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If you were GM and could do what you wanted...

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If you were GM and could do what you wanted...

Unread postby TribeinLA » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:03 am

what trade would you pull?


Mine:

Travis Hafner, Jason Michaels, and Andy Marte to Baltimore for Miguel Tejada and Eric Bedard. Then I would take Tejada and trade him to Cincy for Griffey, Jr. straight up. The Indians get a big time relief in the DH/cornerOF dept and get another ace from an imploding team. The Orioles get some much needed pop in the batting lineup, along with and an experienced left handed pitching hitter and a youthful and promising big bat and glove at 3b. The Indians then give the Cincy Reds a big name short stop/3b and also take away Griffey's upcoming chance at a huge salary year in '09(?), so they do not have to pay that (although Tejada wouldn't be cheap). In the end, Griffey's in Cleveland for two years and tejada stays in Cincy for three.
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:34 am

Hafner to the Yankees for Phillip Hughes. Cliff Lee, Jeremy Sowers, Fernando Cabrera, and Andy Marte to the Marlins for Miguel Cabrera. Cabrera goes to 3rd and Blake to first and Garko to DH. That gives us a rotation of CC, Carmona, Westbrook, Hughes, and Miller for a September run. Batting order would be Sizemore, Barfield, Victor, Cabrera, Peralta, Garko, Blake, Gutierez, Michaels/Nixon
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Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:22 am

Paul Byrd for Matt Holliday and Brian Fuentes
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Unread postby Babrook » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:41 am

Pup wrote:Paul Byrd for Matt Holliday and Brian Fuentes


Rockies aren't idiots :(.

What about Byrd+Nixon, maybe more outfielders. Go knows we have tons of them.

I doubt we could ninja Fuentes AND Holliday. Hawpe and Fuentes, on the other hand.
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Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:49 am

Babrook wrote:
Pup wrote:Paul Byrd for Matt Holliday and Brian Fuentes


Rockies aren't idiots :(.

What about Byrd+Nixon, maybe more outfielders. Go knows we have tons of them.

I doubt we could ninja Fuentes AND Holliday. Hawpe and Fuentes, on the other hand.


I was kidding. Byrd couldn't land Billie Holliday, let alone Matt Holliday and Brian Fuentes.

Nobody said it had to be realistic, did they?
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Unread postby Babrook » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:59 am

Pup wrote:
Babrook wrote:
Pup wrote:Paul Byrd for Matt Holliday and Brian Fuentes


Rockies aren't idiots :(.

What about Byrd+Nixon, maybe more outfielders. Go knows we have tons of them.

I doubt we could ninja Fuentes AND Holliday. Hawpe and Fuentes, on the other hand.


I was kidding. Byrd couldn't land Billie Holliday, let alone Matt Holliday and Brian Fuentes.

Nobody said it had to be realistic, did they?


Touché.
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Unread postby furls » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:03 pm

Oldberto and a bag of baseballs for a smaller bag of baseballs.
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Unread postby Babrook » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:09 pm

Oldberto for a Hot Dog guy in the bleachers.

Never seen one there and I'm lazy. Hot Dogs come to me or I don't eat, that simple.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:26 pm

I don't know about trades, but if I were the GM, I'd make 3 immediate changes:

1) tell the owner that I expect him to have a team salary somewhere in the middle of the pack. Spending doesn't guarantee wins, but spending like the bottom 5-6 teams in MLB all but guarantess no playoff appearances. If the manager doesn't oblige, then I'm outa there.

2) get a manager that can find his a$$ with 2 hands, can manage all personality types. Not just the experienced vet with "great clubhouse chemistry" & leads instead of whining about not having veteran leaders.

3) get a new scouting director & new minor league development personnel
so they don't screw up more kids the way they screwed up Jeremy Guthrie.
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Unread postby furls » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:33 pm

3) get a new scouting director & new minor league development personnel
so they don't screw up more kids the way they screwed up Jeremy Guthrie.


