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Chief Wahoo

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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:09 pm

1Perry wrote:When the Chief is phased out someone will find offense with the color red.


Yes.

...and the name "Indians".

...and the fact that 44,000... errr 4,500 fans in the stadium are allowed in with CW apparel.

...and the fact that somebody talked shit to the opposing third baseman.

...and the fact that a 35 yr old man caught a foul ball in row 23 but didn't give it to the kid in row 18 that he cannot even see.

... at some point the clouds in the sky I'm sure.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby gotribe31 » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:21 pm

I hope you're happy, Kramer.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:25 pm

1Perry wrote:When the Chief is phased out someone will find offense with the color red.


Deep thoughts, by 1Perry
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:26 pm

gotribe31 wrote:I hope you're happy, Kramer.


:lmfao: :lmfao: :thumb up: (mooning) :cheers:
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Love child of shawn kemp » Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:21 pm

Racism by definition includes intolerance and hatred. A feeling that your cultural background is superior and, thus, others are inferior. I do not think Chief Wahoo rises to this level. Insensitive, racially intolerant perhaps. But I do not think there is any hatred or intent to ridicule NA's. This is not meant as disrespect, but I nothing Native Americans. I do not think I know any, do not see them during the course of my day and when I see Chief Wahoo, all I see is a logo for my local team. That goes for any of the Indian themed teams. Redskins to me is nothing more than a football team. It does not bring to mind the Native American culture. If the Indians see fit to eliminate the Chief Wahoo logo I guess I don't really care. It would just leave us with another professional team without a logo like the Browns.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Spin » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:47 pm

Best post of the thread.

I'm going to stock up on gear with my favorite logo (when I was a kid falling in love with baseball) before it's all gone.

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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby 7foot3 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:45 pm

peeker643 wrote:LOL at the guys who won't voice an opinion or answer a simple question and then LOL at something that actually was researched.

Cite your sources as to the percentage of people who find the logo or name racist or insensitive. Please. It would make things so much easier to discuss.

It was a two minute Google search. Which is two minutes more than you or Pup will take to quantify when a reaction is required. So when you guys actually answer the question then I think we can look further at the issue. Or you can stand behind the Mapplethorpe argument which will allow YOU to decide what's insensitive.

How much of the native american population has to object or find the logo (or name) racist before it should be changed?

I can't ask it any more simply than that.

How many people need to be offended on ANY subject for their to be a response?

Just one person? 5%? 25%? A majority?

Not really a difficult question at all.


That wasn't research. SI won't reveal the details of how their numbers were obtained, so we can do nothing but call it flat out bullshit. As for Annenberg, at least they published how their study worked. Here's a response

http://ipclinic.org/2014/02/11/11-reasons-to-ignore-the-10-year-old-annenberg-survey-about-the-washington-football-teams-offensive-name/

A serious problem here is that you think a two minute google search is enough to answer the questions. That's ridiculous.

Here's your answer. No American Indians should have to speak in objection to the logo for it to change, because the logo is offensive and inappropriate. Period.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:22 pm

I wore a Chief Wahoo cap to work on Friday. Without any preamble, I asked the 2 Native Americans in my company if they were offended by it. Both looked at me blankly. Even after explaining to them why they should find it racist, they both laughed it off. And my company is in Brooklyn, where we're privileged to have people that find anything from bottled water to Mother Teresa to be offensive. So my incredibly scientific poll finds that 100% of Native Americans don't give even the tiniest shit about the logo.

I am most offended by people that are offended.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:24 pm

CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! wrote:I wore a Chief Wahoo cap to work on Friday. Without any preamble, I asked the 2 Native Americans in my company if they were offended by it. Both looked at me blankly. Even after explaining to them why they should find it racist, they both laughed it off. And my company is in Brooklyn, where we're privileged to have people that find anything from bottled water to Mother Teresa to be offensive. So my incredibly scientific poll finds that 100% of Native Americans don't give even the tiniest shit about the logo.

