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Some of the latest rumors

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Some of the latest rumors

Unread postby dmcdougal » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:16 am

---- Cleveland has reportedly offered Troy Percival a contract and Mark Shapiro has stated that "It's in the agent's court."


---- Closer Jason Isringhausen is possibly on the trading block and the Indians/Cubs seem to be the highest suitors. Isringhausen is aging and the Cardinals seem to be confident that Wainwright would be a successful closer since his starting role hasn't gone as planned.


---- Tribe chasing ex-Royal Hernandez. Runelvys Hernandez is being purseued by both the Tribe and the Yankees.... Advantage- Yankees.


---- Cavs 95% likely to match any Varejao offer sheet.
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:18 am

Hernandez is already a Yankee
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:40 am

If Rune Elvis is a Yankee, that is Advantage Indians.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:51 am

I think Isringhausen would be a good fit, has pressure experience and is still competent. I think that he would be interesting if we can retain our farm quality while acquiring him. Don't know what the Cards would want, but something like Barton and Choo/Scott Lewis would be OK with me.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:53 pm

I would be hesitant on dealing Barton or Scott Lewis.

I'd be starting a prospect package with Choo/ BenFran/ FrankieG along with some pitchers.

I'm more willing to part with Aaron Laffey, Shawn Nottingham, Reid Santos, Nick Pesco and Cody Bunkelman.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:53 pm

Izzy would work for me to fill that void created by Foulke's retirement.

Don't know what the Cards would want, but something like Barton and Choo/Scott Lewis would be OK with me.


I think that you're on the right track with a starter and an OF. I would think that they might shoot a little higher than Scott Lewis, in terms of being able to contribute at Busch soon (Slocum, Sean Smith) or someone in the lower minors with high upside (actually, Lewis could certainly fall under that category).

Isringhausen is in line to make $8.75M this year with a club option for 2008 worth $8M, so prorating his $8.75M over a portion of the year would be in line with the Foulke money.
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Unread postby swerb » Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:58 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:If Rune Elvis is a Yankee, that is Advantage Indians.

LOL

What about dealing one of our young bullpen arms to the D-Rays for Denny Reyes? That cat is dealin this year ...
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:06 pm

How about getting K-Love from the Rangers, and moving Grady to the 3 hole?

Lofton
Blake
Grady
Victor
Pronk
Peralta
Nixon/Michaels
Garko
Barfield
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:20 pm

Pup wrote:How about getting K-Love from the Rangers, and moving Grady to the 3 hole?

Lofton
Blake
Grady
Victor
Pronk
Peralta
Nixon/Michaels
Garko
Barfield

Interesting ... you're putting Lofton in left? Has he ever done that? Or Sizemore, maybe ... has Michaels ever played right? (I mean, his non-pinch-hitting for Nixon becomes Completely Incomprehensible if he can, instead of Merely Asinine.)

I can't argue with your lineup, but it sure looks weird to banish the .320 hitter to the 8 slot. (Can't say I have a better configuration, though.)

Ultimately, I think this team's success is all about pitching. The offense is not just okay, it's quite good. The "marginal value" on the pitching staff is a lot higher (IMO, I'm allowed to have those too, right? ;-) ) than in the batting order. That's why the Gagnes and Isringhausens and Reyeses hold a lot more interest for me.

(BTW, Rich, I think you mean Al Reyes, not Denny.)
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Unread postby swerb » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:25 pm

(BTW, Rich, I think you mean Al Reyes, not Denny.)

Yeah, that's him.

It's like the Zendejas brothers, the guys that kicked in the late 80's early 90's in the NFL ... I can never get em straight.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:26 pm

What about dealing one of our young bullpen arms to the D-Rays for Denny Reyes? That cat is dealin this year ...


Al Reyes would fit the bill too. He's not a long-term answer, but that's not what they need.

I think that I had always heard is that the D-Rays didn't execute many trades because of their high asking prices. I'm not sure if that was with the old regime or not.

Tampa would move Reyes for a young starter.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:47 pm

Ultimately, I think this team's success is all about pitching. The offense is not just okay, it's quite good. The "marginal value" on the pitching staff is a lot higher (IMO, I'm allowed to have those too, right? ) than in the batting order. That's why the Gagnes and Isringhausens and Reyeses hold a lot more interest for me.


