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Some new info from my source.

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Some new info from my source.

Unread postby captain_wahoo » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:07 am

I talked to my friend last night and he said the Tribe is very concerned about their lack of offense. They are looking at what upgrades are out there at 1st, Left or Right field. The back of the bullpen is their other concern. They do not want Gagne because of his price tag and the fact that it would be viewed as an insult to Borowski who has been very good as a closer. He ain't pretty but he does get the job done. He said there have still been talks going on with Texas and he believes it is about Otsuka. He said he hasn't heard anything about getting Lofton back. They are also still very comfortable with Dellucci and if they upgrade the outfield it is likely to be Trot who leaves. I asked about Griffey and he said he hasn't heard his name mentioned. My guess is that they aren't looking for the big name outfielder, but an effective lesser known guy from a team that is out of it. If I hear anything else, I will let you guys know right away, since I am a teacher and on summer vacation.
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Unread postby Hoover » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:32 am

Thanks for the info. Otsuka looks like a good target. However he's terrible against the Red Sox, who we might play if we make the postseason. His ERA is 12 vs. them since 04.

Other than that, he's a very effective reliever, definitely better than Borowski. 1.16 Whip, .221 BA against, 2.39 career ERA. Amazing numbers.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:33 am

Thanks for the notes, Capt.

It is inconceivable to me that anyone is "comfortable" with David Dellucci.
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Re: Some new info from my source.

Unread postby psk678 » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:38 am

captain_wahoo wrote: My guess is that they aren't looking for the big name outfielder, but an effective lesser known guy from a team that is out of it.


Oh, so you mean another Dellucci, Michaels or Nixon, sweet.....

If we do go after another corner OF, I would like for it to be a somewhat big name guy with a big bat.

I am also concerned about our pen which has looked shaky as of late. Mastny, Cabrera and Hernandez have been inconsistent at best and I would like for our primary search to be involved in a reliever rather than another bat. (but we still need more production out of our LF/RF)

I have also been impressed by Gutierrez's play as of late.
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Unread postby furls » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:39 am

Thanks for the notes, Capt.

It is inconceivable to me that anyone is "comfortable" with David Dellucci.


Rack the fuck out of that. I like his effort, but this is a results driven league and frankly, his results suck. He actually hits worse than our entire infield from a position that is supposed to add a lot of pop to your line up.

Dellichaels and Nixon have been a disaster that leaves me yearning for the days when Todd Hollandsworth used to prowl the OF at Jacob's Field.
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Unread postby furls » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:45 am

As of right now, Indians corner outfielders have the following combined stats:

479 AB
118 H
54 BB
10 HR
60 RBIs

That breaks down to an average of

BA: .246
OBP: .322
HRs: 5
RBIs: 30

That is unsatisfactory production from a 4th OF (let alone a combined average of 2 starting positions). I would be disappointed if that was the line from a 2B/SS, for an outfielder it is REPULSIVE.
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Unread postby intenso » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:03 pm

How about Sammy Sosa.

Code: Select all
Sammy Sosa dh-of
1 year/$0.5M (2007)

    * contract purchased 4/07
    * signed as a free agent 1/07 (minor-league contract)
    * $2.2M in performance bonuses based on plate apperaances:
          o $0.2M each for 200, 250 & 300 PAs
          o $0.25M each for 350, 400, 450 & 500 PAs
          o $0.3M each for 550 & 600 PAs
    * award bonus: $0.2M for Comeback Player of the Year
    * 4 years/$72M (2002-05), plus $18M 2006 option
          o $6M signing bonus
          o 02:$12M, 03:$13M, 04:$16M, 05:$17M, 06:$18M club option ($4.5M buyout)
          o $3.5M severance payment due at end of contract
          o 2006 option becomes guaranteed if Sosa is traded
          o $19M 2007 option added if Sosa is traded
          o Sosa declined right to opt out after '03 & collect $1.75M buyout
          o contract restructured 1/05 as part of trade to Orioles, with Sosa agreeing to eliminate 1) '06 option & 2) clause adding '07 option
          o Orioles will pay $8.15M of 2005 salary
          o Cubs will pay:
                + $8.85M of 2005 salary
                + $3.5M severence payment, due within 30 days of trade
                + $4.5M assignment bonus (replacing $4.5M '06 buyout)
    * 4 years/$42.5M (1998-2001)
    * $3,500 signing bonus
    * agents: Adam Katz, Tom Reich
    * ML service: 16.049
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:12 pm

