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Adam Dunn

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Adam Dunn

Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:29 am

I know we are more in need of a right handed bat and bullpen, but if the price is right do we make a move on Adam Dunn?

He could play 1st, left, or right.

Grady
Blake
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Victor
Dunn
Jhonny
Garko/Nixon/Michaels/Delucci
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Unread postby Hoover » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:15 am

I would use the word "play" loosely when describing Dunn. He's out there and he's present, but his play is like the Marlins last night. Error prone and like a doofus. He has the range of a tortoise.

Great hitter, brutal fielder. We don't need another DH.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:27 am

It will never happen for 3 reasons....

1) Dunn is a hack on defense.

2) He also strikes out a ton; which would make him right at home in our lineup. If we bring in another hitter, it should be a high contact guy who can get the bat on the ball.

3) Dunn is making 10.5M in 07 & will make 13M in 08. That's way too rich for Dolan's blood. He likes the 3M Trot Nixon & 4M David Dellucci signings much better.
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Unread postby VultureHxC » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:41 am

well dunn can't really play first. i would much rather see hafner at first than dunn. and to me, dunn is just a slightly more productive russell branyan. if he gets bat on ball, it's getting hit hard 75% of the time. if he doesn't, you can basically chalk up a K to the opposing pitcher. he also doesn't hit for very good average as his career best is .266. i like the fact he takes a lot of walks but if he had more plate discipline he would be an elite player, at least i think so. he can also opt out of his contract after this year if he's traded and cinci would probably rape a team for prospects and bullpen help to get him. as much as our offense seems to be struggling right now, i don't think we need to make a trade to make it better. i also don't think we would need a power hitter as we already have 6 guys that could hit 20 homers in a year (sizemore, blake, hafner, martinez, peralta, garko) with all but blake have the ability to hit at least 30. i think a legitimate leadoff hitter would be of more value as that would allow sizemore to move down in the order and drive in some runs.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:57 am

VultureHxC wrote:... to me, dunn is just a slightly more productive russell branyan.

This is true, as long as "slightly" means "way, way". Come on, Dunn's not a good fit for us and I'd be scared more by the opt-out clause than the $13M (I think you guys are missing the point with contracts: it's the YEARS (overall dollars) that scare the front office, not the ANNUAL SALARY), but Dunn is VERY much more productive than Russ Branyan. Sure, he's a real Three True Outcomes guy, but he's been very productive.
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Unread postby noles1 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:21 am

Actually Dunn's last year of his deal is voided when traded so he would becomoe a free agent so you are basically renting him for a couple months. Bear in mind though you would only have to pay a portion of his yearly salary as half would probably already be paid thus far by the Reds.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:28 am

I'm not sure Pup is saying Dunn is the second coming. I think the guy is just looking for some production from a corner outfield spot. They need something from ONE of the corners at least. Ideally he would play better D and make more contact, but then he'd be Vlad Guerrero.

There is a huge difference between Branyan and Dunn. Dunn can play a full season and hit .260. Anytime Branyan gets extended playing time he's down to .220 so fast it isn't funny. Dunn draws walks, won't go a month straight without getting 2 feet from a pitch, and, as much of a hack as he is defensively, is better than Branyan. Also, for someone who ought to be thankful that there were enough teams dumb enough to fall for his power potential, the guy has an aire of arrogance that's unbelievable.

Dunn, warts and all over Trot, Michaels, Gut, Choo......
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Unread postby VultureHxC » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:40 am

i still think dunn is slightly more productive than branyan.

