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With Eric Wedge steering the ship and other problems

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With Eric Wedge steering the ship and other problems

Unread postby TribeinLA » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:09 am

I love the Indians so much, but I am just very pissed off after tonight and well, the last week or so. I'm about to get a lil angry, so forgive me.



"With the way C.C. pitched in the seventh and eighth, he was our guy," Wedge said. "We didn't make a play. There are other things that go into it."


Elabaorte, Wedge. What other things? Yeah, yeah...Joe B pitched 3/4 previous games. So what? He made up for hardly pitching at all from that homestand until Miami. You wanna tell me he's tired after pitching 3 innings in 4 days? Closers aren't starters, nor long relievers, but are you kidding me?

How we are in first place with his dope in the dugout is beyond me. CC should have been lifted for a PR in Cincy and we should have had our CLOSER (no matter how "uncloserlike" he is) in tonight. CC pitched a good game, but he was done after 8. The difference in this year's team and those great first place Indians teams of the 90's? Simple and you all know it. Albert Belle/Manny Ramirez/David Justice and the like vs. Nixon/Dellucci/Michaels/"Buffalo call ups" is the first. Secondly, wouldn't it be nice to have a guy like Mike Jackson or dare I say Jose Mesa? The confidence this team has in its bullpen is laughable and we're in first. Jesus, that should be the first warning that we're not going to finish 1st with this type of approach.

I hate being negative, but damn it I love this team and I love the city of Cleveland and you all deserve a winner! Think of all of the World Series managers over the last few years. Is Eric Wedge better than any of them? That should tell you something. I think most of you already know and I am just rehashing. This dope will make you sick just by looking at his lineup card in the first inning. DD bats second? What a joke! Trot Nixon should be benched...no more! He is awful and I don't care about his veteran presence. Was Trot Nixon ever REALLY anything anyway? He can hustle and fight...that's it. I don't want to hear anymore Johnny Cash over the loudspeakers, as if the "man in black" is supposed to represent Trot Nixon and his blue-collar image. In his case, "Blue Collar" means "can't run, hit, or field, but still play the game b/c I can scrap and get dirty". Put Frankie G out there and let him learn from trial by fire or get another corner OF. If DD cannot get his average up, strikeout total down, and spray the damn ball to all fields, then get him and his inflated salary the hell outta Cleveland, too. A platoon job has all of a sudden become 6/7 games for DD. It sickens me to know that we're in first and we have a whole OF that is not producing except for Grady (and he's still lacking at times), Hafner is not Pronk, we have two pitchers in the rotation that are VERY iffy, and a bullpen full of doofuses (minus Betancourt). Imagining what this team would do with all the right holes fixed is almost too much to bear. Eric Wedge being able to manage a game the right way would be asking too much though. Will Shapiro make a move of any kind?

Oh and Jhonny Peralta...we already have a DH! Stop trying out for it! Pick the damn ball. I give DD some credit for going after that ball at the wall, but he still looked like a jackass. Speed kills, they say. What about when you have none of it except at one OF position?

/rant off[/quote]
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Unread postby Eckersley » Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:01 pm

My opinion of Eric Wedge? I'll get straight to the point:

I think he's an egotistical, my way or the highway type manager who has very little to offer as a major league manager. He did well in the minors with that type of attitude, but it doesn't fly with major leaguers.

He also is a terrible in-game manager. He would rather have the "high character" player such as Trot Nixon or David Dellucci rather than a "free spirit" such as Brandon Phillips. Note to Wedge: good managers know how to get thru to all players. Not just the "yes sir" type of players that you lobby to be on your team. Give me talent over "clubhouse presence" any day.

Wedge is in his 5th year & remains 1 of the lowest paid managers in all of MLB. Even rookie managers like Freddi Gonzalez are making more than Wedge. Dolan isn't stupid. He knows that Cleveland is the only big league city that would even think of hiring Wedge as a manager. If the Tribe axes him, he'll go back to AAA or sign on as a bullpen coach/ 1st base coach on the big league level, so he takes whatever peanuts that Dolan throws at him if he wants to continue being a big league manager.