Dellichaels


:lol:


Comfortable with Dellucci? Shapiro must sleep on his floor at nights.
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Unread postby Prosecutor » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:36 pm

Otsuka is 35 years old and he's making $3 million this year. Gagne is 31 and is making $6 million. If he traded for Gagne at the halfway point, he would cost us $1.5 million more than Otsuka would. Either would be a great acquisition, but Gagne has been damn near unhittable. I have to admit it would be kind of shitty to demote Borowski after he's pitched so well, though. But heck, does the guy want to go to the World Series or not?

If the Tribe is so concerned about the offense, then I'd put together a package of Stanford, Gutierrez, and a prospect for a corner outfielder who can hit left-handed pitching.

Once Pronk and Garko get over their slumps the offense should be OK, though. Hey, they started Gutierrez over Nixon against a right-hander last night and he got two hits.
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Unread postby cozmeesah » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:47 pm

How about Markakis from Baltimore? I haven't been paying that much attention to him so y'all will have to tell me. Does he have enough power potentially and could he help us? If so, what would we have to give up for him?
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:02 pm

Once Pronk and Garko get over their slumps the offense should be OK, though


OK, Pronk I can at least understand your optimism.

I see no reason to think Garko will ever be more than what he is right now, a decent, short on power for a first baseman, fire hydrant.

So when Pronk starts to hit, we will still have crappy corner OFers and odds are Casey Blake will not be hitting .350 the rest of the year.

Anyway you look, they need another bat.

They probably need another starting pitcher.

They might need a reliever, or they could just trust the ones they have (I guess you could say that about the corner OF spots, but projecting offensive kids is tougher than pitchers, IMO).
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Unread postby ArtGold » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:03 pm

Thanks for the insights, I wonder if they are comfortable with Dellucci because they can't move his contract.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:09 pm

cozmeesah wrote:How about Markakis from Baltimore? I haven't been paying that much attention to him so y'all will have to tell me. Does he have enough power potentially and could he help us? If so, what would we have to give up for him?

A nice target, but I think he is one of Peter Angelos' pet players. I remember reading that it was Angelos that got him in the lineup originally. He's only 23, so it would probably take quite a package to pry him away.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:13 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:
cozmeesah wrote:How about Markakis from Baltimore? I haven't been paying that much attention to him so y'all will have to tell me. Does he have enough power potentially and could he help us? If so, what would we have to give up for him?

A nice target, but I think he is one of Peter Angelos' pet players. I remember reading that it was Angelos that got him in the lineup originally. He's only 23, so it would probably take quite a package to pry him away.


I think they are both Greek, so anything short of Zues himself would not get Markakis out of B-More.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:39 pm

I've read twice in this thread about two things that alarm me, 1. That Joe Borowski is pitching well, and 2. That there is some concern about "stepping on his toes" if we bring in someone else.

To the first point, the guy has given up 34 hits in 27 innings. His ERA is 6.33, teams are hitting over .300 against him, including .400 in his last seven apprearances (meaning, the old "well if you throw out this appearance" argument, it really doesn't hold water) and last but not least, the guy isn't making any hitter uncomfortable. Think Paul Byrd here. Things are going to catch up, he's approaching the halfway point with a 6 ERA, he's going to blow saves in the second half, it's the way the game works. just as sure as hell Paul Byrd's 6-2 start was an abberation while being ripped all over the yard, the same applies here.
To the second point, even if you are a Borowski fan, this bullpen is in sorry enough shape that they need to bring someone in regardless of what Borowski or anyone else thinks. He's a big boy, he's getting paid and this is his job. The front office doesn't need to worry about a mediocre at best Joe Borowski and his job, they need to worry about their own jobs, and more importantly, the Cleveland Indians
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:45 pm

The fact is he has less blown saves than Mariano Rivera. Without looking it up, isn't he 20 for 22 in save attempts. That's pretty good. There aren't that many automatic blow the batters away closers now a days are there?
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Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:58 pm

captain_wahoo wrote:The fact is he has less blown saves than Mariano Rivera. Without looking it up, isn't he 20 for 22 in save attempts. That's pretty good. There aren't that many automatic blow the batters away closers now a days are there?