I agree. In no way is this the blockbuster of a move that I hope for. Just a little something extra on the side. Or as a throw in to a Gagne deal?

I am all for as much bullpen help as Mark can possibly acquire.

And for now, yes, you may still have an opinion, but one more attack of one of my posts and I am going to stop reading the B-List for 2 days :P :-P :razz:
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Unread postby Wahoot » Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:57 am

Pup wrote:How about getting K-Love from the Rangers, and moving Grady to the 3 hole?

Lofton
Blake
Grady
Victor
Pronk
Peralta
Nixon/Michaels
Garko
Barfield


No way. Statistically, Lofton's not much of an improvement over Dellucci, and there's no way I'd give him (and his .727 OPS) the extra at bats a leadoff hitter gets. Plus, by moving them down in the order, this lineup takes plate appearances away from Grady and Pronk.
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Unread postby pup » Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:44 am

No way. Statistically, Lofton's not much of an improvement over Dellucci, and there's no way I'd give him (and his .727 OPS) the extra at bats a leadoff hitter gets. Plus, by moving them down in the order, this lineup takes plate appearances away from Grady and Pronk.


Lofton is a different player on a 90 win club than a 90 loss club, I promise. And if they lose 10 AB over the course of the season, but the AB's they add are in more run producing situations, I am all for it.

Kenny (BTW Buff, I think he could handle left) could add a swagger and a true lead off hitter, allowing Grady to blossom into the three hole htter we all believe he is.

Didn't know OPS was such an important stat in a lead off hitter.
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Unread postby Guest » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:12 am

How about adding Ken Griffey Jr.?
I might enjoy that
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:23 am

I would never turn down Griffey.....but if we are going to add that kind of player making that kind of jack, go after one of the high-priced RH bats who probably fit this lineup better.
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Unread postby pup » Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:13 am

go after one of the high-priced RH bats who probably fit this lineup better.


Agree, but I don't know that there are many available.
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Re: Some of the latest rumors

Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:59 am

dmcdougal wrote:---- Cleveland has reportedly offered Troy Percival a contract and Mark Shapiro has stated that "It's in the agent's court."


Percival to St. Louis on a minor league deal.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2898087
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Unread postby Wahoot » Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:35 pm

Pup wrote:
No way. Statistically, Lofton's not much of an improvement over Dellucci, and there's no way I'd give him (and his .727 OPS) the extra at bats a leadoff hitter gets. Plus, by moving them down in the order, this lineup takes plate appearances away from Grady and Pronk.


Lofton is a different player on a 90 win club than a 90 loss club, I promise. And if they lose 10 AB over the course of the season, but the AB's they add are in more run producing situations, I am all for it.

Kenny (BTW Buff, I think he could handle left) could add a swagger and a true lead off hitter, allowing Grady to blossom into the three hole htter we all believe he is.

Didn't know OPS was such an important stat in a lead off hitter.


Are you sure you're not doing that "miss my ex-girlfriend" thing where you remember the good parts of the relationship but not the bad? :) The last three times Lofton played on 90 wins teams (2001 CLE, 2002 SFG, 2004 NYY), he posted some of his worse OBP numbers.

As for Grady losing at bats, moving him from 1st to 3rd would cost him about 36 PA per season. Pronk would lose about 18.
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Unread postby BruceK » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:49 pm

Has Lofton learned to hit the cut-off man since he left Cleveland?
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Unread postby pup » Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:30 pm

So you guys think David Delucci is better than Kenny Lofton?

I wish we had a coo-coo emoticon.
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Unread postby ACrank » Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:51 am

Lofton won't go somewhere where he can't play center. Thats why he didn't want to come back to the Indians in this past offseason.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:18 pm

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that we may just be better off sticking with what we have, with the exception of I would like an upgrade to the pen. Borowski seems to be OK in the closer role, not great but OK.

However, I don't see the Tribe sitting Dellucci, Michaels or Nixon so I can't see where another outfielder fits on this club. We have Barton, Francisco, Choo, Snyder and Gut right on the edge of ML play, and we need to make use of them eventually. Blake is acceptable as a temporary solution at 3rd, and Marte hasn't evaporated. So I guess we hold with what we have.