At bats per HR - Dunn is 14.4, Branyan is 15.4
Career Avg - Dunn is .246, Branyan is .231
BB per Plate Appearance - Dunn is .162, Branyan is .122
Career Slg - Dunn is .513, Branyan is .481
Career OPS - Dunn is .890, Branyan is .810

If you took those number and put gave each 600 Plate Appearances, this would be the breakdown

Dunn - .246, 35 HR, 97 BB
Branyan - .231, 34 HR, 73 BB

It would be hard to say what the RBI's are just because each is playing for a different team. And remember, Dunn's played in a hitters park his entire career and played full time while Branyan hasn't always played full time. That looks like Dunn is slighly better than Branyan.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:49 am

Adam Dunn, Equivalent average and Wins Above Replacement Player since 2001 (Age 21):

.304 3.5
.295 5.0
.286 3.2
.315 6.5
.310 6.5
.288 3.6
.293 1.2 (through June 13)

Russ Branyan's career WARP is 12.7. Career. Total. All of it.

Cris' point about playing time is germane here: Branyan can't play every day, and Dunn can. Dunn's 2004 and 2005 have more value by themselves than Russ Branyan's ENTIRE MAJOR-LEAGUE CAREER.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:54 am

I think you guys are missing the point with contracts: it's the YEARS (overall dollars) that scare the front office, not the ANNUAL SALARY


You just pinpointed 1 of the problems of the Dolan/Shapiro era. Payroll flexibility is great to have, but this FO takes it to a whole new level.

I agree that we should never hand out 7 year Zito-type contracts. Those contracts usually blow up in the team's face.

OTOH, if Shapiro is hell bent on handing out 1 & 2 year contracts, who is he going to attract besides any aging, underperforming player or any player coming off an injury?

There's got to be some middle ground. We've seen more than our fair share of the 1-2 year signings of Jason Michaels, Trot Nixon, Jose Hernanadez, Roberto Hernandez, Jason Johnson, Joe Borowski, Paul Byrd & Todd Hollandsworth
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:02 pm

Eckersley wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point with contracts: it's the YEARS (overall dollars) that scare the front office, not the ANNUAL SALARY


You just pinpointed 1 of the problems of the Dolan/Shapiro era. Payroll flexibility is great to have, but this FO takes it to a whole new level.

...

There's got to be some middle ground. We've seen more than our fair share of the 1-2 year signings of Jason Michaels, Trot Nixon, Jose Hernanadez, Roberto Hernandez, Jason Johnson, Joe Borowski, Paul Byrd & Todd Hollandsworth

I certainly don't disagree. Heck, I'm not sure Mark Shapiro disagrees.

Honest question: do you consider Jake Westbrook's deal to be fundamentally different? It seems to split the difference between Zito and Borowski. I guess that would be the answer as to what kind of player we can get: an above-average but not great player.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:08 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:Adam Dunn, Equivalent average and Wins Above Replacement Player since 2001 (Age 21):

.304 3.5
.295 5.0
.286 3.2
.315 6.5
.310 6.5
.288 3.6
.293 1.2 (through June 13)

Russ Branyan's career WARP is 12.7. Career. Total. All of it.

Cris' point about playing time is germane here: Branyan can't play every day, and Dunn can. Dunn's 2004 and 2005 have more value by themselves than Russ Branyan's ENTIRE MAJOR-LEAGUE CAREER.


This is spot on. If you play Branyan every day, not simply against hand picked right handers, the guy is a .220 hitter. We saw it here year in and year out.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:20 pm

By the way, I misattributed the "everyday player" point to Cris (Pup) when it should have been That Guy (Lead Pipe). Sorry about that, Pipe.
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Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:53 pm

It comes to one basic point, who would you rather have in LF for the next 350 AB's, Adam Dunn or David Delucci?
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Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:09 pm

It comes to one basic point, who would you rather have in LF for the next 350 AB's, Adam Dunn or David Delucci?


It's a lot more complex than you make it out to be. If we were trading Dellucci for Dunn, then sure.

The Reds would be asking for a ton in return for us getting 3 months of Dunn.

No thanks.
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Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:36 pm

It's a lot more complex than you make it out to be. If we were trading Dellucci for Dunn, then sure.

The Reds would be asking for a ton in return for us getting 3 months of Dunn.

No thanks.