My point is that if he keep pitching like he is, the blown saves are coming.
If they weren't, you'd see many closers over the years with 50 saves and an ERA over 5.00, and there would be fewer of them losing their jobs.

There is a difference between blowing batters away and not being able to get them out. Mariano Rivera, in his worst year would be the choice of every single team over Joe Borowski.

Again, numbers aside, two guys that I've been vocal about since the first month Byrd and Borowski. Is there anyone else out there that watches these guys pitch and can envision any type of long term success? Throw the horrible numbers out and just watch the belt high fastballs and hanging breakers. Take a second to watch the lasers to the warning track and marginal hitters gripping and ripping. These guys aren't turning anything around without some adjustments that make thm less hittable. I can't see those adjustments coming at this point.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:01 pm

Otsuka


Another member of the mid-grade, mid-paid club that Shapiro loves to frequent. Why have Prime rib when you can get a cheeseburger on a silver platter?

Gagne would be worth every damn penny. He would also put people in the sets - yes a closer can do that if prolific enough. I have a friend who is a Marlins fan and Rob Nenn's 100 mph unhittable moving comet was a big reason why he and his pals went to games in '97. People would leave in the 8th inning if the Marlins would go up by more than 3 runs. They wanted to see an unhittable closer.

Get Gagne and stop worrying about Joe's feelings! Joe would be a helluva set up man with Rafael. Gagne would be a superb fit in Cleveland.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:13 pm

TribeinLA wrote:Gagne would be a superb fit in Cleveland.

No I wouldn't.

Signed,
Eric Gagne


Okay, now what?
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Unread postby Prosecutor » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:19 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:
TribeinLA wrote:Gagne would be a superb fit in Cleveland.

No I wouldn't.

Signed,
Eric Gagne


Okay, now what?


Are you saying Gagne likes closing for a last place team once a week and isn't interested in being in a pennant race?
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:19 pm

TribeinLA wrote:
Gagne would be a superb fit in Cleveland.

No I wouldn't.

Signed,
Eric Gagne

Okay, now what?


Did I read that the Indians were not on the list of 18 teams that Gagne would accept a trade to?
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:27 pm

The DiaTriber wrote:Did I read that the Indians were not on the list of 18 teams that Gagne would accept a trade to?

That's what I was referring to, yes.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:53 pm

The DiaTriber wrote:
Did I read that the Indians were not on the list of 18 teams that Gagne would accept a trade to?

That's what I was referring to, yes.


Actually, all I find is this Newsday article with this quote, "Texas will absolutely trade Eric Gagne, although Gagne has the right to try and get something out of it. He has no-trade protection to 18 teams, and by design, that list of 18 features virtually all of the clubs who would want and need him."

http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spken175259523jun17,0,5808730.story?coll=ny-sports-print

I thought I remembered reading that the Tribe was not on that list, but cannot find the source.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:04 pm

It was SI's Jon Heyman:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/w ... day/1.html

Jon Heyman wrote:Turns out Eric Gagne has submitted a list of 12 teams that he can be traded to, and it is believed that just about all of them are teams that are out of the race, have no money or don't need him, so he'll have the control when Texas does decide to deal him. Three logical suitors -- the Tigers, Indians and Phillies -- are believed not to be on the list of teams to which Texas can deal him. .

Is this Absolutely Authoritative? No. And it makes no sense for him to rule out the Tigers, since they've given Boras clients big extensions recently. But that's where I read it.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:08 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:It was SI's Jon Heyman:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/w ... day/1.html

Jon Heyman wrote:Turns out Eric Gagne has submitted a list of 12 teams that he can be traded to, and it is believed that just about all of them are teams that are out of the race, have no money or don't need him, so he'll have the control when Texas does decide to deal him. Three logical suitors -- the Tigers, Indians and Phillies -- are believed not to be on the list of teams to which Texas can deal him. .

Is this Absolutely Authoritative? No. And it makes no sense for him to rule out the Tigers, since they've given Boras clients big extensions recently. But that's where I read it.


