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Your Top 5 Concerns as to why you're scared we will implode

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Your Top 5 Concerns as to why you're scared we will implode

Unread postby TribeinLA » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:13 pm

I will try to stay positive after this. This is basically straight rehashing on my part, but I did want to see if any of you had different and unmentioned concerns.

1. STARTING PITCHING (3-4-5): Sabathia will likely win 18-22 games and Carmona could easily get us 15-18. After that, nothing is for certain. Watching Paul Byrd getting rocked by Seattle is starting to worry me. Paul, as I mentioned before, is terrible against mediocre teams. Now, I do know that the Mariners are above .500, but this is not the same calibur Seattle club of the 90's and 2001. Byrd may have the worst record in the majors against KC. You do the math. If Cleveland is better than 11-12 other teams, then does Byrd beat those teams? Westbrook - ? Cliff Lee is just not going to return to form any time soon. No out pitch and hanging breaking balls = trouble. The 5th spot is a mystery. So what do we do? We need to add an arm and I don't care if it's not a lefty. Get rid of some expendable players. Hell, shop Soppach around, if need be ( I just hated typing that). If Garko can get us an arm, why not? Marte? Put him on a platter and serve him up.

2. BULLPEN. Remember the good ole days of Alan Embree, Eric Plunk, Julian Tavarez, and Jose Mesa? It could be like that again. John Hart built hsi teams around power and power relieving. Betancourt is an ace in the hole. Everyone else loosk suspect or even bad. Borowski needs a 4-1/6-3 lead at all times. Perez will be there eventually. Futlz and Mastny are not going to carry us into October. Cabrera? Hello? Get Oldberto off this team and bring up someone from Buffalo. Here is where I'd like to trade a guy like Choo or a Marte. Get 2 solid hands for one up and comer. The future is already here.

3. The Corner OF's. Someone made a great point earlier - we used to have Albert Belle and Manny. Now we have "The Three Stooges". How do we fix this. is any other franchise willing to pay DD 3 million bucks a year? Michaels has little to no value. Trot Nixon is M.S.'s man crush. I am an Indian and as long as these guys are on my team, I will pull for them. We don't need them, though. Really...we don't. We can get as much production from Franklin G and Choo. is there any way we can make a deal for a bullpen hoss and get a corner guy in return. GOD I WISH WE HAD CARL CRAWFORD!

4. Eric Wedge. Ok, yesterday, no one wanted to see CC leave the game. We were all wanting him to get that 10th win. I say "we" because I am one of them. I'm the guy that wants to throw on 3rd and 2 when we're up 55-0. But WEDGE has to be the guy to say, "See. I told you so. We didn't need CC in there." It's a 0-0 game, clown! Take him out and get Franklin or Jason on second and we WIN. That was the 2nd dumbest move to bringing in Joe Borowski in a non save situation in NY. CC did not need to be lumbering out there yesterday. That was a crock and Wedge is a fool for getting outsmarted by a NL manager. Wedge walked into Cinergy and must have thought he was in Comerica, because adjustments were few and far between and he let the other league's style of play eat him up. Oh yeah and Casey Blake knows how to bunt. I saw him do it before. So bunt him! WEDGE????

5. The rest of the Central. Maybe this should be first. God only knows that the Twins will heat up. The Tigers are just going to get better. They hit their slump and it's over. They embarrassed the Mets. I just hope we can pick it up like we did in that stretch 2 weeks ago. The ChiSox still have Ozzie pulling them into hell, but they have too much talent to stay down. Right now, we are the 2nd best club, even though we are in first. Detroit has a better lineup and when they get healthy, it's no contest. Look at their corner OF's compared to ours!


Thoughts? Complaints?
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Unread postby swerb » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:36 pm

5. The rest of the Central. Maybe this should be first. God only knows that the Twins will heat up. The Tigers are just going to get better. They hit their slump and it's over. They embarrassed the Mets. I just hope we can pick it up like we did in that stretch 2 weeks ago. The ChiSox still have Ozzie pulling them into hell, but they have too much talent to stay down. Right now, we are the 2nd best club, even though we are in first. Detroit has a better lineup and when they get healthy, it's no contest. Look at their corner OF's compared to ours!

I'm starting to wonder about some of the Central competition.

The Tigers bullpen is really, really bad right now. I can't see them winning 95 games with a back end of Seay, Ledezma, Byrdak, and Todd Jones ... who I think has reached the end of the road. They desperately need Rodney to get his mojo back. They've just been scoring runs at an absurd rate as of late, but I don't think they can keep it up. Even if they do manage to keep Sheff, Pudge, Maggs, and all those other old guys healthy all season.

The Twins? Best bullie in the bigs, Santana, Morneau, and Mauer. Other than that ... they're weak just about everywhere else. If some of those kids like Baker, Slowey, Bonser, eventually Garza ... can emerge this year, thats the team that worries me most.

