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How about this trade idea?

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How about this trade idea?

Unread postby captain_wahoo » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:31 pm

I know this is radical and would never happen, but Hafner, Choo, Sowers and Marte to Kansas City for Zach Greinke, Alex Gordon, and David Dejesus. Put Gordon at third, move Blake to first, Garko to DH, and Dejesus in left. We would definately have some speed in DeJesus, Gordon, Sizemore, and Barfield. Like I said i know it won't happen, but with pronk turning down that big money, he probably is gone anyways. Kansas City would make him a crazy offer like they did with Meche. The other thing that would work for us is that if Greinke can regain his form, he goes into the rotation, and we could then afford to move Cliff Lee for some solid bullpen helpers. We would have a rotation of CC, Carmona, Westbrook, Byrd, and Greinke with Miller, Stanford, Sloccum, and Lofgren in the wings. Our lineup could be DeJesus, Blake, Sizemore, Martinez, Peralta, Nixon, Garko, Barfield, Gordon with a bench of Shoppach, Guttierez, Dellucci, and Rouse.
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Unread postby consigliere » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:40 pm

That is a horrible trade.

What are we getting in return for Hafner (let alone Sowers and Choo). If Shapiro ever did such a trade, I'd go down to Jacob's Field and shoot him and then shoot myself.
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:44 pm

What are we going to get for Hafner when he walks away for bigger money? Sowers...come on you have to be kidding, the guy has no confidence left and they leave him here to get beat up even more, not to mention he can't strike anyone out. Greinke has far more upside than Sowers. I would gladly take DeJesus over Choo and Gordon over Marte. I agree we would probably need another piece or two from the AAA and/or AA level to balance it out, but I'm not that familiar with KC's farm system.
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Unread postby consigliere » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:51 pm

Those players are not enough to even land Hafner in a 3-for-1 trade. No thanks.

Hafner is an impact bat. If we trade him, we sure as hell get at least one proven impact bat/pitcher in return.

I'd rather stick it out with Hafner and get two first round compensation picks for him if he leaves in FA.
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Unread postby jfiling » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:55 pm

KC could throw in Gil Meche :twisted:
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:55 pm

The rules have changes I believe, I don't think you get draft picks any longer
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:03 am

captain_wahoo wrote:The rules have changes I believe, I don't think you get draft picks any longer


http://www.theclevelandfan.com/article_ ... php?id=958

Draft Pick Compensation: There was no change in compensation for Type A free agents, as the team that loses a Type A player still gets a 1st or 2nd round pick from the signing club and a compensatory pick between the 1st and 2nd rounds. But, a tweak made to the compensation process for Type B free agents will help teams keep some of their draft picks when they sign a free agent. Effective immediately, Type B free agents were modified so that teams that lose Type B free agents now only get a sandwich pick between the first and second rounds and no longer receive a pick from the signing club.

Also, for players rated at their position, Type A free agents are now only the top 1-20% (previously 1-30%), Type B free agents are the top 21-40% (previously 31-50%), and Type C free agents were eliminated (previously 51-60%). The changes in the percentages actually will take effect next off-season.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:15 am

KC ain't trading Gordon.
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:18 am

I think they would if a marquee name like Hafner was coming their way. How about this Consig.....if the Yankees get out of their deal with Giambi, or trade him away (LAA are interested), then trade them Hafner for Phillip Hughes and another prospect. God knows Georgie loves bats and pitching is secondary.
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Unread postby Hoover » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:31 am

KC has nobody we need. Shapiro will never give away Hafner for peanuts, and that's all KC has. They're not even salted, and they taste bitter.

Pronk's contract isn't up until after next year. Why the bizarre trade ideas? There's no rush. They've just begun to negotiate. There's plenty of time.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:38 am

I don't trust Greinke in a high pressure pennant situation. I admire his comeback from his emotional problems of last year, but this is something that would give me pause in any kind of a significant trade. I wouldn't trade Hafner alone for all three.