Thanks.
Sounds like Gagne wants to stay in someplace sunny.
If being a good team happens to play in that city for him to close games, all the better.
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Unread postby VultureHxC » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:22 pm

why is everyone worrying about getting a closer? i don't mind getting another back end bullpen arm but when a guy has saved 20 of 22, do you really acquire a closer to take his spot? so he has a high ERA or gives up hits. he closes games and has been very successful doing it. why take him out of that role, especially for a guy that has been on the DL twice this year and has not pitched in back-to-back games. i'm all for getting gagne and using him in the 7th or 8th along with betancourt. but it's kind of stupid to say to install him at closer when our closer is actually closing out games. and is the bullpen really the problem we have? i could have sworn it was corner OF that is a much bigger issue
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Unread postby Eckersley » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:29 pm

VultureHxC wrote:why is everyone worrying about getting a closer? i don't mind getting another back end bullpen arm but when a guy has saved 20 of 22, do you really acquire a closer to take his spot? so he has a high ERA or gives up hits. he closes games and has been very successful doing it. why take him out of that role, especially for a guy that has been on the DL twice this year and has not pitched in back-to-back games. i'm all for getting gagne and using him in the 7th or 8th along with betancourt. but it's kind of stupid to say to install him at closer when our closer is actually closing out games. and is the bullpen really the problem we have? i could have sworn it was corner OF that is a much bigger issue


Because Borowski's peripherals are warning signs of much worse things ahead.

Kind of like a young millionaire with a gambling or drug habit. He's got millions today, but could very well be in the gutter tomorrow. Why wait for him to go in the gutter? Get help ASAP.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:38 pm

Eckersley wrote:
VultureHxC wrote:why is everyone worrying about getting a closer? i don't mind getting another back end bullpen arm but when a guy has saved 20 of 22, do you really acquire a closer to take his spot? so he has a high ERA or gives up hits. he closes games and has been very successful doing it. why take him out of that role, especially for a guy that has been on the DL twice this year and has not pitched in back-to-back games. i'm all for getting gagne and using him in the 7th or 8th along with betancourt. but it's kind of stupid to say to install him at closer when our closer is actually closing out games. and is the bullpen really the problem we have? i could have sworn it was corner OF that is a much bigger issue


Because Borowski's peripherals are warning signs of much worse things ahead.

Kind of like a young millionaire with a gambling or drug habit. He's got millions today, but could very well be in the gutter tomorrow. Why wait for him to go in the gutter? Get help ASAP.


Exactly Eck. And, not to come off like a dick here, but if I here 20 of 22 again....ARE YOU WATCHING THE GUY PITCH?

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Unread postby VultureHxC » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:39 pm

like i said, i'm all for getting a guy to help in the bullpen and be there in case borowski falters. but for people to say to get gagne and immediately install him at closer when he hasn't even been healthy enough to pitch consecutive days and while borowski has been getting the job done very well. i think having it go gagne, betancourt, borowski for the 7th, 8th, and 9th would be great. it would allow wedge to take guys like byrd and lee out after 6 instead of trying to get 7 out of them in a close game. it would be a big help. but calling for borowski to lose his job when he is getting it done will not only effect team morale as anyone thinks they might lose their job even if they are getting the job done and effect if free agents come here.
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Unread postby VultureHxC » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:42 pm

20 of 22. and yes i am watching him pitch. everyone has been clamoring for adam dunn cause he hits 40 HR a year. but he bats .240. borowski has saved 20 of 22 even though he has an ERA of 6+. i thought saves and save percentage was the defining factor of a closer, not ERA. if ERA is, then betancourt should be closing with his low 1 ERA
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:43 pm

VultureHxC wrote:i thought saves and save percentage was the defining factor of a closer, not ERA. if ERA is, then betancourt should be closing with his low 1 ERA

Saves are a good description of what has happened in the past.

ERA is a good predictor of what is likely to happen in the future.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:20 pm

I have no problem going out and getting Gagne or Otsuka. We need another arm for the backend, whether that guy is a closer or not. If we acquired Gagne, so be it. Gagne could pitch the 8th and setup for JoBo, or vice versa. I don't care. With Raffy in the mix, that is three quality RH arms you need to shut teams down in the 7th, 8th and 9th innings.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:52 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:
TribeinLA wrote:Gagne would be a superb fit in Cleveland.

No I wouldn't.

Signed,
Eric Gagne


Okay, now what?