I disagree with this point. The Indians (IMO) have done a pretty good job of developing talent. I would actually say that it is the strongest part of this franchise. Sometimes guys get away, that is the nature of the game.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:35 pm

I would be careful on trades, the obvious trade to me is Hafner for Hughes. I'm just not confident the Yankees would do this deal.

On the other hand they might. They could be thinking they could pick up Santana and/or Sabathia as free agents in the 2008 off season.
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Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:40 pm

1) tell the owner that I expect him to have a team salary somewhere in the middle of the pack. Spending doesn't guarantee wins, but spending like the bottom 5-6 teams in MLB all but guarantess no playoff appearances.



You are assuming this did not already happen and the GM ignored it?
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Unread postby VultureHxC » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:43 pm

ok, to say our minor league player development personnel is bad is just ignorant. look at the guys they've developed

CC
Carmona
Betancourt
Peralta
Sizemore
Hafner
Garko
Martinez
Lee
Adam Miller
Brandon Phillips
Coco Crisp

not to mention we have a few rule 5 players other teams plucked from us like ryan church and willy taveres that aren't playing too bad. they've made stars (sizemore, cc, martinez, hafner) and solid young players (garko, betancourt, carmona, peralta, crisp, phillips, lee). just cause guthrie's having a good stretch doesn't mean he's an amazing pitcher all of a sudden. sowers had an amazing stretch at the end of last year and look at him this year
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Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:53 pm

If you were GM and could do what you wanted...



FIRE ERIC WEDGE



No idea what took so long for this to come out...
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Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:55 pm

Furls wrote:
3) get a new scouting director & new minor league development personnel
so they don't screw up more kids the way they screwed up Jeremy Guthrie.


I disagree with this point. The Indians (IMO) have done a pretty good job of developing talent. I would actually say that it is the strongest part of this franchise. Sometimes guys get away, that is the nature of the game.


Our brightest young stars came from other organizations (Grady, Barfield, Hafner) or were drafted & developed under the Hart regime (CC, Victor, Peralta)

Mirabelli is now in his 7th year with the Tribe. Who do we have that he drafted/signed &/or developed besides Carmona & Garko?

He's had tons of 1st round picks & most of them have been huge busts.

2000: Corey Smith-bust
Derek Thompson-bust

2001: Dan Denham-bust
William Horne-didn't sign
JD Martin-injury bust
Michael Conroy-bust

2002: Micah Schilling-bust
Jeremy Guthrie-bust until he moved to another organization
Matt Whitney-injury bust

2003: Michael Aubrey-injury bust
Adam Miller- 1 of our few bright spots
Brad Snyder-bust

2004-07: too early to tell.

If this is the strongest part of the franchise, then the future looks mighty dark.

The brightest part of the franchise is that Shapiro has made great trades in bringing guys like Grady, Pronk, Barfield & Marte to the Tribe. I still have faith in Marte.
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Unread postby VultureHxC » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:21 pm

you still talk about developing. so they've been developing under this regime. sizemore was playing A ball when we got him and was not considered a top prospect. he was the low ball prospect with a high ceiling. i think hafner was scouted pretty well considering it took ryan drese and einer diaz to get him and he didn't even play right away and had to fight ben broussard for a job. CC is the only guy that can be said was not drafted and developed. and yeah, their have been some busts. every team has them. but i didn't know your drafting isn't successful if you only get it out of first round talent. not to mention NONE of those guys have become major league stars, so it's not like other teams did anything with them. not every pick is surefire and that's why drafting is called an inexact science. i'd say they've done a pretty good job considering 17 or the 27 guys on the roster (2 guys are on the DL) have been in our system developing before they got to the majors (and that's not counting byrd either)
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Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:56 pm

ArtGold wrote:I would be careful on trades, the obvious trade to me is Hafner for Hughes. I'm just not confident the Yankees would do this deal.

On the other hand they might. They could be thinking they could pick up Santana and/or Sabathia as free agents in the 2008 off season.


