josh Barfield.



When did we sign Josh Barfield as a free agent?

That is when he will be in an article about free agency.

Wait. Are you not happy with the production the Indians have gotten out of Mike Rouse starting at second for 71 games this season?


No, but I may have accepted Ronnie Belliard.
Or Adam Keendy.
Or Mark DeRosa.

There are multiple ways to skin a cat. Not making that trade does not equal Mike Rouse at second base.

And Joe Inglett, at second base, would not be the end of the world. The reason he is no here as the UTILITY guy is his troubles, defensively, at the other 2 positions. He can hit and glove it just fine at second.
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Unread postby Babrook » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:43 pm

Crash Davis wrote:Babrook wrote: Would you rather have Rouse starting at 2B? Or Luna? How about Inglett?

I personally would rather have Brandon Phillips starting at 2B.


Touché.

I would too :cry :cry: ...
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Unread postby jjgmyers » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:56 pm

What are you talking about? I read that comprehensive article about the Indians past offseason and didn't find a mention of Josh Barfield
.



No, but I did find a mention of Trot Nixon, Oldberto Hernandez, David Dellucci, Keith Foulke and Jason Johnson

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Unread postby rk » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:59 pm

Pup wrote:When did we sign Josh Barfield as a free agent?

That is when he will be in an article about free agency.


Wait. Now that article was just about Free Agency? That's interesting as the first mention of free agency occurs in the 11th paragraph. However the 5th paragraph does have something akin to a subject:

What does this really mean for the Indians and their fans? It means we have a general manager who is not all that good at his job.


Since a general managers job is normally broken down into:

1) Free Agency
2) Handling of Minor League System/Drafting
3) Trades
4) Managing Coaching Staff
5) Managing Administrative Staff

It would seem that this article would be touching on more than just free agency. However if something has changed in Mark Shapiro's job description and he is now relegated to 'Free Agency Guy' then I suppose it is fair to judge him solely on his performance there.

Note that out of the 5 items there I would say he excels at 2, has a mixed track record with 2, and sucks with 1.
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Unread postby rk » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:03 pm

I'd also like to note that some Indians fans appear to be in favor of firing both Wedge and Shapiro.

Also noteworthy is the fact that the Indians have the third best record in the majors and are tied on top of arguably the best division in baseball.

Fire 'em all.
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Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:09 pm

For that matter, Mark Shapiro's job description is to put a winning product on the field.

His teams are 484-488.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

The article is about who Mark Shapiro signed this winter and what they ahve done for this team.
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Unread postby jjgmyers » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:14 pm

Since a general managers job is normally broken down into:

1) Free Agency
2) Handling of Minor League System/Drafting
3) Trades
4) Managing Coaching Staff
5) Managing Administrative Staff


1) His fee agency pickups have been astrocious
2) Somehow his drafting has been more horrendous than his free agent signings
3) Hafner is his only gem. The Colon deal would of been, but wait, didn't he give Phillips away for a case of gonorrhea?
4) Only you would think Wedge is a good manager
5) have no knowledge to comment on that part


Also noteworthy is the fact that the Indians have the third best record in the majors and are tied on top of arguably the best division in baseball.

Also noteworthy is the fact it's June 21st. I didn't know championships were won in June
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Unread postby jjgmyers » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:21 pm

on top of arguably the best division in baseball
.


That's not the case anymore. All the national media who think they know what they're talking about before the season started said that. The NL West is the toughest division in baseball
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Unread postby rk » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:23 pm

jjgmyers wrote:Also noteworthy is the fact it's June 21st. I didn't know championships were won in June


Excellent point. After all how can we fairly judge Mark Shapiro's year without waiting until the end of this astrocious season?

Let's everyone just come together and pray that the Indian players overcome the horrible management that has saddled them with themselves.
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Unread postby VultureHxC » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:31 pm

1) free agency has been average. he's gotten some decent guys as free agent pickups but no one that really helped anything (except millwood)
2) no, we only have one of the best minor league systems in baseball. i guess that qualifies as horrible. plus he's been in charge of the system while some of our best players have developed in the system
3) forget about sizemore in that colon deal? and lee has been a decent back of the rotation guy. barfield's been decent. so has shoppach. we still don't know about gutierrez but he could be something. he hasn't made any real blockbusters the past couple years but i thought that was because we wanted to stockpile our prospects and not ship them out for a guy in the last year of his contract
4) i think we know where most people stand on this
5) same as what you said

and shouldn't the dolans be getting some of the blame too by squezzing his payroll? i doubt he's been telling them he wants a low payroll. it's basically hit or miss if you can only throw 3 or 4 million at a guy. it's a lot easier when you can throw 6, 7, 8 million
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Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:44 pm

Excellent point. After all how can we fairly judge Mark Shapiro's year without waiting until the end of this astrocious season?

Let's everyone just come together and pray that the Indian players overcome the horrible management that has saddled them with themselves.


I can judge it to this point though. He has signed 6 free agents. 2 of them are dead to me. 2 of them are paramecium. 2 of them have been decent.

Some seem to take this as being anti-Indian. It is not. It is just that too many people think Shapiro walks on water around here and buy into the payroll angle that he spews. What I am saying is that with the money he had available, he could have done a better job with.

If he can't take them to the next level over the next five years, why extend him? Is there any evidence that he can get them over the hump?
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:45 pm

For the record:

Tribe sends Alomar, Danny Peoples (of/1b) and Mike Bascik (sp) to the Mets for Matt Lawton, Alex Escobar, Jerrod Riggan, Billy Traber and Earl Snyder.

With money saved, Tribe signed Ricky Guiterrez as a FA and extended Lawton's deal.

This trade didn't work out for ANY PLAYERS INVOLVED but it did have a lasting influence for the Tribe: It opened their eyes and made them realize where they had to improve their scouting and evaluation for future deals. Anyone who read Pluto's book 'Dealing' would understand that.
The result: deals that netted Travis Hafner, Grady, Cliff Lee, and others.
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Re: Very good article today Sykes...

Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:06 am

jjgmyers wrote:I agree with everything you've said. What also everyone seems to not mention from what I've read on here is how fucking bad the Roberto Alomar trade was.


Taking a look back on the Alomar trade:

"The Alomar Trade ... What Could Have Been"
http://www.theclevelandfan.com/article_ ... hp?id=1161
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:36 am

All I know is that we must assume I would have stunk in Cleveland the way I stink up Fenway now. Honestly, how many of you can say that you like last year's #2 hole hitter over me? I also rapped decently and Ben Broussard had a helluva stroke on the chords.

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Unread postby jjgmyers » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:48 am

"
The Alomar Trade ... What Could Have Been"
http://www.theclevelandfan.com/article_ ... hp?id=1161



Exactly. I missed this one when it was posted, but it's dead on. That trade should of netted us at least 2 superstars when it was all said and done.
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