I still like Isringhausen, but don't know what we would need to trade to obtain him. I speculated a Barton and Lewis package, but don't know if either club would accept that.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:51 pm

I've been doing a little diging into the Cardinals system. I'm not proposing names to send out, only laying out some facts to consider.

The 1st hurdle to clear for any deal is getting Izzy to waive the complete no-trade clause. I would venture the Tribe would need to pick up his option for next season (at just under $9M). For arguement sake, let's say that gets the the no trade clause waived. Now we need to look at needs for the Cardinals.

The Cards are seeking starting pitching in general. The Cardinals farm system looks to have outfielders and right-handed pitching and seems to be limited at 1B, 2B, C and LHP. There is a chance that Marte and A. Cabrera would interest the Cards.

With all that said, I think Shapiro needs to be careful. Having lefty starters Lofgren, Lewis, Laffey, Nottingham and Huff is nice, but given the struggles of Lee and Sowers, I might be willing to deal off one of the later two and replace with someone from the earlier listing.
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Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:17 pm

I wish we had a coo-coo emoticon.


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Unread postby Wahoot » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:22 pm

Pup wrote:So you guys think David Delucci is better than Kenny Lofton?

I wish we had a coo-coo emoticon.


Dellucci is on the club to hit RHP. Here are his and Lofton's career splits against righties:

Lofton/Dellucci

OBP
.374/.356

SLUG
.438/.465

OPS
.812/.821

So, no, Lofton isn't significantly any better than Dellucci. Plus, if I understand your lineup correctly, you'd bat Kenny against lefties, which negates Jason Michaels' good splits against LHP.

I have nothing against adding Kenny to the roster. He's still a good player. But he doesn't offer much of an upgrade (if any) over Dellucci and, unless we find a taker for either Trot or David, we don't need another left-handed outfielder.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:38 pm

Delucci sucks donkey ass. That is all I am saying. His career splits against RH pitching mean absolutely nothing to me. He has NEVER had a season where he got everyday AB's and produced. Any numbers he has come from getting a few AB's here and there, never giving other teams the chance or reason to develop ways to pitch to him.

2006 is his best season, and he averaged 2 AB's per game played. I would take Kenny Lofton, Kenny Chesney, Kenny King or any other Kenny you want to throw this way over Delucci.

If you are really that concerned about getting Jason Michaels AB's, he can play right against lefties, instead of Trot.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:50 pm

Here you go Lucci, gain some respect. Bases loaded, down 2, nobody out.

I say he K's
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:17 pm

Another shot for Lucci....
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:17 pm

...another failure
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Unread postby StewieG » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:53 pm

FUDU wrote:
I wish we had a coo-coo emoticon.


Image


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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:17 am

Yeah, I'm officially off the Looch wagon. I hate it when there are guys I can't stand on the team....it seems they come up to bat or pitch in key situations every game.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:45 am

I have been neutral on Dellucci, I think he is a marginal starting outfielder, and shouldn't have been signed to the contract we provided.

For all of the past praise for Dellucci, I want to point out that in the 3 seasons he was given at least 300 ABs his BA was .260, .242 and .251. He has had one season in a 10 year career where he has hit over 17 HRs. I know he has had some limited playing opportunities, and in my view for good reason. If playing a bench role, as 4th outfielder, he is pretty valuable. If you plan on him being an everyday player, I think you will be disappointed. I think he will do somewhat better than he is currently producing, but I expect him to hit around .260 with 15 HRs, and not top his career high of 65 RBIs.

Sometimes I think folks fall to much in love with the historical splits, I don't know that they are great projection tools due to changes in number of games played.

I know a lot of folks have ripped Choo for being a worse alternative, but last season at AAA he hit .323/.394/.499/.893, with 13 HRs in his 375 ABs. With the Indians last year, he posted an OPS+ of 121, vs Dellucci's 125.

Oh, and Clay Davenports Ball Park Factors shows Tacoma, where Choo put up his stats last year as having a factor of 923, vs Buffalo's 1046, meaning he played in a park which somewhat deflates hitting performance.

He heated up lately in Buffalo but hasn't played the past few games. I haven't seen anything about an injury, but he hit .387 the last 8 games before he disappeared.