If the asking price is too high, then don't make the trade. The initial post mentioned this fact.

What if the trade was Lofgren for Dunn?
What if it was Lewis and Fred Cab for Dunn?

Without knowing the asking price, I would leave it out of the equation. Maybe the better topic would be what would everyone see as the right trade for acquiring Adam Dunn?
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Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:36 pm

Honest question: do you consider Jake Westbrook's deal to be fundamentally different? It seems to split the difference between Zito and Borowski. I guess that would be the answer as to what kind of player we can get: an above-average but not great player.


Yes, Jake is somewhere in the middle. Although I don't rate him all that much lower than Zito. I know that Jake hasn't pitched well this year, but compared to what SP's are getting, I think the Tribe got a deal with Jake.

That said, unless Dolan is willing to raise payroll by approx 10M each year, how many Jake-type contracts will we see in Cleveland? 2....3 at the most?
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Unread postby ArtGold » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:38 pm

I would trade Dellucci and Michaels for Dunn, and maybe throw in a Juan Lara level prospect, but I wouldn't give up any plus prospects at all. It would need to be a salary dump by Cinci.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:43 pm

I totally agree, Art.

I doubt that the Reds will be looking for a salary dump. They'll more than likely be asking for top prospects for any team that is after Dunn.

If we needed a DH, I may be interested. As for Lofgren? No way do I trade a top pitching prospect for a no-defense, 1-dimensional player.
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Unread postby tribefan333 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:47 pm

As much as I would dread having Dunn in the outfield, I would have liked to make a move on him as I think one more true, 40 HR/year guy would solidify this offense as the best in baseball (over Boston). However his contract is one that can really handicap a team and isn't worth giving up talent/prospects to get.
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Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:32 pm

However his contract is one that can really handicap a team and isn't worth giving up talent/prospects to get.


Actually Dunn's last year of his deal is voided when traded so he would becomoe a free agent so you are basically renting him for a couple months. Bear in mind though you would only have to pay a portion of his yearly salary as half would probably already be paid thus far by the Reds.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:34 pm

The money we'd be spending on Dunn can be put to better use. Dunn doesn't fit into with what we have and what we have too many of are DH/1b/LF type players. I want a guy like Carl Crawford (like) or maybe a Mark Teixera, who I think would be a deluxe version of any corner OF we have now.

Pitching wise, we need a power guy like Eric Bedard or Grineke in KC. These off speed guys we seem to be producing in mass quantities are eventual dead meat. I want a guy that gets up there and throws hard. We don't need 3 off speed guys.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:32 pm

Pitching wise, we need a power guy like Eric Bedard or Grineke in KC. These off speed guys we seem to be producing in mass quantities are eventual dead meat. I want a guy that gets up there and throws hard. We don't need 3 off speed guys.


How about C.C? Carmona? Atom Miller?
All 3 will be in the rotation next year, with another hard thrower in Lofgren in the pipeline.

"Off speed guys" are just more plentiful and consitute a fair portion of most rotations. The Indians, with C.C. and Carmona, are a lot better off than most teams.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:23 am

we have too many of are DH/1b/LF


Name me two legitimate players on this roster that man thos positions.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:26 am

DH/1B
Travis Hafner
Ryan Garko
Victor Martinez

All 3 are legitimate players at those 2 spots.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:25 am

Victor is a catcher.

Garko is decent, but your first baseman should hit a few more home runs.

And I see there is no corner outfielder in your group.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:06 am

Pup wrote:Victor is a catcher.

Garko is decent, but your first baseman should hit a few more home runs.

And I see there is no corner outfielder in your group.


If we traded for Dunn, we'd still need a corner OF'er as he plays the position with a meat clever. The guy is a total hack in the OF.

This team needs a closer. Yeah, Borowski's save % is great right now, but he will soon imlplode. He's simply not very good. Get us a legit closer with Borowski & Betancourt setting up & this team would be much better than trading for Adam Dunn.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:51 am

Eckersley wrote:
Pup wrote:Victor is a catcher.