Chisox appear to be circling the drain. Crede and Erstad are hurt. Dye and Konerko are both slowing down. The rotation has hung in there, but the bullpen sucks this year outside of Jenks. And Ozzie is a great manager on a winning team, but IMO helps contribute to one that is losing.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:21 pm

I'm becoming worried about Paul Byrd, four awful starts in a row. In 22 innings he has given up an astounding 39 hits, and 16 earned runs. He had been giving up a lot of hits in his earlier starts too, but seems to be imploding.

I would give him a couple of more starts, but if this continues I think he is either hurt or going through a dead arm.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:26 pm

Three concerns that come to mind.

-If Paul Byrd is in your playoff rotation, that will not be good. The guy didn't rejuvenate himself at this age with a new pitch or whatever. The guy gives up a ton of hard hit balls. Many found gloves early in the season, however, these things have a way of evening out. His ERA will be around 5, just like last year.

- Joe Borowski and his endless supply of belt high fastball and hanging breaking balls scares the hell out of me. Guys should be a little uncomfortable hitting in the 9th.

-Defense at short.

I know there aren't answers this year for some of these, but they should be a concern.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:35 am

ArtGold wrote:I'm becoming worried about Paul Byrd, four awful starts in a row.

Um ... how are you spinning the 5/30 6-inning 2-run (1 earned) start as "terrible?" Yeah, he gave up 9 hits, but last time I checked, the counting stat that was important was "runs."

(FWIW, I consider 4 runs in 6 innings, which he did in the other two starts 6/6 and 5/25, to be "kinda bad" rather than "awful." Yeah, it's a 6.00 ERA, but it's not very bad.)

This doesn't mean the rotation isn't a concern, because it clearly is, but Byrd hasn't been terrible for a long stretch. He sure was terrible last night, though. Ptui!
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Unread postby pod2dawg » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:18 am

Some short sweet redundancies from last night's $7 beer and Fireworks Festival at the Jake:

Positive version:

1. We have heart and play hard.
2. Grady is AWESOME.
3. Victor is a freakish hitter, and is very good at blocking the plate making Trott's throw-out possible.
4. Garko is learning to play D.
5.Blake is a baseball player.

The negatives:

1. Jhonny can hit & has improved on D but really doesn't have the range.
2. We left 13 baserunners on.
3. Everything being said about the corner OF ers is true.
4. Somebody named Ibanez had 2 homers, a triple, and a double last night. ( he's a corner OF).
5. Ichiro could hit with a blindfold on, is a great lead-off hitter and plays a scrappy CF....would look great in LF or RF for us.
6.Garko is getting schooled at the plate.
7. Pronk is struggling but he'll come out of it.
8. Byrd is a #5 starter. Watch him bounce back next start.
9. Yes, we need bullpen help...sooner than later. Usual suspects.

There are many more minor indesgressions which were pointed out by my 7 yr. old, and I must admit it is getting more and more difficult to make exucses. I fall back alot on "this is only one game in a long season"....and , " hey, we're in first place."
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Unread postby ArtGold » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:48 am

Well Steve, I'm looking at the combined performance. If he had a single bad game and I was melding these to show worse performance than had been demonstrated, I would agree with your point. However, he has a pattern emerging of getting smacked around pretty well.

Take a look at his record as the year went on last season, beginning in July. He had 15 starts in that period, and only 5 were quality starts (at least 6 innings and allowing no more than 3 earned runs). Now, quality starts isn't a really tough hurdle, a 4.50 ERA if you meet the objective, and he generally seems to struggle to achieve this. Prior to July 1st, he made 16 starts, and 10 were quality starts. That is a pretty strong split season difference, and minimizes the statistical impact of a couple of horrible games.

If he has a couple of additional bad starts, meaning less than quality starts, I would be concerned that this spot in the rotation may be a problem. To sum it up, he appears to deteriorate somewhat as the season wears on, and it would indicate to me that the Indians would need to generally score at least 6 runs to win a game Paul starts. That is a lot of pressure to put on an offense.
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Unread postby Charboneau » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:50 pm

The negatives:

1. Jhonny can hit & has improved on D but really doesn't have the range.
2. We left 13 baserunners on.
3. Everything being said about the corner OF ers is true.
4. Somebody named Ibanez had 2 homers, a triple, and a double last night. ( he's a corner OF).
5. Ichiro could hit with a blindfold on, is a great lead-off hitter and plays a scrappy CF....would look great in LF or RF for us.
6.Garko is getting schooled at the plate.
7. Pronk is struggling but he'll come out of it.
8. Byrd is a #5 starter. Watch him bounce back next start.
9. Yes, we need bullpen help...sooner than later. Usual suspects.

Another huge negative is Trot Nixon 0-5. People are jumping on the Byrdman for looking old - how about Nixon? I hope he gets less and less starts as the year goes on. Great clubhouse guy I know and a winner to boot - but I'll take Gutierrez or Choo. Sick of him looking bad at the plate in big time situations.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:51 pm

He sure was terrible last night


That was not the end of it. Would you say over the course of the last two seasons that Byrd has been better or worse than you expected? I would hope you'd say worse.