I am most offended by people that are offended.


Well, it's settled then. Shit, you should have worn your hat to work a long time ago. Could have saved everyone a lot time.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:25 pm

7foot3 wrote:No American Indians should have to speak in objection to the logo for it to change, because the logo is offensive and inappropriate. Period.


Yup
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:27 pm

And just for to be thorough, I'm sure you've all seen this by now.:

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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:16 pm

I offend myself whenever I wear Indians gear. But its because I'm an Indians fan, not because of Chief Wahoo.

I'm with Peeker on this. I want Chief Wahoo to die just so this pain in the ass story can go away. Its even more annoying than ridiculous feuds between current Browns and Cavs.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:22 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
7foot3 wrote:No American Indians should have to speak in objection to the logo for it to change, because the logo is offensive and inappropriate. Period.


Yup


Yup?

It's your place to decide what's offensive inappropriate? Or, rather it's 7foot3's place while you do the big black dude in Trading Places routine? Did you guys beat Spin out in some election?

What if he truly doesn't see it as offensive or inappropriate? I'm not sure how it works or if it's really a good idea that you guys are now the moral lighthouse we can all look to in these troubling times. Seems to me history is filled with stories of bumpy rides when one person or group sets the standards for these kind of things.

I have to ask a couple questions though:

You guys still watch the games, go to the games, listen to the games? Do you support the Indians with ticket purchases or buying any apparel or by purchasing from any of their advertisers? Do you take your kids to the games or your wives to the games? How does that work? How do justify supporting in any way an organization that is so clearly and blatantly racist in your eyes? Is it like a cafeteria plan where you can still get what ya want and just not have anything to do with the peas and the brown stuff that looks kinda like gravy/pudding?

I mean, if you're attending a game or buying any merchandise, eating a hotdog or drinking a beer at the Jake, aren't you complicit in supporting and rooting for an organization that's racist and insensitive?

And I also wonder if you guys ride on Firestone tires, ever fill your tanks with Shell gasoline or have iPhones, iPads, MacBooks, and Nike and Hanes clothing or eat Nestles or Hersheys products?

And like I said, I'm fine with it gone. I cringed when I saw the picture moscratch posted. Because the DB in the picture doesn't represent me any more than the NA in the picture represents you.

But I don't care if it goes or stays. That may make me insensitive. But it doesn't make me a hypocrite. I guess that's how I justify it.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:37 pm

peeker643 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
7foot3 wrote:No American Indians should have to speak in objection to the logo for it to change, because the logo is offensive and inappropriate. Period.


Yup


Yup?

It's your place to decide what's offensive inappropriate? Or, rather it's 7foot3's place while you do the big black dude in Trading Places routine? Did you guys beat Spin out in some election?

What if he truly doesn't see it as offensive or inappropriate? I'm not sure how it works or if it's really a good idea that you guys are now the moral lighthouse we can all look to in these troubling times. Seems to me history is filled with stories of bumpy rides when one person or group sets the standards for these kind of things.

I have to ask a couple questions though:

You guys still watch the games, go to the games, listen to the games? Do you support the Indians with ticket purchases or buying any apparel or by purchasing from any of their advertisers? Do you take your kids to the games or your wives to the games? How does that work? How do justify supporting in any way an organization that is so clearly and blatantly racist in your eyes? Is it like a cafeteria plan where you can still get what ya want and just not have anything to do with the peas and the brown stuff that looks kinda like gravy/pudding?

I mean, if you're attending a game or buying any merchandise, eating a hotdog or drinking a beer at the Jake, aren't you complicit in supporting and rooting for an organization that's racist and insensitive?

And I also wonder if you guys ride on Firestone tires, ever fill your tanks with Shell gasoline or have iPhones, iPads, MacBooks, and Nike and Hanes clothing or eat Nestles or Hersheys products?