But the way the Indians draft, I don't want the draft compensation choices either.
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:43 am

The rush is because Gammons said Hafner turned down 5 years 60 million. If that is indeed the case, then we will not sign him. To lock up a DH for more than that will not happen with the Dolans. CC is more important to keep than Hafner.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:35 am

captain_wahoo wrote:I think they would if a marquee name like Hafner was coming their way. How about this Consig.....if the Yankees get out of their deal with Giambi, or trade him away (LAA are interested), then trade them Hafner for Phillip Hughes and another prospect. God knows Georgie loves bats and pitching is secondary.


Trading Hafner, or Sabathia, for prospects just is not the right way to go about things.

Sure, Hughes and a prospect or two would look great, but it would be a HUGE PR disaster AND hit this team hard in the short team. I've said it before, we are in contending mode and not rebuilding mode. If you are in rebuilding mode, you make a Hafner/Sabathia trade for a Huges and prospects.

But, since we are contending, the ONLY was you trade Sabathia and/or Hafner is if you get proven major league talent in return, and preferably at least one impact player. Like when Texas dealt A-Rod to the Yankees, they didn't get prospects, they got Soriano.
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:06 am

The problem with that is that contending teams will be the ones looking to add marquee guys like Hafner and they won't fill one hole by creating another hole, so you won't get established stars in return. The trouble with letting them go and only getting draft picks is the picks could be busts and the fact that they take 3 to 5 years before they can contribute. That would be a worse PR nightmare, because the average fan doesn't want to hear about draft picks, because they aren't immediate sexy picks like the NFL or even the NBA. We need to start moving pieces that we can't sign like we did with Colon. Think where this team would be if we had moved Belle, Thome, and Manny for prospects. We would definately be in a stronger position with even better depth than we currently have. Look at Oakland, they move key guys that they can't resign and still are always in the playoffs or very close. I mean to loose Hudson, Mulder, Zito, Tejada, and Damon in recent years, you would think they would be bottom feeders, but they're not. They know when to cut their loses and make the smart move. I think we should throw everything at keeping CC, but I just can't see throwing more than the 5 years 60 million at a DH. Sure the general public will scream about cheap, but if the moves payoff and we win, all will be well. Remember the outrage at trading Bartolo, but that trade looks very good now and it's a trade that most if not all of us would make again in a heartbeat. I love Pronk, but we need to be realistic. I'm not saying throw up the white flag right now. Wait until the offseason and if you are convinced he won't resign trade him for prospects who you have scouted and are closer than draft picks. Not even necessarily prospects, the names I threw out from KC have a track record. Dejesus is a good hitter and good speed, and is very good defensively, kind of Grady-lite. Alex Gordon is an extremely highly regarded prospect that is struggling a little in his first year, but still shows sparks of why is so highly thought of. Greinke was lights out on a bad team, and tried to do too much, a change of scenery and he may very well flourish. Worst case scenario, he is still better than Lee or Sowers.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:11 am

I mean to loose Hudson, Mulder, Zito, Tejada, and Damon in recent years, you would think they would be bottom feeders, but they're not.


Didn't Hudson, Zito and Tejada all leave as free agents, not trades?

As mad as I am at Consig for being right about the Cavs right now, he is dead on with this take. If they trade CC or Pronk, this year, when they have them under control for another season and a half it would be near the end of baseball in Cleveland.

The Indians HAVE to win these next couple of years or they will be totally off the Cleveland sports radar. The Cavs will be a contender for the foreseeable future and most believe the Browns are going down the right path (not that is matters, they are the Browns and will always draw interest). If the Tribe starts dumping bona fide stars, because they cannot re-sign them in 2 years, then you might as well give up on them.
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:17 am

I'm not saying this year. I said in the offseason, if it looks impossible move them and get big return. That way if attendance starts out slow, but they win all can be forgiven. Plus, I am against trading CC, I say back the Brinks truck up for him. Hafner as good as he is, is replacable. He's 30 and already has a bad elbow, giving him more than 5 years is foolish. Giving him more than 12 million a year means no chance at CC. An Ace pitcher is more valuable than a DH.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:33 am

I agree with you captwahoo, but I would trade BOTH Sabathia and Hafner this offseason for a boatload of prospects if I believed I wasn't capable of signing either. I would try for a mix of major league ready and high ceiling, low level guys. My goal is to have a team capable of winning 90 games every single year, forever. I take my chances that we can get over the top, contending is my goal.