Wedge should have been fired for his total incompetence last year, but his bosom buddy, Mark Shapiro brought him back. The Tribe is currently in 1st in spite of Wedge's incompetence, but they are fading fast. The Tribe's future would be much better if Shapiro would sever his loyal ties with Wedge by cutting him off at the hip.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:10 pm

Great points, Eck and I think you said all the other stuff that was on my mind.

You just cannot win a world series with a terrible coach. You can with a bad one - look at the ChiSox, but LaRussa, Torre, McKeon, Leyland, Soscia, etc. have nothing in common with Wdge.
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Unread postby psk678 » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:49 am

TribeinLA, I agree with all of your points. And like you said, it's hard to be so judgemental when we're in first, but we could be so much better!

Dellucci, quite honestly, sickens me. I thought that his signing was a very solid one, but the guy cannot hit a god damn lick. Michaels is a bum, I don't care what anyone says about his glove. Nixon, eh, I can go either way on him, he's been clutch in the past, but my patience is wearing thin..... (I don't know what more Franklin Gutierrez has to do to garner more PT)

I also think our Pen is in shambles, besides Betancourt. Mastny, Cabrera, and Hernandez should not be on major league rosters at this point in time.

Wedge's game management, or lack there of, is very questionable. and this is all being said with the Tribe in first place! Unfuckingbelieveable! Imagine where we would be with the right personnel changes and managerial decisioins.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:01 pm

I don't understand why you can't have the same sunny, optimistic view I have when logically assessing Eric Wedge.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:36 pm

Interesting managerial matchup with the Phils coming to town.

Charlie vs Wedgie....aka: Dumb & Dumber :lol:
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:58 pm

Interesting managerial matchup with the Phils coming to town.


Did you get an advance copy of today's series preview?
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Unread postby Charboneau » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:06 pm

I know I won't make myself very popular with the masses but I like Wedge. I was disappointed with last year but he played the hand he was dealt and we had nothing but stiffs in that bullpen. He had improved this team's record every year until last year. Right now we sit in first place and quite frankly the players haven't played their best baseball yet.

We have dealt with injuries to two starting pitchers and overcome that. We have some guys not hitting the baseball right now. The lineup isn't bad - we have proven when everyone is dialed in we are pretty good. It's a long season. Teams are going to go through slumps. I think he has handled pitchers pretty well this year. Yes he went with CC the other night vs. Atlanta and got burned. CC was just over 100 pitches and he was sharp. I'll take my chances with CC than Borowski or Mastny in that situation. if he had pulled CC and one of the relievers got rocked - people would be complaining about Wedge giving CC the hook.

I'm going to ride this thing out. He is going to make some mistakes. Who available out there is better? The ONLY real beef I have with Wedge is him playing Trot Nixon too much. I know Trot needs at bats and he's a presence in the clubhouse and a clutch player, and so on. But I think he is past his prime. He is an automatic out right now - like a girl playing coed softball. Our team still has some holes - we aren't the best team in the Central - yet we are going to be in this thing the whole way. Is that due to Wedge - not completely - but give him his due. The guy has won and he's playing the hand he has right now.

As for personnel changes - what should he do? Shapiro gives him the ingredients to bake the cake. Sure Wedge has input but come on - we aren't the Yankees who can go out and buy talent. Can Wedge help Hafner is not the same Hafner as 2006 or Garko has been slumping? He has sat them recently tried to mix up the line up. Sooner or later guys have to get hits when it counts and drive in runs. With our bullpen - I would ride my starters too. We have played half the year without a healthy Lee or Westbrook. Still in first place.