Garko is decent, but your first baseman should hit a few more home runs.

And I see there is no corner outfielder in your group.


If we traded for Dunn, we'd still need a corner OF'er as he plays the position with a meat clever. The guy is a total hack in the OF.

This team needs a closer. Yeah, Borowski's save % is great right now, but he will soon imlplode. He's simply not very good. Get us a legit closer with Borowski & Betancourt setting up & this team would be much better than trading for Adam Dunn.


Again, I don't think Pup is saying "All we need is a corner outfielder" He's not even saying corner outfield if the top priority. Correct me if I'm wrong Pup, but I believe all your saying is replacing one corner outfielder with Adam Dunn will make the team more productive. Give me Dunn, in the outfield, with the meat clever and a cell phone over Deluuci any day.

And, if Borowski isn't your closer and still giving up runs at a 7.00 clip, how would that help the Tribe's set-up situation?
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:24 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong Pup, but I believe all your saying is replacing one corner outfielder with Adam Dunn will make the team more productive. Give me Dunn, in the outfield, with the meat clever and a cell phone over Deluuci any day.


No, Pipes, you are dead on.

Hell, give me Dunn with a meat clever over Delucci, Micheals, Nixon with a fishing net.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:47 pm

Name me two legitimate players on this roster that man thos positions.


Are you serious?

Garko (could play all 3 if he had to)
Victor (minus LF)
Pronk (minus c)
Nixon (minus C)

Those legitimate? I was just pointing out that we have too many "beef cakes" who can switch roles due to injuries, LHP vs. RHP, etc. Dunn traded for Nixon and Dellucci = hell yeah. Won't hapen though. Cincy might be interested in Michaels as a former NL man, eh?
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:02 pm

TribeinLA wrote:
Name me two legitimate players on this roster that man thos positions.


Are you serious?

Are you?
TribeinLA wrote:Garko (could play all 3 if he had to)
Victor (minus LF)
Pronk (minus c)
Nixon (minus C)

Garko in LF? Has he ever? He has less speed than Victor.

Pronk in LF? That was included for amusement value, right?

So your only LF is Nixon ... which is kind of the point of this thread.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:05 pm

Pup, you make one little suggestion, and all hell breaks loose.

C'mon guys, the Tribe's corner outfield situation B-L-O-W-S. I know that's a subjective opinion, but, it even debatable?
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Unread postby VultureHxC » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:12 pm

cinci is probably going to ask for at least a major league ready bullpen guy i.e. Betencourt or Perez, a major league ready hitter i.e. Garko, and probably a AA outfielder or starter.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:24 pm

VultureHxC wrote:cinci is probably going to ask for at least a major league ready bullpen guy i.e. Betencourt or Perez, a major league ready hitter i.e. Garko, and probably a AA outfielder or starter.


This has been addressed as well. If the price is too high, screw em'
Might not hurt to wet the ole' line though.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:51 pm

cinci is probably going to ask for at least a major league ready bullpen guy i.e. Betencourt or Perez, a major league ready hitter i.e. Garko, and probably a AA outfielder or starter.


Cinci can ask for 5 MLB starters, 4 infielders, 3 outfielders anda catcher, it sure does not mean they are going to get it.

I mean you guys evidently think Dunn stinks, so why would anyone give up all of that for him? They won't and either will we (at least I hope not).

Are you serious?

Garko (could play all 3 if he had to)
Victor (minus LF)
Pronk (minus c)
Nixon (minus C)

Those legitimate?


No, they are not. You ahve one OF even listed and I do not consider him a legitimate option for the position. You list a DH as a potential utility guy and a player who is so bad with a glove they wouldn't even play him untl they had to. Plus, you can remain infatuated with Garko, but his latest trend (1-30) is much closer to what I expect out of him that .385. That does not even take into account that your first baseman is on pace to hit 24 home runs and 24 doubles. Not exactly imposing.