And like I said, I'm fine with it gone. I cringed when I saw the picture moscratch posted. Because the DB in the picture doesn't represent me any more than the NA in the picture represents you.

But I don't care if it goes or stays. That may make me insensitive. But it doesn't make me a hypocrite. I guess that's how I justify it.


::doh:: Christ Peek, Didn't I tell you that the phone in my limousine is busted, and I can't get in contact with my bitches? I'd have responded with a long explanation, except I know one of the reasons you hate this thread is that everyone just repeats themselves, and I was just agreeing with 7foot3 because it's pretty much the same thing I already posted.

Concisely, Chief Wahoo is a racist caricature. I don't need a poll; there is no magical percentage of offended people before it becomes real, and Spin's research/CavsTribe's work experiment/FUDU's encyclopedic knowledge of the history of the Sambo story is irrelevent. I find it strange that anyone can look at that and think it's OK in 2014. If you want to strip that down and imply that I've decided to take it upon myself as the ultimate decider and arbiter of morality, well, OK. But I don't believe you really think that's what I'm saying here.

That's not the same as saying that people who disagree with me are racists. I just think they are mistaken.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with your question about me supporting my favorite baseball team. Am I really supposed to refuse to watch or follow my team because they have so far refused to eliminate an offensive cartoon as the mascot? If I don't draw that line in the sand then I'm a hypocrite or something? The same way that anyone who eats a sandwich from Chick Filet must be a homophobe?

They're my team. I hope they make this change. I don't buy any gear with the Chief on it and my family knows not to get me any. I'm not sure what the tires, phones, and chocolate have to do with anything, but I imagine you can't wait to tell me.

So, why did you cringe when you saw the dude in the picture? Unless, of course, there's something wrong about it. (Which there may or may not be. Seems we are waiting for the poll results or something.)

But I gotta tell ya, Peek, You're like Michael Corleone. You try to get out an I keep pulling you back in. It's like I told you a week ago...we are THIS close to figuring the whole thing out. We're right there, dude. I figure about 12-15 more posts ought to take care of it. You know, unless FUDU comes back and fucks the whole thing up again.

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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:40 pm

Well I know what I'm buying mo for Xmas...

I respect everyone's opinion on the matter, I respect the debate in general, but I have to admit what I don't really give much respect to is the arrogance that comes with the argument that "it's just racist, b/c it is". Honestly, if a group of NAs feel it isn't (whether that group be 3 people, 20 people, or a whole freaking tribe) who is a suburban white guy to tell them that it not only is "b/c it is", but they should feel completely insulted and demeaned by it.

Frankly I think anyone who looks at Chief Wahoo and thinks that it represents NAs is a total retard, but that's just me, I'm insensitive in general.

:ChiefWahooSmile
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Sea Foam Green » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:21 am

FUDU wrote:Frankly I think anyone who looks at Chief Wahoo and thinks that it represents NAs is a total retard, but that's just me, I'm insensitive in general.


Wahoo is a caricature. Caricature's are offensive, that's kind of their whole point. Offensive doesn't necessarily mean racist. To FUDU's point above, I doubt anyone, anywhere either consciously or subconsciously, thinks less of Native Americans because of that stupid fucking cartoon. One man's opinion here, but things like the Tomahawk chop and everything at an Indian Casino [not the gambling, but the atmosphere, decor, etc] are far more demeaning and lead to improper perceptions about the ethnicity, than something everybody knows is fake.

That said, I do think they should change the name and logo. Mostly because Wahoo is not an Indian, he is a Native American. There are a billion Indians in the world which are not caricatured by Wahoo. The name is inaccurate and outdated.

I may be the only person bothered by this.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:20 am

Mo- if Wahoo is a racist caricature then the Indians are a racist and insensitive organization. And if being racist and insensitive is wrong, then supporting a racist organization through financial means, whether it be tickets, hot dogs, apparel, etc., is condoning, if not flat-out supporting racism.

You feel free to justify that any way you need to.

