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Chief Wahoo

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Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:53 am

I think it's high time we stop pussy-footing around this issue and finally have a thread that discusses Chief Wahoo. :hide:

There are two sides to the issue. On one side are those who think the Chief is a racist caricature and is overdue to be retired. On the other side are those who are wrong. :dingle:

The Plain Dealer just came out on the "retire the Chief" side.

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/02/the_tribe_should_retire_chief.html#incart_m-rpt-2

How much longer does the Chief have? We all know it's inevitable, and as soon as the Redskins finally change their name, attention will immediately swing to our shores like the eye of Sauron.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:04 am

motherscratcher wrote:I think it's high time we stop pussy-footing around this issue and finally have a thread that discusses Chief Wahoo. :hide:

There are two sides to the issue. On one side are those who think the Chief is a racist caricature and is overdue to be retired. On the other side are those who are wrong. :dingle:

The Plain Dealer just came out on the "retire the Chief" side.

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/02/the_tribe_should_retire_chief.html#incart_m-rpt-2

How much longer does the Chief have? We all know it's inevitable, and as soon as the Redskins finally change their name, attention will immediately swing to our shores like the eye of Sauron.


Well, if the Plain Dealer endorses the change then it's probably about time right. That really means it should have been done 20 years ago.

Plus you don't fuck with the juggernaut that is the print media. That's a steamroller that just keeps picking up speed and readers.

;-) ;) :wink:

Honestly, I don't care what they do with the GD cartoon.

But...BUT.... has anyone on either side of this new argument EVER CONSIDERED THE FIGHTING IRISH guy MIGHT BE INSENSITIVE!!!!

I bet no one did. That's a game-changing thought right there, isn't it?

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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:01 am

I just figured it was time we had this discussion at TCF.

Besides, all 873 other threads on this topic are lost in the ether, apparently.

I did accidentally listen to 92.3 yesterday for about 2 minutes and a guy called in and said that they shouldn't get rid of Chief Wahoo. His reason was this: if the Redskins were named the Whiteskins he wouldn't be offended. He has a point. To take this to it's logical conclusion, if I was a snake I would still think Tawney Kitain was hot in the 80's.

Tawny Kitain is hot so the Chief stays!
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:02 am

Actually more than anything I just want to get things moving around here and this seemed as likely as anything to get a little action. :thumb up:
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:21 am

Edit: Took MS's bait because I'm a fool.
Last edited by skatingtripods on Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:23 am

Ha!

I knew I'd get Tripods! :group:
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:25 am

motherscratcher wrote:Ha!

I knew I'd get Tripods! :group:


The goal was discussion, right? Now everybody can discuss how much of an asshole I am.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:26 am

I will say, tripods, to answer your post, that not doing something because it is easy and theoretically wouldn't improve the plight of the American Indian is a bad reason not to do it, when even you admit it is a racist caticature.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:27 am

skatingtripods wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Ha!

I knew I'd get Tripods! :group:


The goal was discussion, right? Now everybody can discuss how much of an asshole I am.


Well that goes without saying downtown it. For both of us. :cheers:
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:33 am

motherscratcher wrote:I will say, tripods, to answer your post, that not doing something because it is easy and theoretically wouldn't improve the plight of the American Indian is a bad reason not to do it, when even you admit it is a racist caticature.


By saying it was racist, I meant it in a general sense. To me, it's the logo of my favorite baseball team and nothing more.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:46 am

I have a Twitter account, @TribeFBComments to tweet out the stupid shit that fans say on the Indians and STO Facebook pages. In looking at the comments today, I found this one:

My heritage is Delaware Indian and I miss Chief Wahoo. Keep him and modify his look to little smaller nose and less bold teeth. Keep him please. That is Cleveland baseball heritage too.


I have no way of knowing if this woman is actually part Delaware Indian, but a modification of Chief Wahoo to make him appear less over-the-top(?) is something that I have never seen discussed.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:48 am

Also, I scrolled to the bottom of the boards for some reason and it says that it's e0y2e3's birthday. Anybody know if he's still breathing?
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:43 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I just figured it was time we had this discussion at TCF.

Besides, all 873 other threads on this topic are lost in the ether, apparently.

I did accidentally listen to 92.3 yesterday for about 2 minutes and a guy called in and said that they shouldn't get rid of Chief Wahoo. His reason was this: if the Redskins were named the Whiteskins he wouldn't be offended. He has a point. To take this to it's logical conclusion, if I was a snake I would still think Tawney Kitain was hot in the 80's.