Take away Victor from that crew you mentioned and there is not one player hitting the ball well lately.

Feel free to offer up suggestions for better options to look into than Dunn, but if it is August and you are still sending out Delucci/Michaels/Nixon/Garko at 3 corner positions, that is not good.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:03 pm

The Angels reportedly discussed a trade for Adam Dunn with the Reds, but backed away because the demands were too high.

Cincinnati is said to have asked for a "proven" pitcher and infielder, plus a top prospect. Dunn has the ability to void his $13 million contract for 2008 and become a free agent, which means the Reds will be hard-pressed to get that kind of return for him.



So Cliff Lee, Ryan Garko and Scott Lewis get it done?
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:21 pm

Also, Dunn is only two years older than Garko.
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Unread postby VultureHxC » Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:34 pm

ok, i like that dunn has power but his average sucks and he can kill a rally with a strikeout with ease. he plays horrible defense so it would be dumb to get him, especially since people continue to complain about our defense. that aspect makes no sense. he would require us giving too much to get him. giving up lee would be fine with me, but giving up garko and lewis leaves us with no one at first and depleted starting depth, especially since you consider lee would be traded, byrd is done after this year and we might possibly lose cc. that leaves carmona, miller, westbrook, and sowers as starters. that's pretty dumb. also, aren't we already a little too left handed hitter oriented? why is there no talk of going and getting a right handed bat like troy glaus or jermaine dye or brad hawpe or matt holliday?
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Unread postby VultureHxC » Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:54 pm

i actually found something pretty interesting

Home
.255/.397/.552

Away
.239/.369/.487

even more interesting about his stats are how he's played at home since the reds moved into great american ballpark

.260/.395/.585
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:58 pm

Again, if it takes too much to get him, you don't.

Again, there may be better fits, Pup felt this was viable.

Also, again, the guy has some problems, defense, low average, strikeouts.

One thing is crystal clear, warts and all, the guy is going to produce 9,000 more runs than anyone else they are currently running out to a corner outfiled spot. This, in a nutshell, is reason for the thread.

And while digging up stats, you might want to consider the amount of runs he produces, related to how many outs he makes.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:02 pm

VultureHxC wrote:why is there no talk of going and getting a right handed bat like troy glaus or jermaine dye or brad hawpe or matt holliday?

I like it, good list.

Now, Glaus seems like an injury risk, I'm not sure I'm excited by that. I would really doubt that Kenny Williams would trade us Dye for anything we'd be willing to part with, and I don't want to extend him (he's too old).

That leaves us with the Colorado yoots: any insight as to why they'd move young run producers? And how much of their numbers is due to park effects?
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Unread postby VultureHxC » Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:16 pm

i'd all be for getting adam dunn too but he's going to cost too much. the infielder they want is preferably a second baseman. plus i don't think adam dunn is that good of a player or is going to be good enough to get rid of even a top prospect for.

as for hawpe and holliday, i think i read something about how holliday is eligible for arbitration and with last season and how he's hit this season, he would make a lot of money and they don't think they could sign him to an extension so they would still listen to offers for him. not to mention he would still be under control of the team that gets him through 2009 (it would be his 6th major league season). i think hawpe is also in a similar situation with them.

as far as hawpe

Home
.267/.353/.430

Away
.290/.370/.485

Holliday seems to be a Dante Bichette but has done better on the road this year

Home
.341/.396/.600

Away
.257/.308/.426 (career)
.321/.372/.522 (2007)

Holliday was also solid away last year
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:26 pm

Hawpe and Holliday sound like wonderful players, but as such, I'd be tremendously surprised if Colorado moved them. They sound like guys you build around, not guys you need to shed. But I certainly appreciate the idea, I like Virtual GM'ing.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:25 pm

right handed bat



+



brad hawpe


------------------------------------

Pup :lol:
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:28 pm

i'd all be for getting adam dunn too but he's going to cost too much. the infielder they want is preferably a second baseman.