I don't eat at Chick Fil-A and I won't. Not for a couple years now. Do I think anyone who eats there is a homophobe? No. But I do think anyone that publicly/vocally supports LGBT causes who eats there is a hypocrite.

You can extrapolate from there.

ETA- Hey, if you have no idea why I asked about those other products/companies, no big deal. Just figured you'd have issues with those companies too if the old moral compass was dialed in.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:36 am

BTW are you guys using the Mozilla Firefox browser while posting in this thread...

;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:03 am

And again, to 7foot3 and to Mo, I'm not typing this stuff with malice or anger or condescension. I consider both of you to be bright and articulate when you post. I just don't quite understand the position you're taking.

It just seems to me that you guys are basing your assertions of 'negligence' on a generalization when it probably requires a more fact-sensitive approach . Which is why I was asking earlier in the thread about any studies or information that provide data on what NA's think. I'd love to see the data if it's out there.

You don't have it or it's not available so you fall back on the generalization and argue "any right minded person sees its racist and insensitive".

I don't think the generalization is accurate (and any number of people in this very thread don't share your thoughts on it).

But if your generalization is accurate and you are right, then are not the Indians are racist and insensitive? Yet you support them. With money and allegiance, I would think. So I wonder how you rationalize that.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:57 am

Which is why I said the extension of their logic (with what comes across as a bit of arrogance, intentional or unintentional) is in their mind, people that wear CW apparel are in fact racist (or intentionally insensitive), b/c how else could somebody go into their closet and grab that hat/shirt and put it on, if it is in fact so inherently and blatantly racist.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:42 pm

peeker643 wrote:And again, to 7foot3 and to Mo, I'm not typing this stuff with malice or anger or condescension. I consider both of you to be bright and articulate when you post. I just don't quite understand the position you're taking.

It just seems to me that you guys are basing your assertions of 'negligence' on a generalization when it probably requires a more fact-sensitive approach . Which is why I was asking earlier in the thread about any studies or information that provide data on what NA's think. I'd love to see the data if it's out there.

You don't have it or it's not available so you fall back on the generalization and argue "any right minded person sees its racist and insensitive".

I don't think the generalization is accurate (and any number of people in this very thread don't share your thoughts on it).

But if your generalization is accurate and you are right, then are not the Indians are racist and insensitive? Yet you support them. With money and allegiance, I would think. So I wonder how you rationalize that.


I'm not angry either. Not in the least. Any of my posts or parts of my posts that come off like that are just failed attempts at being funny (especially my ridiculous jabs at FUDU. FUDU knows I like him. I just like to bust his balls). Even before this post I was worried that I was coming off as really invested in this topic. I'm not. But when you are on an internet message board talking about this kind of stuff and you are presenting an opinion it's hard not to sound fanatical.

That being said...

I think it's a little ridiculous to make following the Tribe and hating Chief Wahoo such a black and white issue that anyone who is in the camp for change is a hypocrite for not giving them up completely. I don't think the "organization" is racist. And I don't think that the people who run the organization are racist. Nobody involved with the Indians was around when the team was named of the Chief was born. They love baseball and ended up with this organization and now are dealing with this issue the best way that they can.

I argue that any "right minded person" (did I say that?) would think that Wahoo is offensive because I don't think it's a matter of opinion any more than I think it's a matter of opinion whether or not Chris Brown is an asshole. Some things have moved beyond the "everyone has a valid opinion, YAY!" realm. It's similar to what we see with the anti-vaxers who have been in the news lately.

They think wrongly that kids shouldn't be vaccinated and think that simply because they HAVE an opinion that it should be given equal weight. Those people are wrong and they are lunatics...like FUDU.