Again, I have watched him since he was at LSU. If there's one pitcher I know, it's him. He was almost a power pitcher growing into the majors. he is certainly an off speed guru now, but when he's not spotting his pitches and getting the strike zone, HE IS A DEAD DUCK. He has been rocked in 4 games this season that I can think of - not too bad. He pitched well vs. Boston and Detroit. It's too bad we can't just get to the playoffs now, because I think he'll do well. He is a student of the game and always has been. He knows what Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, Gary Sheffield, Ivan Rodriguez, and company like because he's been pitching at them for 15 years. Now, Mark Teahen, Raul Ibanez, and Alex Gordon are a different story. Paul, like Chuck Finley, rises to beat the great teams and then gets hammered by the subpar ones on week nights in front of 18,000 fans.

What, in essence is Byrd? He's the same pitcher that Shapiro will continue to bring in, year after year. Shapiro thought Kevin Millwood was Sandy Koufax and brought him in and then said, "Oh my God! I'm actually paying this guy over 4 million! What have I done! Let me see if Neal Heaton, Teddy Hugeria, or Mark Gubicza are still pitching!" Shapiro believes that CC is the man and Carmona, while a blessing for us, is not going to be for spending money. Shapiro will never get the Priors, Becketts, and Oswalts of the league because he's too cheap. We wouldn't pay Bartolo. Why would we pay anyone else? Shapiro will continue to get Paul Byrds, Scott Elartons, and Jason Johnsons and that's why we'll never win a World Series under him. If we go to the playoffs, we will go with the weakest staff. We might match anyone at 1 and 2, but if Lee or jake can't get back on track and we get to the post season, we will have to rely on Byrd. I don't want to do that. I want one more arm. In '01, we had Colon, Finley the Yankee killer, and Sabathia. Colon was tough and Finley ran into the mariners instead of NY. Sabathia got 400 runs in the game 3. Call me crazy, but the '01 staff was much more playoff ready than this one is. Carmona and his continued success and health are a big piece of that playoff puzzle.

Yes, earlier I made a rediculous idea to get Bedard from baltimore. I was just living in a fantasy. The Orioles would be fools to trade him for Marte and other prospects, but I've seen dumber!
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Unread postby Mcreek » Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:39 pm

Shapiro will never get the Priors, Becketts, and Oswalts of the league because he's too cheap. We wouldn't pay Bartolo. Why would we pay anyone else? Shapiro will continue to get Paul Byrds, Scott Elartons, and Jason Johnsons and that's why we'll never win a World Series under him


Great point because we just passed one up in the draft last thursday, a kid compared favvorably to Josh Beckett named Rick Porcello who dropped all the way to the Tigers (#27) because of signabilty questions. Meanwhile we drafted an easy sign DH named Beau Allred,,, err Beau Mills :lol:
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:59 pm

Beau Allred... :lol: :lol: :lol: The "success to Joey Belle's tear at Canton Akron". Maybe Luis Medina will come back and hit 40 HR's for us, too.


I really want a pitcher. Did we really need another DH type prospect? Are we already preparing for 2014?
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Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:29 am

The notable free agent signings, Delucci, Nixon, Borowski, Fultz. At the end of the year are we going to be saying that not one of these guys made a bit of difference?
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Unread postby Hoover » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:13 pm

TribeinLA wrote:Beau Allred... :lol: :lol: :lol: The "success to Joey Belle's tear at Canton Akron". Maybe Luis Medina will come back and hit 40 HR's for us, too.


I really want a pitcher. Did we really need another DH type prospect? Are we already preparing for 2014?


With Hafner probably leaving after 2008, they'll need another LH DH type. It's even money they never sign Pronk. He turned down $60 mill over 5 years, according to Gammons.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:28 pm

My top concerns why we'll implode:

1) We need help to fill holes & there is no help to be had at Buffalo. Therefore, if we get any help, it will have to be at the trade deadline. That will cost propsects &/or money. Shapiro has refused to trade prospects at the trade deadline in the past 5 years & Dolan has refused to spend to get help at the trade deadline in the past 5 years. Unless this season is different from all the rest, we will have to live with the team that we now see except for Jake & possibly Marte.

2) We just got off a stretch of 12 games against 2 of the worst teams in MLB in KC & Cincy. We went 6-6. Tougher competition as well as tougher times are ahead.

3) Joe Borowski has pitched way over his head. He will implode now that AL teams have seen his "stuff". That 90% save rate? Going down....way down.

4) Pronk is a shadow of Pronk. Hammy stated that teams aren't afraid to pitch inside to him because he can't get around on an inside fastball. Not good.

5) Health. Aside from Jake, we've been healthier than just about all of our competition. The law of averages says that we'll suffer some injuries in the 2nd half. If those injuries are to guys like Nixon, Dellucci or Oldberto, it may be a blessing. If injuries occur to CC, Carmona, Grady or Vic....stick a fork in us. We'll be fortunate to finish above .500 if that happens.

6) Eric Wedge. The AAA manager is still connected to Shapiro's hip & continues to be an anchor around the team's neck..
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