Are they suddenly unhappy with Brandon Phillips? I will take him back too.

If Colorado looks to move anyone, it is Todd Helton and/or Garrett Atkins. They have no plans on moving Holliday or Hawpe.

Todd Helton is LH so we cannot get him, besides he will only go to Boston and Atkins is hitting .230ish.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:17 pm

God, I wosh we could get my felloe LSU Tiger, Brad Hawpe. That kid has a sweeet swing.

To Pup and Steve:

I knew I was leaving someone out of my argument and that guy is Casey Blake. There's another guy you can add to the Of/INF/DH list. I know he won't play the DH role, but he can be moved to RF and Marte can come back to 3rd, barring a slump in AAA (and we know he's not doing that). Casey isn't a fire starter, but he's been one of the most productive hitters as of late, even though his RBI total could be about 15-20 higher than it is, due to his bad efforst with runners on. Still, I agree, "The 3 Stooges" must cut into just one. I say keep Michaels. Let the other two clowns go play for contenders with too much money and trigger happy GM's. I doubt anyone takes Trot, though.

Adam Dunn is not the answer. My point was (and I admit I didn't convey it very well) that we have a DH guy - two of them. We have 156 guys who can play first, it seems. We have the ability to cover LF/RF. Are you guys already giving up on Franklin g? Do we have any tolerance for young players, especially those meshing with veterans? Choo can come up if he had to, no? I really expected him to be a starter by now. Adam Dunn is terrible in the field. He is no good on the basebapths. He strikes out just as much as DD. He has power - thanks, but we have plenty. I want a guy in the rotation, 2 in the pen, and maybe we have enough to get a more well-rounded player. Maybe. Adam Dunn would be a tremenodus upgrade from what we have now, but so would Steve Phillips tied to a stump. That's why getting another bat should not be the primary focus. Adam Dunn is not about to come to another team and increase how good that team is by 20 wins. He would be a DH and that measn that Pronk or Garko would have to go. Garko - don't be so hard on him. He's got a lot of promise. He's a solid fielder and a smart player. He's very young. Pronk, honestly, I could love without, but I don't want to get ride of him unless it's a #2 guy in the rotation.

Cincy, I'm afraid, isn't about to trade Dunn to us in exchange for Michaels and Nixon. Wouldn't it be nice if they did!
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:18 pm

I knew I was leaving someone out of my argument and that guy is Casey Blake. There's another guy you can add to the Of/INF/DH list. I know he won't play the DH role, but he can be moved to RF and Marte can come back to 3rd, barring a slump in AAA (and we know he's not doing that)


Dude, If Marte becomes a viable option for this team, this year, than we can forget this entire conversation. Hate to break it to you, ain't happening. And I LOVED that trade, but the kid isn't ready. Maybe 2008.

Therefore, remove Blake from your OF equation. That means we are still looking at Delucci, Nixon and Michaels playing the 2 corner OF spots and Ryan Garko playing 1st base. Again, not going to get it done. Promise. They need to upgrade at one of those positions, if not 2.

even though his RBI total could be about 15-20 higher than it is, due to his bad efforst with runners on.


If this was a par 4, that statement would be a drive down the middle, mid-iron onto the green and two putt.



We have 156 guys who can play first, it seems.


It amy seem that way, but in reality we have 1.84. Garko is about .75, Victor is about .62 and Hafner is .47.



We have the ability to cover LF/RF. Are you guys already giving up on Franklin g? Do we have any tolerance for young players, especially those meshing with veterans? Choo can come up if he had to, no? I really expected him to be a starter by now


I am more than ready for any or all of these guys to appear. The problem is Eric Wedge and Mark Shpiro are not. They are afraid of the kids. It took Juan Gone going down to get Grady freaking Sizemore a shot. Fausto Carmona was a beast in ST and it took 2 injuries and then dominating up here to reserve him a full time spot. If you are looking to AAA to fix our problems, then you will be waiting until there is either no choice for Eric Shapiro to bring them up, give them extended time and have them perform.