Where I'm failing most of all is being articulate enough to eloquently represent my opinion in such a way that it makes sense and doesn't drive FUDU to call me arrogant again. In that I have been and will continue to be an epic failure. I have thoughts that bounce around in my head but they rarely make it onto the screen any any form of coherent argument that makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:45 pm

FUDU wrote:Which is why I said the extension of their logic (with what comes across as a bit of arrogance, intentional or unintentional) is in their mind, people that wear CW apparel are in fact racist (or intentionally insensitive), b/c how else could somebody go into their closet and grab that hat/shirt and put it on, if it is in fact so inherently and blatantly racist.


In short...I guess I don't think this is a matter of opinion any more.

I'll ask you what I asked Peeker before. Would you feel funny about putting on redface Wahoo makeup and then having a discussion with the Indian guy in the picture there?
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:49 pm

Calcaterra put they way I'm looking at it better than I ever did:

That’s the thing about Wahoo that those who defend him don’t usually get: no one is saying people who wear it are inherently and necessarily racist. It’s that they’re insensitive and oblivious to the fact that the caricature itself is a clearly racist symbol.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:17 pm

OK. I hear ya. But let me ask a question that I really wonder about.

I believe the Indians have some very bright people in their front offic. From scouting to the business side and right up through the executive ranks.

I think most people would agree.

Why don't those extremely bright people change it?

And I'm in no way saying that them not changing it is indicative that it's not offensive to some people. It is. I get that.

I'm asking honestly. If it's truly offensive to a large enough percentage of people then how can all those bright folks be oblivious to that fact and let it remain?
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Sea Foam Green » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:56 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
I'll ask you what I asked Peeker before. Would you feel funny about putting on redface Wahoo makeup and then having a discussion with the Indian guy in the picture there?


That picture with the dude in Red Face is such BS. I hate to point out the obvious, but we're talking about the disposition of a guy in full face paint. You ever looked at a grown ass man in costume with full face paint and thought, "Now there's a guy that's got his shit together. He seems like a reasonable and balanced person."?

That whole thing was clearly a set up, they were waiting for an asshole to come along, and when one did, they jumped on it. And even by the 'behind the scenes' account of the guy who set it up, the a-hole in face paint was respectful to the Native American and explained his motive wasn't to demean.

Made for a hell of a photo-op though.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Sea Foam Green » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:16 pm

motherscratcher wrote: the caricature itself is a clearly racist symbol.


Or they could, you know, just disagree with that statement.

The difference between the Wahoo discussion and the anti-vax people is that the vaccinations are scientifically backed and the claims they cause other issues have been disproven. There is no such standard for what constitutes racism. To me, this compares more along the lines of how we define obscenity. Neither have any hard and fast rules, they're just kind of 'I know it when I see it', and that threshold is different for everyone.

The way I see it, Wahoo as a racist symbol is clearly in the grey area that depends on where an individual draws that line. And any references to it being definitely racist are either debate tactics or an attempt to demean the intelligence of the dissenters. The latter of which, in my opinion, is a large part of what this whole issue is about.

Again, in my opinion, the debate should focus on, as 7foot3 mentions above 'if one person is offended, it should be changed' [debatable] and what are the ramifications if it IS changed [Hard to debate], as that's where the opposition stance falls apart.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby pup » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:17 pm

peeker643 wrote:OK. I hear ya. But let me ask a question that I really wonder about.

I believe the Indians have some very bright people in their front offic. From scouting to the business side and right up through the executive ranks.

I think most people would agree.

Why don't those extremely bright people change it?

And I'm in no way saying that them not changing it is indicative that it's not offensive to some people. It is. I get that.

I'm asking honestly. If it's truly offensive to a large enough percentage of people then how can all those bright folks be oblivious to that fact and let it remain?


I think they are. Slowly because they realize their fan base is not 100% on board with it. At the end of the day, having it is not hurting them in the wallet and taking it away could. So they are trying to do it as part of a process.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:26 pm

pup wrote:
peeker643 wrote:OK. I hear ya. But let me ask a question that I really wonder about.

I believe the Indians have some very bright people in their front offic. From scouting to the business side and right up through the executive ranks.