This isn't to tout Choo over Dellucci, but it seems his play last year indicated talent, as has his prior minor league experience. Perhaps his mediocre performance with Buffalo, with no power so far, is due to his disgust at being sent down. I had read some stuff about him reporting this spring a little on the chubby side, but Dellucci was signed long before spring training started, so this isn't a result of Choo's being out of shape.

Just my POV.
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Unread postby Wahoot » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:27 am

ArtGold wrote:I have been neutral on Dellucci, I think he is a marginal starting outfielder, and shouldn't have been signed to the contract we provided.

For all of the past praise for Dellucci, I want to point out that in the 3 seasons he was given at least 300 ABs his BA was .260, .242 and .251. He has had one season in a 10 year career where he has hit over 17 HRs. I know he has had some limited playing opportunities, and in my view for good reason. If playing a bench role, as 4th outfielder, he is pretty valuable. If you plan on him being an everyday player, I think you will be disappointed. I think he will do somewhat better than he is currently producing, but I expect him to hit around .260 with 15 HRs, and not top his career high of 65 RBIs.

Sometimes I think folks fall to much in love with the historical splits, I don't know that they are great projection tools due to changes in number of games played.


I hear what you're saying, but Dellucci's career splits include 2450 plate appearances against RHP. That's a pretty good sample size. It's possible he had career years in 2005 and 2006 and now, at age 35, he's washed up. But I don't expect him to finish the season with a .600 OPS.
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Unread postby Wahoot » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:41 am

Pup wrote:Delucci sucks donkey ass. That is all I am saying. His career splits against RH pitching mean absolutely nothing to me. He has NEVER had a season where he got everyday AB's and produced. Any numbers he has come from getting a few AB's here and there, never giving other teams the chance or reason to develop ways to pitch to him.


Tell us how you REALLY feel :) Look, I think Dellucci is the second most disappointing player on the team (behind Jerecliff Sowerslee), but you're arguing with your fists here. Dellucci has too had a season where he got "everyday" AB's and produced. As recently has 2005, in fact. Check out his gamelogs for the year:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl ... &year=2005

In 518 plate appearances, Dellucci's OPS was .880.

He sucks donkey ass so far, sure. But there's reason to believe he'll improve.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:35 am

In 518 plate appearances, Dellucci's OPS was .880.



And he hit .250. One season, he hit with some power and drew some walks and that fooled our GM. And it turns out it was a career year!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/delluda01.shtml

Now go find me another season that says, boy is we are the first team to decide to give this 33 year old outfielder everyday AB's we will look brilliant.
2006 - Pinch hit his way to a .292 average.
2005 - Needle anyone?
2004 - .240 as a regular.
2003 - .227/.313/.352
2002 - .245/.326/.402

Follow this link and look how is Ab's break down for his career.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bs ... 01&year=00

Go to defensive positions and you will see two things. He doesn't hit when he plays the field and he has almost as many games as a pinch hitter as anyhing else. There always have been and always will be players that cannot play everyday. They have to many holes and the more AB's they get, the more they are exposed.
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Unread postby Wahoot » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:55 pm

Pup wrote:And he hit .250.


You, dear Pup, must curb your reliance on BA. Really one of the less meaningful stats we have.

Pup wrote:2006 - Pinch hit his way to a .292 average.
2005 - Needle anyone?
2004 - .240 as a regular.
2003 - .227/.313/.352
2002 - .245/.326/.402


2006 - Exceeded his 2005 output.
2005 - See above. Also, pretty unfair.
2004 - You mention the .240 BA but not the .826 OPS against RHP.
2003 - .703 OPS against RHP. (worst year)
2002 - .782 OPS against RHP.

Pup wrote:He doesn't hit when he plays the field and he has almost as many games as a pinch hitter as anyhing else. There always have been and always will be players that cannot play everyday. They have to many holes and the more AB's they get, the more they are exposed.


Two things . . .

1) He posts a .764 OPS as a left fielder which while "not actually good" isn't nearly as craptacular as the 2007 David Dellucci you and I have come to know and love. Still, your observation is accurate: he hasn't hit as well as a left fielder. But he's hit just fine as a right fielder. Why would that be? Does playing left field REALLY mess up his batting?

2) Dellucci's one pace to get around 400 at bats this year (I'm guessing it will be less). Is that an everyday player?
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