Adam Dunn is terrible in the field.


No worse than Nixon or Delucci.

He has power - thanks, but we have plenty.


No such thing as plenty of power, IMO.



He is no good on the basebapths


So he would fit in well.

Adam Dunn would be a tremenodus upgrade from what we have now, but so would Steve Phillips tied to a stump. That's why getting another bat should not be the primary focus. Adam Dunn is not about to come to another team and increase how good that team is by 20 wins. He would be a DH and that measn that Pronk or Garko would have to go.


So improving the team is not the goal? I never asked for this to be the primary focus and this is how this thread began:
I know we are more in need of a right handed bat and bullpen, but if the price is right do we make a move on Adam Dunn?


By most accounts, this is currently around a 90 win team. We are not looking for an increase of 20 wins, but 5 might be needed.

Garko - don't be so hard on him. He's got a lot of promise. He's a solid fielder and a smart player.


Sweet. promise don't win sausages. He is a skillet and dumb as a box of rocks, but he has hit at most levels. I just thing 1st base is a power position, and 20 ain't enough. Move Vic there, give Kelly most of the starts behind the dish and put Dunn in left or right and let's go mash the freaking baseball. No more Nixon. No more Delucci. Very little more Michaels.

Cincy, I'm afraid, isn't about to trade Dunn to us in exchange for Michaels and Nixon. Wouldn't it be nice if they did!


No they won't and yes it would be.

That is why I raised this trade offer:

So Cliff Lee, Ryan Garko and Scott Lewis get it done?
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:04 pm

Sweet. promise don't win sausages. He is a skillet and dumb as a box of rocks, but he has hit at most levels. I just thing 1st base is a power position, and 20 ain't enough. Move Vic there, give Kelly most of the starts behind the dish and put Dunn in left or right and let's go mash the freaking baseball. No more Nixon. No more Delucci. Very little more Michaels.


He's hitting .300ish, with 8 HR's. He's young. We cannot just get rid of everyone who doesn't appear to be making the all-star ballot. Dumb? He went to Stanford.

The one thing we can agree on is no more DD and Nixon with very little Michaels. I am sick of seeing the "3 Stooges" as much as anyone. The Indians scouts I had dinner with are very, very high on Franklin and very perplexed about Choo's struggles. Wedge and Shapiro seem to be doing a great job of promising the kids one thing - a return trip to Buffalo, no matter what. I hope we do get a solid corner man, but Adam Dunn is the best we can hope for? I know you were trying to be humorous with "he'd fit right in", but seriously, we could use some speed other than Grady and Josh. I would love Adam's power...don't get me wrong, but remember: he'd be switching leagues and unfamiliar with 85 percent of the pitching and he strikes out entirely too much. We obviously don't care much for the likes and similar guys to Adam Dunn as Ben Broussard, Richie Sexon, and Russell Branyan were similar style hitters.

Meanwhile, we are stuck with Wedge as our mgr, who just happened to have a bright idea of batting Nixon and Garko in the 7-8 spots with a combined 0-32 slump. He did get one rbi out of the brilliant move. Can we trade Eric Wedge?

If the world were perfect, we could trade DD/Michaels/Nixon for Carl Crawford. Then, we could trade Wedge for a lot of cash. Wish.
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Unread postby furls » Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:30 am

I would much rather see the tribe get Ken Griffey Jr. if they are going to take a guy off of the Reds. Jr. is old and therefore, of less value to a team with no hope of competing within 2 years. Griffey is making a very "pedestrian" 9 million per year.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:41 am

My point before about Dunn being only two years older than Garko, extends beyond this particular trade debate. Point being, at his age Garko really isn't a huge prospect.

Also, after last night's game, to Pup's point. Dunn wouldn't have made those plays either. What's the difference?
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