Hell no they wouldn't do this deal. Their starting pitchers average 47 years of age and three of them are on the DL at any given time. Hughes is a young lefty with a 15-year career ahead of him. Why would they trade him for a guy they can easily sign as a free agent after next year?

I haven't researched this thoroughly, but I would try to get Crawford out of Tampa Bay. It would be hard, but a package of (1) Jason Michaels, (2) Lee or Stanford or Sowers (their choice), (3) Garko or Shoppach (their choice), and a prospect might get 'er done. Michaels is expendable if we get Crawford and they need to replace him in left. We can afford to lose a left-handed starter since we have a surplus of those, so they get Lee, Stanford, or Sowers. If Garko is included, Victor takes over at first and Shoppach becomes the starting catcher. When Marte is ready to play everyday we can always move Blake to first and Victor back to catcher if that works out better. If they would rather have Shop than Garko, then all we lose is our backup catcher, who we could replace with a minor deal.

Putting Crawford in the #2 hole after Grady and in front of Pronk, Victor, and Peralta would give us the best front end in baseball. The back end of Garko, Barfield, and Nixon/Gutierrez wouldn't be bad, either. It would probably be better then 95% of the teams in the league, in fact.

The only problem is that to pay Crawford we probably couldn't afford to re-sign Pronk or CC, so I don't know how this would play out in the long run. But for this year and next, it would be the bomb.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:29 pm

Michaels, Sowers, Garko/Shoppach and Scott Lewis/Aaron Laffey for Crawford would work for me, but not Miller or Lofgren.

If we would do a deal like this, I would need to be assured we sign Sabathia to an extension. If we don't and lose him, this could rapidly become a club struggling to play .500 ball.

Frankly, I would rather see if the Red Sox have become disenchanted with Crisp, and see if we can get him back. It would be a lot cheaper for us than Crawford in terms of annual player cost and talent to send to Boston. I would think a Francisco or Dellucci plus Stanford may be sufficient.

Look at Crisp performance as an Indian. If he could give us this again, isn't it in the range of Crawford, but at a lot lower acquisition cost?

Or, if you want to see if you can catch lightning in a bottle, give Van Every a 15 game look.
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Unread postby psk678 » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:55 pm

VultureHxC wrote:ok, to say our minor league player development personnel is bad is just ignorant. look at the guys they've developed

CC
Carmona
Betancourt
Peralta
Sizemore
Hafner
Garko
Martinez
Lee
Adam Miller
Brandon Phillips
Coco Crisp

not to mention we have a few rule 5 players other teams plucked from us like ryan church and willy taveres that aren't playing too bad. they've made stars (sizemore, cc, martinez, hafner) and solid young players (garko, betancourt, carmona, peralta, crisp, phillips, lee). just cause guthrie's having a good stretch doesn't mean he's an amazing pitcher all of a sudden. sowers had an amazing stretch at the end of last year and look at him this year


I know what you're saying about our minor league development and I agree, but all of these guys didn't come up through our farm system, we acquired them via trade.

Hafner - Rangers (Drese/Diaz trade)
Sizemore, Lee and Philips - Expos/Nats (Colon trade)
Coco Crisp - Cards (Chuck Finley trade)

But yeah, some of those guys were developed through our farm system but weren't products of the draft, or 'true farm players'.

If you look back in the past 10 or so years, we could field an all-star team based on our farm talent.
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Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:59 pm

I would rather see if the Red Sox have become disenchanted with Crisp, and see if we can get him back. It would be a lot cheaper for us than Crawford in terms of annual player cost and talent to send to Boston. I would think a Francisco or Dellucci plus Stanford may be sufficient.

Look at Crisp performance as an Indian. If he could give us this again, isn't it in the range of Crawford, but at a lot lower acquisition cost?


ArtGold, I think you're getting nostalgic here. Crisp's performance has fallen off dramatically in Boston.