Tawny Kitain is hot so the Chief stays!


Last time I call into that show.

Keep the ball rolling I say, Chief Noc-a-homa in Atlanta had Princess Win-a-lotta in tow, why not give something for the Chief to really smile about?
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:46 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Tawny Kitain is hot so the Chief stays!


This is as well reasoned an argument as anyone who says "if they were the Cleveland White Boys" I wouldn't be offended.

So I agree, the Chief stays. And it is racist.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby bookelly » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:38 pm

Whatever. The team has been phasing the Chief out of the uniform every year one uni at a time. In 10 years he's gone. And nobody will notice because it'll happen very slowly. Kinda like your standard of living.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Spin » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:30 pm

How many native Americans really give a fuck? I haven't seen any.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Spin » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:32 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Also, I scrolled to the bottom of the boards for some reason and it says that it's e0y2e3's birthday. Anybody know if he's still breathing?


I heard The Bostonian call in to a radio show week before last.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:06 pm

bookelly wrote:Kinda like your standard of living.



Hey Hey Hey..... take that kinda Political anti american mumbo jumbo to the proper computer machine bloggity blog. Dis here is a baseball thread son.


Anyways aint nothing racist about the Chief. Indians are red, they got big teeth and wear all sorts of feathers on der heads. It would be like if one of dem der Tigers called up the Bengals and complained about the mascot being Orange. Dont make no damn sense. Anyways the real issue here is them Cinncy Reds. Why on earth are two teams in the same state named after Indians. Dont make no damn sense.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:16 pm

GV Artwork taking a strong stance:

Image

My apologies for the enormous picture. Can't find a smaller one. Anyway, here's what they said on Facebook:

Keep the Chief! There's a lot of controversy about the Indians logo so we wanted to make our statement to keep Chief Wahoo. This logo that has been around since the 40's is a part of Cleveland history. Now available online.


BTW, that shirt is absolutely sick.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby 7foot3 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:44 pm

skatingtripods wrote:GV Artwork taking a strong stance:



AKA, we know that white people generally don't care about insensitivity toward other races, so give us your money please!
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby 7foot3 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:45 pm

Spin wrote:How many native Americans really give a fuck? I haven't seen any.


Well that's settled then. The dude from the burbs of Akron doesn't know any native Americans complaining, so there couldn't possibly be a problem here. Move along people.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Spin » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:17 pm

7foot3 wrote:
Spin wrote:How many native Americans really give a fuck? I haven't seen any.


Well that's settled then. The dude from the burbs of Akron doesn't know any native Americans complaining, so there couldn't possibly be a problem here. Move along people.


The only people I have seen who complained about it are journalists on failing newspapers and white people who cant find anything else to bitch about.

When I see groups of native Americans who are genuinely offended by it, ill consider it a problem.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:38 pm

Spin wrote:
7foot3 wrote:
Spin wrote:How many native Americans really give a fuck? I haven't seen any.


Well that's settled then. The dude from the burbs of Akron doesn't know any native Americans complaining, so there couldn't possibly be a problem here. Move along people.


The only people I have seen who complained about it are journalists on failing newspapers and white people who cant find anything else to bitch about.

When I see groups of native Americans who are genuinely offended by it, ill consider it a problem.


This is a great point.

You know, I can't recall the last time I ran into a group of Indians who where pissed the government took their land away. And dammit, cause I haven't personally run into them lately, I'm just going to assume they are A-OK with it.

Goes the same for alcoholic and bead trading jokes as well.

Christ on a pony of dumbassedness.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Spin » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:35 am

Has anyone seen any native Americans on tv or in the paper or picketing for the Indians to lose the logo over the last, oh, 20 years?

The rest of your bombastic hyperbole is well documented in history.

But if this is where we're going, I'm going to picket San Diego State for using the name of a conquered people. I mean shit, that happened what, well before our time, or our great great grandparents time, but there might be someone somewhere in Spain who feels guilty for their decendants fucking over those poor Aztecs.

Bottom line the PD got what it wanted. Hits on the website. Next year, they'll do it again. That's how newspapers work now. Newspapers lived and died on subscriptions. Now like every other news website, they live and die on hits. Next year, they'll do the same thing. And people will click on it to get passed off. and theyll tell someone else and the site gets more hits. Itll go viral for the 25th straight year.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:00 am

Spin wrote:Has anyone seen any native Americans on tv or in the paper or picketing for the Indians to lose the logo over the last, oh, 20 years?