I think most people would agree.

Why don't those extremely bright people change it?

And I'm in no way saying that them not changing it is indicative that it's not offensive to some people. It is. I get that.

I'm asking honestly. If it's truly offensive to a large enough percentage of people then how can all those bright folks be oblivious to that fact and let it remain?


I think they are. Slowly because they realize their fan base is not 100% on board with it. At the end of the day, having it is not hurting them in the wallet and taking it away could. So they are trying to do it as part of a process.


And I agree with you on that. I think they are too. I think it's being pushed further and further toward retirement.

But still, I really don't understand why they'd do it in that way if, as some argue, it's clearly and unambiguously racist.

If it were clearly and unambiguously racist, by definition, we'd all (as reasonably intelligent people, even given the forum board reputation ;-) agree it should be done away with immediately. Not over time.

It's a logo. And I say that dismissively toward those who are screaming for its immediate removal as well as those screaming for people to leave their Chief alone.

Bunch of nut bags on both sides of the aisle (as usual) ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:34 pm

pup wrote:
peeker643 wrote:OK. I hear ya. But let me ask a question that I really wonder about.

I believe the Indians have some very bright people in their front offic. From scouting to the business side and right up through the executive ranks.

I think most people would agree.

Why don't those extremely bright people change it?

And I'm in no way saying that them not changing it is indicative that it's not offensive to some people. It is. I get that.

I'm asking honestly. If it's truly offensive to a large enough percentage of people then how can all those bright folks be oblivious to that fact and let it remain?


I think they are. Slowly because they realize their fan base is not 100% on board with it. At the end of the day, having it is not hurting them in the wallet and taking it away could. So they are trying to do it as part of a process.


As soon as they get a clear idea financially, they'll take action. Let's not fool ourselves into believing ANYTHING in this thread is above that. If they KNEW that dollars would be unaffected, or increased by the Chief being gone, he'da been gone, hillbilly protesters be damned. If they feel they take too much of a financial hit, then it's too bad Native Americans.

The arguments beyond money in sports - college or pro - those are for us 9 to fivers. To think that the 6 and 7 figure guys in these front offices are entertaining the feelings of joe fan or native Americans to 2% of the profit study...

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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Spin » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:33 pm

Purdue Pete is offensive to boilermakers like my dad. Those big dilated eyes, fat chin. It looks nothing like a dago oops I mean Italian American factory worker.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:47 pm

leadpipe wrote:
pup wrote:
peeker643 wrote:OK. I hear ya. But let me ask a question that I really wonder about.

I believe the Indians have some very bright people in their front offic. From scouting to the business side and right up through the executive ranks.

I think most people would agree.

Why don't those extremely bright people change it?

And I'm in no way saying that them not changing it is indicative that it's not offensive to some people. It is. I get that.

I'm asking honestly. If it's truly offensive to a large enough percentage of people then how can all those bright folks be oblivious to that fact and let it remain?


I think they are. Slowly because they realize their fan base is not 100% on board with it. At the end of the day, having it is not hurting them in the wallet and taking it away could. So they are trying to do it as part of a process.


As soon as they get a clear idea financially, they'll take action. Let's not fool ourselves into believing ANYTHING in this thread is above that. If they KNEW that dollars would be unaffected, or increased by the Chief being gone, he'da been gone, hillbilly protesters be damned. If they feel they take too much of a financial hit, then it's too bad Native Americans.

The arguments beyond money in sports - college or pro - those are for us 9 to fivers. To think that the 6 and 7 figure guys in these front offices are entertaining the feelings of joe fan or native Americans to 2% of the profit study...

Alsmost had a great finish to the NCAA year - a half-assed rape investigation to the NC game star QB, bookended with a group of guys that took 5 months of online classes - never to be in a classroom now, or ever again, cutting down the nets. A classic.