Let's ride it out and see. I will go on record as saying I support Wedge to the very end. Most of the complaints below are due to players not performing. Shapiro makes the final call on the players - we all know that. So Wedge is doing the best he can with what he has. So far so good in 2007 in my book.

Fire away.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:55 pm

If ANY of that post were true, why would teams have managers?
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:46 pm

I'll take my chances with CC than Borowski or Mastny in that situation.


And that is a problem. First place teams don't shy away from this and they WANT their closers to come out and finish a game. Wedge, in the 3rd Cincy game and in the first ATL game, did what a FAN would do and let CC come back out to a standing ovation. Then, CC got jacked up. A manager/head coach pulls out the starter who has 100 plus picthes. He kicks the early FG on 4th and 2 from his 15. He doesn't do what is popular. Conversely, he didn't pull off his stretegy and now everyone cries foul as the move eneded up being more unpopular than had he taken him out. If we are going to be a first place winner, then let's act like one and not shy away from Borowski like he's poison oak. Or, let's go buy Gagne.

I already mentioned why Wedge contradicts himself. He pulled out Stanford in game 3 vs. the Marlins and no questions were asked. You can tell Stanford was ticked, but he went out after one trip from Wedge. Stanford was pitching much more effectively in that game than CC did in the other. Stanford was not close to 100 pitches and runners had not scored yet in that inning. I know CC is 4x the pitcher that Jason is, but Wedge did what he did b/c of who each guy was. CC is his all star - how dare I take him out in the 9th, thought Wedge! I want to be popular with my popular players! I have seen that kind of thinking on every level of baseball and sports and that's a sign of a weak coach. I guarantee you that Wedge would have also taken out Sowers and the like as well. Face it, Shapiro may not spoil him, but it's clear that he's cost us games that should have been won. (NYY, Oak, Cincy, ATL)

Wedge's latest move that went unnoticed b/c we won - not playing Hafner on Sunday against a pitcher that gets clubbed by lefties. You can sit Dellucci all you want on those days. Play your 2nd best hitter. Had we lost to the Braves or say Carmona not have pitched well, more people would have griped. Wedge is a dice thrower and sometimes you want that in a guy, but he's also the type who doesn't know how to play. Wedge just might hit a 16 against a 6 showing if he was playing black jack.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:51 pm

TribeinLA wrote:Wedge's latest move that went unnoticed b/c we won - not playing Hafner on Sunday against a pitcher that gets clubbed by lefties.

Um, no. Davies gets clubbed by righties. He has a reverse platoon split because of the movement on his change. That was actually a good piece of scouting by the staff.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:54 pm

Ok, then I am thinking of another game? I'm not trying to nitpick at Wedge. I do, most of the time, take note when he fouls up. The other games I mentioned are definites. I could have sworn that davies was getting beat up by lefties though. My bad if not.
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Unread postby Charboneau » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:29 pm

TribeinLA wrote:
I'll take my chances with CC than Borowski or Mastny in that situation.


And that is a problem. First place teams don't shy away from this and they WANT their closers to come out and finish a game. Wedge, in the 3rd Cincy game and in the first ATL game, did what a FAN would do and let CC come back out to a standing ovation.

I'm going to have to disagree wholeheartedly on that one. I pitched in college (certainly not in the pros) and coached at a small college in Virginia for three years as an assistant - in charge of pitchers. The idea is, you don't always go by the book. The situation dictates the move. I can bet you anything after CC cruised in the 8th vs. Atlanta, was slightly over 100 pitches, Wedge went to him and said how do you feel? At that point the way CC was throwing - I think it was the right move. Not for the fans but a move in that Wedge (and I) would rather have CC out there in the 9th when he is sharp than Borowski. He has traditionally been a pitcher who starts slow but then is unhitable as the game wears on when he is sharp. Anyone else but CC - maybe you bring in Joe. But the horse is CC and you better believe you ride him if you think and he says he can close it out. Like I said, if he pulls CC and Borowski gets rocked - everyone would be screaming he should have let CC finish. It's a gamble but I liked the move.
Last edited by Charboneau on Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Charboneau » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:31 pm

Pup wrote:If ANY of that post were true, why would teams have managers?