I would do this even if we played in the World Series this season.
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Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:18 am

The thing is, ArtGold, CC and Pronk are both Type A free agents, so if they sign elsewhere we would get that team's first round pick plus a sandwich pick between the first and second rounds in '09. So we would essentially get four first round picks if they walked.

If we trade them we also could get some great prospects, the difference being that we could pick guys who are already in the minors and are doing great, so the risk would be lower. But we give up having Pronk and CC in '08, which could cost us a World Series appearance.

As much as it makes sense in the long run to keep doing Colon type deals instead of letting players walk like Manny and Thome, I think the Tribe has a golden opportunity to go all the way in '08, and they have to go for it. With a staff of CC, Carmona, Westbrook, Miller, and Byrd they would have the best starting five in the league. Sowers and Lee could be converted to relievers, since I'm not sure either has the stuff to consistently win as starters. They could be very effective only pitching an inning or two at a time and facing mostly lefties. Lee in particular has a history of starting out well and then getting hammered in the 5th or 6th inning. That would really improve the bullpen. Or they could be packaged for a better bat in LF or RF.

If the Tribe goes to the playoffs this year and turns a profit, it could make enough money to improve the bullpen in free agency, or add a power bat in the outfield. With the right moves this could be one hell of a team in '08, better than they are now. Like Consig said, they're contenders now, not rebuilders like they were when they dealt Colon. I'd keep CC and Pronk, take our shot at the brass ring in '08, and hope we hit it big with a couple of those compensatory first round picks we get for them.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:47 am

I think we should trade Hafner and one pitcher to the Orioles for Bedard and Mora and some cash.

Obviously, of our 4 big stars, Pronk will be the easiest to let go. Your trade to KC actually sounds like something Mark would do. I bet mark would go out to a bar and get loaded and watch KC vs. Texas on televsion and think, "I can give up CC and Grady and get Jimmy Gobble, J. Buck, and Alex Gordon in return!"
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:37 pm

We don't need Mora, he is getting a little long in the tooth. If we dealt with Baltimore, like you said I'd want Bedard and I like that outfielder of theirs Markakis.
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Unread postby TribeinLA » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:14 pm

Good point. Could you imagine this rotation next season!:

1. Sabathia
2. Bedard
3. Carmona
4. Westbrook
5. A. Miller
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:13 pm

Trade Jeremy Sowers, Hafner, Cabrera and Marte forEric Bedard and Chad Bradford.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:49 pm

Prosecutor, I love draft picks, but hate the way the Tribe drafts. In addition, keep this in mind in evaluating alternative approaches, if you pick up high talent minor league players the OTHER CLUB paid the bonus money, while if we obtain draft picks WE pay the bonus money.

With the Indians, I believe this is a major consideration. Think they want to add $5 million to their draft budget to sign 4 additional high picks? That doubles their budget.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:14 pm

ArtGold wrote:With the Indians, I believe this is a major consideration. Think they want to add $5 million to their draft budget to sign 4 additional high picks? That doubles their budget.

And this drives me crazy. Hm, would I rather sign four players with much higher ceilings, or get a year of Oldberto Hernandez? (modulo a mill, you see what I mean)

I'd be plowing so much money back through the farm system it would make rural North Carolinians weep.
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Unread postby tribefan333 » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:43 pm

I don't think KC would do this just on the fact that the entire city is begging Gordon to be a star and I've heard is 100% behind him.
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