2004 (Cleve) .297 BA, .790 OPS
2005 (Cleve) .300 BA, .810 OPS
2006 (Bos) .264 BA, .702 OPS
2007 (Bos) .250 BA, .662 OPS

Could he return to those 2004/05 numbers if he came back to Cleveland? I don't know, but IIRC he got hurt his first year in Boston and maybe he has never fully recovered. He is 27 and should be at the peak of his career, so I don't know what happened to the guy. But clearly he's no Carl Crawford. Look at Crawford's progression starting with his first full season at age 20:

2003 .281 BA, .671 OPS
2004 .296 BA, .781 OPS
2005 .301 BA, .820 OPS
2006 .305 BA, .830 OPS
2007 .297 BA, .827 OPS

Crawford just broke out of an 0 for 20 slump, so I assume his numbers will soon exceed his 2006 numbers. He has improved every single year he has been in the league and he's still only 25. According to Bill James, baseball players peak at age 27. I'd say that Crawford should settle in at about .310 and .850 OPS for the next five years at least.

His HR totals for the last four years have been 5, 11, 15, and 18. He should hit about 20 for the next five years.

His stolen base totals are 55, 59, 46, and 58. Consistent.

To top it off, this guy is never hurt. He's had over 600 AB's each of the last four years.

I don't know what his contract status is, but Crawford is making $4.2 million this year while Crisp is making $3.8.

Tampa may refuse to consider dealing their only legitimate star, but they're in the same division with NY and Boston, so they need more players. Getting a quality starter (Lee, Sowers, or Stanford), and starting catcher or 1B/DH (Garko or Shop), a left fielder to replace Crawford (Michaels), and a prospect (anybody but Miller or Lofgen) for a left fielder than can't win games by himself might make them a better team overall. I don't know how long Crawford is signed for, but I doubt he re-signs with them when he becomes a free agent, so they'll lose him eventually anyway.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:12 pm

Crawford's contract is $4.0 (2007), $5.25 (2008), $8.25 (2009) and a $10-11.5 club option for 2010 depending on prior year performance.

Crisp's OPS+ was 106 and 119 his two full time seasons in Cleveland, while Crawford's the past four seasons has been 105, 111, 111, 115. So from my point of view the comparison appears to be valid. I know Crawford is significantly outperforming Crisp today, but based upon his age and history, I wonder if he could get back to his Indian performance. It seems it would be far cheaper in players traded to obtain Crisp, and his salary of $5 million per season for the current and next two years is quite a bit less than Crawford's, potentially giving us a little more to sign other players.

I not claiming he is a comp today, but based upon historical performance, age, salary, player trade cost and lack of disclosed injury he appears to be a worthwhile gamble to me.
Last edited by ArtGold on Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby FUDU » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:17 pm

In the end, Griffey's in Cleveland for two years and tejada stays in Cincy for three.


...and you would want Griffey in Cleveland (2008 or beyond) why?

The days of reasoning why one would want Girffey passed long long ago.
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Unread postby BruceK » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:23 pm

I guess there's no requirement that the actions have to be realistic... so first I hire Scarlett Johannson to be my secretary......
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Unread postby jfiling » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:13 pm

Hafner for Bonds.

No, seriously. I want to win this year, and Dolan would go for it.

I'm not kidding, I mean this.
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Unread postby intenso » Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:07 pm

jfiling wrote:Hafner for Bonds.

No, seriously. I want to win this year, and Dolan would go for it.

I'm not kidding, I mean this.





nah.
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Unread postby consigliere » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:59 pm

Furls wrote:
3) get a new scouting director & new minor league development personnel
so they don't screw up more kids the way they screwed up Jeremy Guthrie.


I disagree with this point. The Indians (IMO) have done a pretty good job of developing talent. I would actually say that it is the strongest part of this franchise. Sometimes guys get away, that is the nature of the game.


Agreed 100% Furls.