Managers have to put players in position to win. Wedge is doing that. A move here or there might not work but overall look at the body of work. Soon to be 13 games over .500 with a cruddy pen, big hitters not producing, two starting pitchers out for the early part of the year. No issues with me regarding Wedge. If he flops, I'll admit I am wrong - but right now he is getting it done.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:46 pm

Managers have to put players in position to win. Wedge is doing that. A move here or there might not work but overall look at the body of work. Soon to be 13 games over .500 with a cruddy pen, big hitters not producing, two starting pitchers out for the early part of the year. No issues with me regarding Wedge. If he flops, I'll admit I am wrong - but right now he is getting it done.


Take the games that CC and Fausto have taken out of his hande by dominating...and tell me what Wedge has done positive.

He wins when his players play great. He loses when his players play OK or poorly.
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Unread postby Charboneau » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:52 pm

Pup wrote:
Managers have to put players in position to win. Wedge is doing that. A move here or there might not work but overall look at the body of work. Soon to be 13 games over .500 with a cruddy pen, big hitters not producing, two starting pitchers out for the early part of the year. No issues with me regarding Wedge. If he flops, I'll admit I am wrong - but right now he is getting it done.


Take the games that CC and Fausto have taken out of his hande by dominating...and tell me what Wedge has done positive.

He wins when his players play great. He loses when his players play OK or poorly.


He's done a great job of putting together a solid lineup - when it hasn't worked, he's shuffled. They are much more aggressive this year keeping the pressure on offensively. He has made good use out of a mediocre pen.

How do you expect him to overcome these offensive woes we seem to have from time to time. He can't hit for them right? He can try to shuffle the line up and put the wheels in motion with steals, hit and runs, etc. What more can he do?

Other than leaving a starter like CC in too long (according to some), and bringing in Borowski to blow the Yankees game - what has he done so poorly this year to not acknowledge the guy has us 13 games over right now? What would you do differently?

The only gripe I have is giving Nixon so many at bats. But I bet that is going to change too.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:02 pm

But the horse is CC and you better believe you ride him if you think and he says he can close it out.


He's also our horse we have to ride all year. I didn't get up and yell at the tv or anything, but I was very skeptical when Wedge put him in the 9th. I didn't really like how he was throwing - not bad, but not dominating and his defense had made some huge plays for him. CC got out of some major jams.

The unwritten rules do not exclude anyone. A guy is over 100 pitches and hasn't shown his best, take him out and let your closer finish the game. If Borowski can't do it, then he will further prove that he doesn't belong in that role. Better to find that out now rather than mid September. It's a gamble either way. Also, keep in mind that CC was pitching the 8th like he knew it ws his last. He was reaching back and the gun hit 97. I don't know if he even knew he was going in for the 9th. Yes, he's the best starter to do that with. I would have yelled had he done that with Carmona or Lee. Bartolo Colon is the only recent Indians pitcher who had better stuff as the innings and pitch counts grew.

On a good note, Wedge fielded a solid lineup tonight. I like Schoppach getting to catch 2/5 instead of 1/5 and Gutierrez over Nixon is a win/win. Trot cannot play D like that. Michaels is proving he's better than DD even though the logic tells us that he's in thee to face lefties and visa versa.
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Unread postby Charboneau » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:05 pm

TribeinLA wrote:
But the horse is CC and you better believe you ride him if you think and he says he can close it out.


He's also our horse we have to ride all year. I didn't get up and yell at the tv or anything, but I was very skeptical when Wedge put him in the 9th. I didn't really like how he was throwing - not bad, but not dominating and his defense had made some huge plays for him. CC got out of some major jams.

