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Jeremy Guthrie

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Jeremy Guthrie

Unread postby Mcreek » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:13 pm

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Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:51 pm

He only has eight starts this year but it looks like he finally may have figured out how to pitch at age 28.

This reminds me of last year when Mota was horrible for us and became a great pitcher the instant he got to the Mets.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:13 am

He actually pitched pretty well at Buffalo last year, finishing 6th in ERA with a 3.14, and giving up only 104 hits in 13 innings. All scouting reports I saw mentioned him throwing in the low to mid 90's, so it must have been movement or secondary pitches that made the Indians believe he wouldn't be a major league pitcher.

Obviously that wasn't correct.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:41 am

Good for Jeremy.

I can't fault the Indians here. Even if he'd have stuck, he'd have been in a Jason Davis type role and never had the chance to get going. Sometimes you just run out of time with a player. Plus, we had viable alternatives to him when he was lost.
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Unread postby Mcreek » Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:07 am

Prosecutor wrote:He only has eight starts this year but it looks like he finally may have figured out how to pitch at age 28.

This reminds me of last year when Mota was horrible for us and became a great pitcher the instant he got to the Mets.


Being liberated from Carl Willis may have been the best thing to happen to both Mota and Guthrie. Oddly enough Guthrie couldn't throw strikes in his brief tenure in Cleveland last year but suddenly develops command with a real pitching coach. Now we also have three other young pitchers that are badly underachieving in Lee-Sowers and Fernando Cabrera.

Guthrie should have been given Byrds September starts last year when the team was way out of contention but they chose this brilliant idea of trying to make this kid a reliever just like the failed attempts with Jason Davis and Carmona.
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:20 am

I agree, we see alot of these younger pitchers failing under Carl Willis's tutelage. Jason Davis, Jeremy Guthrie, Fernando Cabrera, and Jeremy Sowers. Maybe Willis is ok with a vet where all he has to do is tweak a few mechanical issues, but as for fixing and develoing yound pitchers, he is letting us down big time. Kind of scares me as to what will happen when he gets a chance to coach Adam Miller.
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Unread postby Prosecutor » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:09 am

So far Willis hasn't screwed up Carmona too much. As for Sowers, Consig made a good comparison between him and Cliff Lee. Lee went 9-1 his first half-season with the Tribe, then got killed in the second half. The next year he won 17 games, which was a fluke, but he's developed into a decent 4th starter.

Sowers was lights out in his first half-season and now is getting hammered, just like Lee. I expect he'll eventually settle in as a guy who can go 14-10 for a top-five offensive team like the Indians.

Guthrie just took too long to develop. By the time he started looking like a major league pitcher we already had CC, Westbrook, Lee, and Byrd, and Guthrie had been passed up by Sowers and Carmona as prospects.

Still, the Willis thing bears watching. Let's see if Cabrera can get straightened out.
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Unread postby Hoover » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:09 am

In nearly 5 years Willis has been with the Tribe, I can't recall a pitcher praising him. If they have, feel free to include a link.

A couple of pitchers improved since 06. Can Carmona's awesome pitching be traced to Willis? It's more likely Carmona got better once he was out of the pressure-packed closer job. Starting comes naturally to him, it's what he was trained to do in the minors.

Byrd's improvement was done by Byrd himself, learning the split in the offseason. Props to him for making the effort.

Young pitchers like Guthrie, Ferd, Sowers don't get better under Willis's supervision. Older pitchers might, but examples don't spring to mind.
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Unread postby neoleo » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:22 pm

Prosecutor wrote:This reminds me of last year when Mota was horrible for us and became a great pitcher the instant he got to the Mets.


Guthrie doesn't seem like the kind of guy to do steroids, but I could be wrong.
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:34 pm

Well he is with Mazzone who for a short time straightened out Jaret Wright down in Atlanta. However once Jaret left Leo's watchful eye, he went back to being a thrower instead of a pitcher.
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Unread postby Mcreek » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:40 am

Guthrie with last nites domination (9K"S/1 walk-1 run-8-IP) now leads AL starters in ERA with a 1.71 ERA (As a Starter).
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Unread postby Babrook » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:31 am

Mcreek wrote:Guthrie with last nites domination (9K"S/1 walk-1 run-8-IP) now leads AL starters in ERA with a 1.71 ERA (As a Starter).