There have certainly been some failures with the draft and development, but overall I think they are doing a good job.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:40 am

God, that whole Crawford bit still has me salivating. God, we would be so complete with him in our lineup. Would TB take Hafner and Marte and an arm for him? Grrrrr.....
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Unread postby Babrook » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:03 am

TribeinLA wrote:God, that whole Crawford bit still has me salivating. God, we would be so complete with him in our lineup. Would TB take Hafner and Marte and an arm for him? Grrrrr.....


They'd be idiots not to.

I don't know why, I just don't see why he's there. He dosn't fit. He's a great talent wasted in a doomed franchise.

But if he got traded...'We finally had a legit star, and let him go'. I'd give Hafner for Crawford. No more, though.
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Unread postby Prosecutor » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:58 am

ArtGold, your whole proposal hinges on the assumption that if Crisp were to come back to Cleveland he would return to being a .300 hitter. Nobody knows if that's the case or not. He's only 27, so there appears to be no reason why he can't play at the level he was at when he was 24 and 25. The question is - why has his offensive production dropped so dramatically in Boston, and is it reversible?

If Crisp has been feeling the pressure of trying to replace Johnny Damon on a high-profile franchise with big expectations, then maybe he would get back to normal if he comes back to Cleveland and just has to blend in with Grady, Pronk, Victor, and the rest of the team. IOW, he would just be one of the boys and could relax. He wouldn't be trying to fill the shoes of a departed All-Star, World Series hero, and fan favorite. He would just be an upgrade over the Michaels/Dellucci platoon. It might work.

What would Boston want for Crisp? They need a center fielder and Gutierrez would give them better defense, but probably couldn't match Coco's offense. We'd probably have to throw in a prospect. But the Red Sox are running away with the East and certainly don't need to make a trade.

I agree that Crawford would cost us a ton in terms of major league talent and prospects. I tried to construct a trade that would not deprive us of any players we don't have replacements for (Sowers or Stanford could replace Lee in the rotation, Victor could take over at 1st for Garko with Shoppach starting at catcher, and we wouldn't need Michaels in left anymore). Throw in a solid prospect and they would be getting four players, including three major league starters, for Crawford. And we would have him through 2010.

They'd never take Hafner for Crawford. Hafner is a free agent after next year and there's little chance they could sign him to an extension. Why give up four years of Crawford's career for one year of Hafner's? Besides, Crawford is five years younger, has tremendous range in left field, steals 50-60 bases a year, and hits for the same average. I wouldn't trade them straight up even if they were the same age and had identical contracts.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:40 am

Consigliere wrote:
Furls wrote:
3) get a new scouting director & new minor league development personnel
so they don't screw up more kids the way they screwed up Jeremy Guthrie.


I disagree with this point. The Indians (IMO) have done a pretty good job of developing talent. I would actually say that it is the strongest part of this franchise. Sometimes guys get away, that is the nature of the game.


Agreed 100% Furls.

There have certainly been some failures with the draft and development, but overall I think they are doing a good job.


I hope you guys are right, but after seeing how BP & Guthrie blossomed after leaving the system, I have my doubts about our developing personnel. As well as Mirabelli & his plethora of early round busts from 2000-2003.

It wouldn't surprise me a bit to see Fernando Cabrera, Franklin Gutierrez &/or Ben Francisco prosper down the road in another system. Hopefully they'll propser as members of the Tribe.
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Unread postby Charboneau » Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:39 pm

I would give Eric Wedge a lifetime contract and hire Pup to be his driver/gopher. Al Pawlowski would be the new play by play guy on radio and generally the central marketing/branding focus of the "New" Indians. I would put Dennis Eckersly in the TV booth with Rick Manning as color man. I would institute "Sitting Bull" day honoring native Americans by celebrating his victory over Custer. I'd bring back 10 cent beer night.

Oh - I would get Jose Mesa into Heritage Park. Where do I sign my contract?
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:47 pm

I would put Dennis Eckersly in the TV booth with Rick Manning as color man.

Okay, that's hilarious.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:11 pm

would give Eric Wedge a lifetime contract and hire Pup to be his driver/gopher


That would work out great, since he would NEVER make it to the park.
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