The unwritten rules do not exclude anyone. A guy is over 100 pitches and hasn't shown his best, take him out and let your closer finish the game. If Borowski can't do it, then he will further prove that he doesn't belong in that role. Better to find that out now rather than mid September. It's a gamble either way. Also, keep in mind that CC was pitching the 8th like he knew it ws his last. He was reaching back and the gun hit 97. I don't know if he even knew he was going in for the 9th. Yes, he's the best starter to do that with. I would have yelled had he done that with Carmona or Lee. Bartolo Colon is the only recent Indians pitcher who had better stuff as the innings and pitch counts grew.

On a good note, Wedge fielded a solid lineup tonight. I like Schoppach getting to catch 2/5 instead of 1/5 and Gutierrez over Nixon is a win/win. Trot cannot play D like that. Michaels is proving he's better than DD even though the logic tells us that he's in thee to face lefties and visa versa.


Well said. I do see your point. I also agree we need to see more Shoppach, and Michaels with Gutierrez. I think DD can help us in spots and I am frustrated with Nixon to the point I want to scream. I think Wedgie will see this too.

Nice debate. Good points.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:10 pm

Thanks Char. I see your point as well and yeah, it was a popular decision at the time. I just remember in 95 when El Presidente or Bulldog or even Nagy would go 8.0 IP and it was automatic, most of the time, that Jose was coming in and that's what we wanted over the CG possibilty. True, Joe B is not someone I have confidence in, but if we play the #'s game, it's a pretty good bet. In any event, it's as lesson learned and Wedge may think differently next time. I was at the last CG in KC and that was an instance where I wanted the ball in CC's hands.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:12 am

Managers have to put players in position to win.


Far too many times have I watched Wedge NOT put our players in position to win.

He nose dived us right into the ground last year. I've been following the Tribe since 1972 & I've never seen such a sloppy, fundamentally unsound, unprepared bunch of keystone cops as I saw last year.

Terrible base running, opponents running at will against us, bad defense, players not knowing how many outs in an inning, players throwing to the wrong bases. No attempt at manufacturing runs. All of this is a reflection on the manager. Wedge should have been fired for the pathetic performance of 2006.

Now, all of a sudden he's pushing the running game, moving runners, placing emphasis on holding runners on base. Why did it take into his 5th year to make these needed changes?

I think that Wedge is an egotistical moron. The Tribe would not miss a beat if Shapiro would wake up & axe his worthless a$$. They'd improve as he's an anchor around the team's neck.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:54 am

Charboneau wrote:I think he has handled pitchers pretty well this year.

You know what? I think that's largely true. Yes, there have been several instances in which I felt he should have had a reliever up and ready before he did, but compared to last year when he left starters in to bake dry left and right and turned several relievers into newts, I think he's improved considerably. I think he's to the point where he is average in this regard, comparable to what any other fan would say about their manager. I think he's been better than Torre, for example. And, of course, good players and good performances make a manager look a lot smarter ...
Charboneau wrote:Yes he went with CC the other night vs. Atlanta and got burned. CC was just over 100 pitches and he was sharp.

This is where you lose me: he had given up 8 hits in 10 innings and was nothing like "sharp." Yes, his 7th and 8th were 1-2-3, but he did not look "sharp." He was at (IIRC) 106 pitches and he'd gotten away with a few. Sending him out there was tempting fate, IMO needlessly so. I am willing to grant your point about CC as Horse if you're willing to grant that relief pitchers are only valuable if they ... well ... pitch in relief, and there were rested guys in the 'pen. Perez and Fultz have terrific ERAs, and Cabrera ... well, he was rested, I guess.

I understand the point about "who would have been better," but my answer is "one of the left-handed relievers," and without a time machine, I can't be wrong. ;-)
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Unread postby Hoover » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:00 am

Eckersley wrote:
Now, all of a sudden he's pushing the running game, moving runners, placing emphasis on holding runners on base. Why did it take into his 5th year to make these needed changes?


