Text Size

Cleveland Indians & MLB

Sizemore and Barfield

Talk Tribe, talk baseball in this forum.

Moderators: peeker643, swerb, pup, paulcousineau

Sizemore and Barfield

Unread postby gradyin06 » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:29 am

What are your thoughts on Barfield hitting out of the 2 hole behind Sizemore? I think it's a good combo with their speed and ability to get on base.
gradyin06
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:44 pm

Unread postby VultureHxC » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:45 am

i really like it actually. if barfield can hit for .280 a year and be a doubles, gap hitter like he's supposed to be, i think it's a great fit. he'll drive in grady and put himself on base and at worse move grady over. plus he's a speed threat and can provide more RBI opportunities for the middle of the order. not to mention down the road we get or promote a prototypical leadoff hitter and move grady to third in the lineup to have all that speed at 1-2-3 makes it a formidable lineup.
VultureHxC
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 12:10 pm
Location: Medina, OH

Unread postby Steve Buffum » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:59 am

I think this:

http://www.theclevelandfan.com/article_ ... hp?id=1898

(Or, at least I did yesterday.)
User avatar
Steve Buffum
Prose Flayer
 
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:32 am
Location: Austin TX
Favorite Player: Withheld
Least Favorite Player: David Huff

Unread postby consigliere » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:05 pm

I actually like Barfield at the bottom of the lineup as a carry over to the top of the lineup, and essentially a leadoff man for Grady to drive in. Not saying I don't like Barfield at #2, because that is fine as well.....but I just really like Barfield 9th and Blake 2nd. I think that is the best combo there.
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby BruceK » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:32 pm

"if barfield can hit for .280 a year"

Batting average is meaningless when looking at a lead-off or #2 hitter - on base percentage is everything. If he can't have an OBA well north of .350, I don't want him in the 2 hole.

Also, talk about the lineup sort of depends on when the real Travis Hafner returns.
User avatar
BruceK
BJKResearch.com
 
Posts: 1023
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:45 pm
Location: Lakewood OH
Favorite Player: Reggie Dunlop
Least Favorite Player: Ogie Oglethorpe

Unread postby VultureHxC » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:36 pm

i'm guessing you didn't consider omar a good number 2 hitter than cause he didn't have an OBP "well north of .350" when he was here
VultureHxC
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 12:10 pm
Location: Medina, OH

Unread postby BruceK » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:52 pm

Most years he was above .350, and a couple of years considerably above it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/s ... yerId=2149

The two years where he had OBA of .340 and .320 he was not a good #2 hitter. But those years were the exception, not the rule.
User avatar
BruceK
BJKResearch.com
 
Posts: 1023
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:45 pm
Location: Lakewood OH
Favorite Player: Reggie Dunlop
Least Favorite Player: Ogie Oglethorpe

Unread postby ArtGold » Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:11 pm

Considering that I believe Barfield to be a .280-.300 hitter over the long term with decent power I like him batting 2nd in the lineup. I expect him to have a decent walk rate, and if you follow his year to year progression in the minors he was gradually reducing his strikeout rate. I expect him to be a very good offensive player, in the caliber of Ryne Sandberg minus a little bit of the HR power, but still good for 20 or more per season.

Average Ryne Sandberg year was .285/.344/.452 with 21 HRs, and if you drop the slugging percentage down to about .430 I think that will be Barfield.
ArtGold
 
Posts: 1182
Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: Sacramento, Ca

Unread postby pup » Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:53 pm

If Josh Barfield turns out to be Ryne Sandberg, I will be very happy.
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Unread postby consigliere » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:03 pm

Another thing I am not sure about with Barfield hitting second.....he just does not work counts. While he can go the other way, has speed, and can hit .280+.....the one thing that concerns me is how much of a free swinger he is and that he has such a poor walk-rate.
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby Steve Buffum » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:07 pm

Well, it's too early to say, but I'm as concerned about moving Blake OUT of the 2 hole as I am moving Barfield IN. Blake was wildly successful in that slot, and I'm not sure I saw any great rush to stop doing something that worked really well.