Yup yup yup yup yup. I agree completely. These guys have to think about the bottom line first. I don't even fault them for that. Like I said before, these guys inherited this problem and I don't blame them for taking care of it the least painful way possible. I've been on the anti Chief bandwagon for quite some time, but it seems like in the last few years (this year especially) the noise around it has gotten MUCH louder.

I definitely agree with Peeker that they are quietly phasing it out anyway. I wonder if all of the heightened attention is going to force their hand a little bit.

I think even Wahoo supporters pretty much see the writing on the wall as far as the inevitability...I kind of wish that the organization would step out in front of it and announce that they are retiring Chief instead of the quiet fade away they are doing now. I think it would reflect nicely on the organization. There would certainly be a bit of a PC uproar about it but that would eventually fade away. They'd get a lot of good press about it. AND, it would make Dan Snyder look like even more of an asshole.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:54 pm

peeker643 wrote:
If it were clearly and unambiguously racist, by definition, we'd all (as reasonably intelligent people, even given the forum board reputation ;-) agree it should be done away with immediately. Not over time.

It's a logo. And I say that dismissively toward those who are screaming for its immediate removal as well as those screaming for people to leave their Chief alone.

Bunch of nut bags on both sides of the aisle (as usual) ;-) ;) :wink:


To be fair, if there weren't people screaming for its immediate removal then it would never be removed.

One thing about my position to clear up...I've been clear that I don't think the hied being racist is a matter of opinion. I understand that most people don't agree with me on that. I don't think those people are dumb. I just think they are mistaken. I can acknowledge that maybe it's me. So it goes.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:09 pm

Scott Raab has Chief Wahoo tattooed on his arm. He wrote this in 2007.

Yet now it is October, with the Tribe on the brink -- one more win -- of the World Series, and Chief Wahoo is a big deal again. He is an insult. A degrading, racist caricature. An affront, an indignity, a mockery, a disgrace, a shondeh un a charpa for every Cleveland Indians fan who wishes to think of himself as compassionate and caring.

I get it. Believe me, I get it. Intellectually and emotionally. My arm is my problem. Chief Wahoo as the face of the team known as the Cleveland Indians needs to find a burial ground somewhere near Lake Erie -- the sooner, the better.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:38 pm

Some good posts today, even mo's, especially mine.

But in all seriousness, I think Seafoam makes a strong point about the what is/isn't racist and where that line is for some people. It definitely isn't a scientific fact, and again that is what bothers me most on this issue (and frankly most race issues). The tactic used against dissenters. Not that anyone here was intentionally using that tactic.

I think it would be very interesting to see where the NA truly stands on this issue, to a man, and obviously that won't happen. IMO more NAs probably don't give a shit at all than most think, BUT my guess is most probably would prefer the Chief get put to rest. If an extreme majority actually said it doesn't bother them I think we still have an issue in how to represent or at least consider the minority, as that is a big part of what this country is about.

I certainly wouldn't attempt to tell NAs they're making too big a deal about it or what to make a big deal about, but I sincerely hope NAs don't let things like CW or the Redskins define them or feel it defines them, to any degree.

BUT IT'S STILL JUST A FREAKIN SPORTS LOGO, GET OVER IT!

:cheers:

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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby 1Perry » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:36 am

motherscratcher wrote:
FUDU wrote:Which is why I said the extension of their logic (with what comes across as a bit of arrogance, intentional or unintentional) is in their mind, people that wear CW apparel are in fact racist (or intentionally insensitive), b/c how else could somebody go into their closet and grab that hat/shirt and put it on, if it is in fact so inherently and blatantly racist.


In short...I guess I don't think this is a matter of opinion any more.

I'll ask you what I asked Peeker before. Would you feel funny about putting on redface Wahoo makeup and then having a discussion with the Indian guy in the picture there?


My kids are N/A. I'm not sure how this is all figured but their mother is 25%. Her grandmother is full blooded. I've bought my kids plenty of hats, shirts etc with Chief Wahoo on it and they still buy them.

They think it's all silly.
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