Contract drive. Even a doofus will get motivated to outperform expectations.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:40 am

Contract drive. Even a doofus will get motivated to outperform expectations.


Yeah, either that or job threats by Shapiro & Dolan...."Wedge, you'll do it this way or you'll be looking for a job. The choice is yours".
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Wedge....Another brilliant move! lol

Unread postby oldcrow » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:25 pm

This guy is one of the dumbest managers in baseball. We have a real battle of managerial titans tonight in Manual and Wedge.
Wedge just replace Stanford with a lefty to face a lefty who is hitting .400 over the last 15 games vs. left handed pitching. A two out bases loaded single follows. Yet another brilliant move by Wedge.
This team will never reach it's potential with this guy leading this team.
I think he is one of the biggest managerial embarrassments in baseball. He has absolutely no feel for the game.
It's a shame that in all these years since we've built the Jake that this organization cannot hire a decent field leader.

This team needs to address their bullpen or we'll be watching baseball in the fall. The Tiger's are going to be hard to stay with. With this bullpen we will not stay with them and will be lucky to hold onto a wild card spot
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Unread postby pup » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:32 pm

This team needs to address their bullpen or we'll be watching baseball in the fall. The Tiger's are going to be hard to stay with. With this bullpen we will not stay with them and will be lucky to hold onto a wild card spot


Welcome to the board, but I have to ask a question here.

If our bullpen is going to keep us from winning, how in the world can Detroit win with theirs?
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Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:52 pm

Pup, who do you think will straighten out their bullpen situations first, Leyland or Wedge?
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Unread postby pup » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:58 pm

I would trust Leyland more, but if you have mierda to go to, it won't make a difference.

Since going to the Series, they have lost:

Their best left hander
Their best right hander
Their second best right hander has been crapola since moving into the 8th inning this year.
Their closer is pretty close to JoBo in terms of stuff.

For crying out loud, they counted on Jose Mesa and were forced to watch him get his ERA in the dozen range before cutting bait.

Neither team's bullpen is the Nasty Boys, but to try to say it will be the end for one team and not the other is cheating.

This is not an endorsment for any Indian reliever or manager. It is just saying, they ain't got it any better North of here.
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Unread postby oldcrow » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:58 pm

Pup wrote:


If our bullpen is going to keep us from winning, how in the world can Detroit win with theirs?



Simply, the Tigers are the best and most consistent hitting team in baseball and their starting pitching is one of the best staffs in baseball. They can more easily overcome the problems in the bullpen.
I don't think the Tribe can.

And now a two run double in the 9th. Pup. you can say what you want but the proof is looking at you at the jake this evening.
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Unread postby Tribefan24 » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:13 pm

as long as we have Eric Wedge as our manager we will not win this division or make the playoffs

he is terrible... he costs us 20 games a yr with his decision making

take for example tonight :we are down by 1 and he goes to Hernanadez who couldnt get me out let alone the middle of the philly order... what happens ? he gives up 3 runs and we lose


i am so sick of losing games we should win and its b/c of our F****** Manager !



LETS GO TRIBE !
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Unread postby pup » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:14 pm

Overall though, the Tribe has allowed fewer runs, but allowed fewer runs.

These teams are very close, today. Both need bullpen help and whoever gets it first and gets the better of it will probably prevail.

If both teams make zero changes, I would probably go Tigers by a nose.

I think* this is the year the Indians make some moves though and stay in front of them.










* Maybe hope is a better word.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:22 am

Lead Pipe wrote:Pup, who do you think will straighten out their bullpen situations first, Leyland or Wedge?


Neither bullpen is great, but by talent alone, the Tribe has the current edge...at least until Zumaya comes back healthy.

The problem for the Tribe is that they have a moron manager that doesn't know how to use a bullpen. The Tigers have Leyland. Huge edge for Detroit.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:59 pm

That was exactly my reason for asking the question.
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