Anyone like Jhonny in the 3 slot in front of Victor? Or even 4, to give a nice L-R-L feel like:

Sizemore
Blake
Martinez
Peralta
Hafner
Garko/Shoppach
Michaels
Random Nitwit
Barfield
User avatar
Steve Buffum
Prose Flayer
 
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:32 am
Location: Austin TX
Favorite Player: Withheld
Least Favorite Player: David Huff

Unread postby paulcousineau » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:13 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:Well, it's too early to say, but I'm as concerned about moving Blake OUT of the 2 hole as I am moving Barfield IN. Blake was wildly successful in that slot, and I'm not sure I saw any great rush to stop doing something that worked really well.

Anyone like Jhonny in the 3 slot in front of Victor? Or even 4, to give a nice L-R-L feel like:

Sizemore
Blake
Martinez
Peralta
Hafner
Garko/Shoppach
Michaels
Random Nitwit
Barfield


Who would have thought that Hafner would be moved out of the #3 or #4 hole at ANY point. But, that's where we're at.

BTW, I do like this lineup.
Indians Fever...Be a Believer!
User avatar
paulcousineau
Celebrity
 
Posts: 604
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:21 am
Location: West Park

Unread postby gradyin06 » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:17 pm

How about a line-up a tad different

Sizemore
Barfield
Blake
Martinez
Hafner
Peralta
Garko
Michaels
Guttierrez
gradyin06
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:44 pm

Unread postby consigliere » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:26 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:Well, it's too early to say, but I'm as concerned about moving Blake OUT of the 2 hole as I am moving Barfield IN. Blake was wildly successful in that slot, and I'm not sure I saw any great rush to stop doing something that worked really well.


That is probably my biggest issue as well. Ok, so Hafner is struggling, so you move him down. But, why does Wedge have to move everyone else around for one guy? Blake should be hitting second, and really fits that spot well. I really like the 9-1-2 of Barfield, Sizemore, Blake and then to the heart of the order. The #2 slot limits Casey's at bats in run producing situations....well, at least in theory. It is safe to assume that hitting #2, you get less RBI opps than say #3, #4, #5, #6 and maybe even #7?

Anyone like Jhonny in the 3 slot in front of Victor? Or even 4, to give a nice L-R-L feel like:

Sizemore
Blake
Martinez
Peralta
Hafner
Garko/Shoppach
Michaels
Random Nitwit
Barfield


Peralta hit 3rd for the entire second half of 2005. He can do it. I don't care how you do it, but Peralta, Martinez, and Hafner need to be hitting 3-4-5 in some order. If Hafner ever gets hit stuff together, I think the optimal lineup is still him hitting 3rd and then you go with Victor/Peralta 4th and 5th or vice versa. Victor is having an unreal season, so maybe he is better off hitting 4th (assuming Hafner is hitting well and hitting 3rd).

If Hafner continues to struggle, then, you go with Honny 3rd, Victor 4th and Hafner 5th....

By the way, I propose we upgrade that #8 spot in the order from nitwit to at least dimwit. :-) :smile: :)
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby Steve Buffum » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:29 pm

gradyin06 wrote:How about a line-up a tad different

Sizemore
Barfield
Blake
Martinez
Hafner
Peralta
Garko
Michaels
Guttierrez

Why?
User avatar
Steve Buffum
Prose Flayer
 
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:32 am
Location: Austin TX
Favorite Player: Withheld
Least Favorite Player: David Huff

Unread postby MadThinker88 » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:32 pm

Consigliere wrote: By the way, I propose we upgrade that #8 spot in the order from nitwit to at least dimwit. :-) :smile: :)


:roll :roll: There is a motion on the floor...... will anyone else 2nd the motion so that a vote can be taken?
MadThinker88
In Tressel We Trust
 
Posts: 2634
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:01 am

Unread postby psk678 » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:38 pm

Pup wrote:If Josh Barfield turns out to be Ryne Sandberg, I will be very happy.

I'd shit the bed if Barfield turns out to be Ryno.