All we need is this kid winning the Cy Young. Thats all we need.


The thing that gets me is that his talent is wasted. The Orioles suck. They will suck for awhile.
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Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:39 am

Stanford had a 3.14 ERA at Buffalo this year before being called up, same ERA as Guthrie had there last year. That's why I don't want to see us dump Stanford for some prospect in A ball until we get a chance to see what he can do in the bigs.

Sometimes a player just needs to be put in the right role and given the opportunity. Look at Fausto Carmona. They could see he had filthy stuff so they tried him as a closer. Didn't work, but when he got a chance to start due to an injury he showed he can be a dominant starter. Same thing with Guthrie, he just needed some time to figure it out and a chance to start every five days. If Byrd doesn't show immediate improvement I'd put him in long relief and put Stanford in the rotation for a month.

I'm not saying Stanford will lead the AL starters in ERA if we put him in the rotation, like Guthie is doing. I'm saying let's not throw this guy away too soon like we did with Guthrie and Brandon Phillips.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:19 pm

Agreed, but you have to put folks where they can be successful. I don't know if he can pitch relief, as Carmona demonstrated many pitchers don't have the ability to move back and forth.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:27 pm

I've listened to parts of the last 3 O's games on XM. The announcers can't stop raving about how great Guthrie's stuff is. They are stating that his off speed pitches are around 75 MPH with movement & his fastball is topping out at 97 MPH with movement.

I didn't ever see Guthrie throw like that while with the Tribe. Mazzone has quickly gotten him back on track & has undone whatever our minor league gurus "done".

If a big league starter averages less than 1 hit/inning, he is doing good. Guthrie is averaging less than 1 base runner/inning; which is better than what CC has ever done in his career. This hasn't been over 2-3 starts, it's been 1/3 of the year. It's not a fluke.

As the O's announcer stated last week: "every time I see this kid Guthrie pitch, I've gotta ask myself, what the heck happened in Cleveland that this kid didn't work out"?
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Unread postby ArtGold » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:31 pm

Think the Indians are having this discussion too?
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Unread postby drum » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:25 pm

just like with Phillips leaving and whooping it up in cinci
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Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:29 pm

just like with Phillips leaving and whooping it up in cinci




It is nothing like that. Guthrie had chances to be on this team. He wasn't DFA because of his attituda, or the manager did not like him. It was because for the last 3 or 4 years he has gotten hit hard in this organization. Did the coaching have something to do with him sucking? Maybe, maybe not.

This happens quite a bit with pitchers. It just takes a different set of eyes to notice something sometimes and then it is an easy fix.
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Unread postby drum » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:33 pm

I was speaking more along the lines of leaving and finding instant success, but I do agree with you on those points
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Unread postby pup » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:37 pm

Sorry. Been a littly edge around here today :lol:
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Unread postby drum » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:45 pm

Pup wrote:Sorry. Been a littly edge around here today :lol:


eh I could have been more clear. Cleveland teams always have me on edge, been the catalyst to a few phones thrown across the room :^)
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Unread postby consigliere » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:49 pm

Pup wrote:It is nothing like that. Guthrie had chances to be on this team. He wasn't DFA because of his attituda, or the manager did not like him. It was because for the last 3 or 4 years he has gotten hit hard in this organization. Did the coaching have something to do with him sucking? Maybe, maybe not.

This happens quite a bit with pitchers. It just takes a different set of eyes to notice something sometimes and then it is an easy fix.


Well said, and I concur.

I don't understand how any fans can really bitch about the loss of Guthrie. Because if you are, you are using hindsight to the nth degree.

Look, Guthrie was a complete mess until last year. He started to put it together in Buffalo some, but even then his peripheral stats were not all that great. And, when with the Indians, he was awful.

Would anyone SERIOUSLY have been happy with Guthrie making this team out of ST knowing how bad he was the previous season? And, if Guthrie had made the team out of ST, the Jason Davis would have been released, so we'd have another 10,000 threads on that then.

Sometimes you just run out of time with a player. They go elsewhere, get a fresh start, and things click. Bully for Guthrie. I don't see much fault with the Indians here....Phillips yes....but not this situation, which is completely different.
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