If we're not one of the 18 teams, that's our problem. If he was available and we didn't buy him, that's also our problem. He's a guy who can turn the lights out. He'd be a good fit anywhere where there are lights.
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Unread postby Wahoot » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:40 pm

Furls wrote:As of right now, Indians corner outfielders have the following combined stats:

479 AB
118 H
54 BB
10 HR
60 RBIs

That breaks down to an average of

BA: .246
OBP: .322
HRs: 5
RBIs: 30

That is unsatisfactory production from a 4th OF (let alone a combined average of 2 starting positions). I would be disappointed if that was the line from a 2B/SS, for an outfielder it is REPULSIVE.


That's not accurate, actually.

Our "composite" LF has the following stats:

BA
.257

OBP
.321

SLG
.428

OPS
.749

With 8 HRs and 37 RBI.

Or "composite" RF breaks down like this:

BA
.261

OBP
.329

SLG
.389

OPS
.718

With 5 HRs and 34 RBI.

Here's the link:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bs ... &year=2007

But, you're right. That ain't enough production from either position.
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Unread postby furls » Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:54 pm

I was lazy and just combined Dellucci, Michaels and Nixons stats and compiled them.

You get the point, it is GROSS.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:16 pm

Furls wrote:I was lazy and just combined Dellucci, Michaels and Nixons stats and compiled them.

You get the point, it is GROSS.


ESPN has a filter on their stats page that offers postional production and their rank in the AL.
For instance, using the top 5 offenses in the AL (DET, CLE, NYY, LAA, BOS - in that order, by the way), their production (using OPS - a pretty fair barometer of overall production) break down like this:

C
CLE – 1.002 (1 out of 14)
NYY - .823 (3 out of 14)
DET- .766 (6 out of 14)
BOS - .737 (7 out of 14)
LAA - .708 (8 out of 14)

1B
LAA - .933 (2 out of 14)
BOS - .876 (4 out of 14)
CLE - .766 (8 out of 14)
NYY - .762 (10 out of 14)
DET - .749 (11 out of 14)

2B
BOS - .850 (2 out of 14)
DET - .799 (3 out of 14)
NYY - .720 (10 out of 14)
LAA - .687 (11 out of 14)
CLE - .621 (14 out of 14)

SS
DET - .867 (1 out of 14)
NYY - .865 (2 out of 14)
CLE - .817 (3 out of 14)
LAA - .817 (3 out of 14)
BOS - .588 (14 out of 14)

3B
NYY – 1.092 (1 out of 14)
BOS - .905 (3 out of 14)
DET - .780 (5 out of 14)
CLE - .742 (9 out of 14)
LAA – .627 (13 out of 14)

LF
BOS - .868 (1 out of 14)
NYY - .791 (3 out of 14)
CLE - .772 (4 out of 14)
LAA - .753(6 out of 14)
DET - .701 (9 out of 14)

CF
DET - .917 (1 out of 14)
CLE - .865 (3 out of 14)
LAA - .780 (6 out of 14)
NYY - .694 (9 out of 14)
BOS - .649 (11 out of 14)

RF
DET – 1.102 (1 out of 14)
LAA - .936 (2 out of 14)
NYY - .733 (11 out of 14)
BOS - .725 (12 out of 14)
CLE - .707 (13 out of 14)

DH
BOS – 1.012 (1 out of 14)
DET - .902 (2 out of 14)
CLE - .850 (4 out of 14)
NYY - .832 (7 out of 14)
LAA - .656 (14 out of 14)

That's the best way to see where the production is coming from in relation to the other teams in the AL.
1B, 2B, 3B, & RF are the spots where we fall into the lower half of the AL.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:21 pm

The DiaTriber wrote:That's the best way to see where the production is coming from in relation to the other teams in the AL.
1B, 2B, 3B, & RF are the spots where we fall into the lower half of the AL.


Thanks for doing the legwork on that Paul.

I was suprised with some of those numbers, although 3B is obviously dragged down by Marte's numbers from earlier in the year, and Barfield's very slow start. 1B I am not too worried about.

The pink elephant here is obviously RF.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:54 pm

The LF production is pretty surprising, though.

If only Hafner were his former self, he'd be right there with Ortiz.

Funny how the old "power positions" - 1B, 3B, LF - have given way to higher OPS at SS and C for a few of these teams, not just the Tribe.
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