I like JB hitting 2nd, but like others said, his OBP is not the best in the world and thats what you look for at the top of the lineup.
User avatar
psk678
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 3:16 am
Location: parts unknown

Unread postby Prosecutor » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:07 pm

Hell no, I don't want Barfield in the #2 spot, at least not until he learns some plate discipline. AFIAC, it's all about OBP at the top of the order. Get guys on base, put pressure on the pitcher, make him pitch from the stretch, make the infielders play closer to the bags, opening up holes for ground balls to get through. Play for the big inning, get a lead, take pressure off your starter and take away the opponents running game.

Here are the OBP's for the Indians regulars as of right now:

Grady .404
Pronk .401
Victor .376
Blake .367
Garko, Peralta .360
Michaels .350
Trot .329
Looch .301
Barfield .284

Barfield has exactly eight walks in 249 at-bats, which is ridiculous. This guy hacks at anything close to the plate. He's Ronnie Belliard all over again, except he's faster and has more range in the field. I've rarely seen a player swing at so many bad pitches. Hopefully he'll grow out of that, but until he does he hits 8th or 9th on my team.

I would bat Hafner 3rd because even in the midst of a long slump his OBP is still over .400. Plus, with Victor and Peralta coming up behind him pitchers will be less likely to pitch around him. They'll go after him, which is what he needs to start hitting again; some good pitches to hit. Moving him down to 5th gives him less protection.

Here's my lineup:

Grady .404 OBP
Blake .367
Pronk .401
Victor .376
Jhonny .360
Michaels .350
Garko .360 or Shoppach when Victor plays 1st.
Barfield .284
Gutierrez

Dellucci is on the DL and I just wouldn't play Nixon right now. I'd let Gutierrez play every day in right field. His bat isn't much but I love the ground he covers and those spectacular catches, not to mention he has a gun for an arm. He's saving some runs out there, whereas Nixon's cement feet don't help the pitchers at all. And his .301 OBP is atrocious.

I'm ready to let Michaels play every day in left, too. If they bring up Francisco, I'm not sure if he'll hit better than Michaels in a platoon.

I'm clustering the high OBP guys at the top of the lineup to give us as many chances for a big inning as possible. Victor, Honny, and Michaels are responsible for driving them in. Garko drops to the 7th spot to take some pressure off, although he got 3 hits last night so maybe the slump is over.

Gutierrez and Barfield are the least likely by far to get on base, so they bat 8th and 9th. If one of them does get on, though, we have speed on the basepaths with the top of the order up, and I like that.
Prosecutor
Plutonian Outliers
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 11:59 am

Unread postby Steve Buffum » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:12 pm

Barfield .284

Well, there's "true" and there's "relevant." What is Barfield's OBP since, say, May 1? Which is a better predictor of future performance?

I'm a big fan of larger sample sizes, but it seems obvious to me that Barfield in April was adjusting to a new league, and is no longer anything like that player. I could certainly be wrong (and upon further reflection prefer him at 9 to 2), but he's not a .284 OBP guy for the purposes of planning the games now through (say) the AS Break.
User avatar
Steve Buffum
Prose Flayer
 
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:32 am
Location: Austin TX
Favorite Player: Withheld
Least Favorite Player: David Huff

Unread postby pup » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:13 pm

Plus, with Victor and Peralta coming up behind him pitchers will be less likely to pitch around him. They'll go after him, which is what he needs to start hitting again; some good pitches to hit.


Worked so far...
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Unread postby paulcousineau » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:16 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:
Barfield .284

Well, there's "true" and there's "relevant." What is Barfield's OBP since, say, May 1? Which is a better predictor of future performance?

I'm a big fan of larger sample sizes, but it seems obvious to me that Barfield in April was adjusting to a new league, and is no longer anything like that player. I could certainly be wrong (and upon further reflection prefer him at 9 to 2), but he's not a .284 OBP guy for the purposes of planning the games now through (say) the AS Break.


Barfield OBP by month
April - .195
May - .316
June - .354
Indians Fever...Be a Believer!
User avatar
paulcousineau
Celebrity
 
Posts: 604
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:21 am
Location: West Park


Return to Cleveland Indians & MLB

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: gbot and 2 guests

Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: gbot and 2 guests