Yes
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby pup » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:56 pm

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/native_americans_to_mark_cleve.html

Native Americans to mark Cleveland Indians 1st games with annual protest of Chief Wahoo logo
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:15 pm

pup wrote:http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/native_americans_to_mark_cleve.html

Native Americans to mark Cleveland Indians 1st games with annual protest of Chief Wahoo logo


Anyone? Anyone? Can anyone just show me one example of Native Americans who have a problem with the Chief. Just a single example is all I'm asking.

No?

Then I declare....NOT RACIST!

Done and done. I now consider the matter settled.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby gotribe31 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:21 pm

I hate the creator of this thread.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:29 pm

Honest question because, well, I'm wondering.

If the Indians logo was

Image

or this:


Image


Would there be an issue? Is it the ignoble caricature alone or do people want to take next step and eliminate the name as well??
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:32 pm

gotribe31 wrote:I hate the creator of this thread.


Image
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby 7foot3 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:59 pm

peeker643 wrote:Honest question because, well, I'm wondering.

If the Indians logo was



or this:



Would there be an issue? Is it the ignoble caricature alone or do people want to take next step and eliminate the name as well??



How about the team actually work with American Indian groups to determine the best way to use the name, if there is one? Not just eliminate any negative portrayals, but actually come up with positive ones? A bunch of old white dudes sitting around a table going "could this offend someone else?" seems like the most ass-backward way to go about finding a solution, and not just because old white dudes seem to be really bad at figuring out what offends other groups.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Spin » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:02 pm

7foot3 wrote:A bunch of old white dudes sitting around a table going "could this offend someone else?" seems like the most ass-backward way to go about finding a solution, and not just because old white dudes seem to be really bad at figuring out what offends other groups.


THANK YOU.

As far as the name anybody who half pays attention knows the name honors Louis Sockalexis and native Americans are proud to be honored.

As far as team names go, I'm offended by the current NFL franchise being called the Browns. The name is suppose to honor Paul Brown, well this fuckin franchise makes a mockery of anything PB has ever built. It's a travesty to his name.

The cartoon character mascot, that's another thing.

What if old white guy are offended by these?

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Never mind. Racism against whites does not exist...
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:22 pm

Christ Spin, the Sockalexis bullshit was debunked years ago. ::doh::
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Spin » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:33 pm

Well, let's change that too then.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:43 pm

Btw, I'm impressed with how much effort you put into your post to support your ridiculous argument.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby 7foot3 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:06 pm

Spin wrote:As far as the name anybody who half pays attention knows the name honors Louis Sockalexis and native Americans are proud to be honored.



Just when I thought you couldn't dig your hole any deeper.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:19 pm

7foot3 wrote:
Spin wrote:As far as the name anybody who half pays attention knows the name honors Louis Sockalexis and native Americans are proud to be honored.



Just when I thought you couldn't dig your hole any deeper.


How'd you like when he somehow took your post as in agreement with his position.

Good stuff. :thumb up:
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby 7foot3 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:11 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
7foot3 wrote:
Spin wrote:As far as the name anybody who half pays attention knows the name honors Louis Sockalexis and native Americans are proud to be honored.



Just when I thought you couldn't dig your hole any deeper.


How'd you like when he somehow took your post as in agreement with his position.

Good stuff. :thumb up:


Quality, quality material. It may actually be for the best that Spin doesn't know any American Indians hanging around the burbs of Akron.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Spin » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:25 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
7foot3 wrote:
Spin wrote:As far as the name anybody who half pays attention knows the name honors Louis Sockalexis and native Americans are proud to be honored.



Just when I thought you couldn't dig your hole any deeper.


How'd you like when he somehow took your post as in agreement with his position.

Good stuff. :thumb up:


I was just going be the revisionist history of Tribe management.

I guess I'm the first one to ever be corrected here. :spanky:
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:35 pm

Spin wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
7foot3 wrote:
Spin wrote:As far as the name anybody who half pays attention knows the name honors Louis Sockalexis and native Americans are proud to be honored.



Just when I thought you couldn't dig your hole any deeper.


How'd you like when he somehow took your post as in agreement with his position.

Good stuff. :thumb up:


I was just going be the revisionist history of Tribe management.

I guess I'm the first one to ever be corrected here. :spanky:


I do really dig your new avatar. And I'm fairly certain it isn't offensive. :cheers:
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby danwismar » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:44 am

skatingtripods wrote:Also, I scrolled to the bottom of the boards for some reason and it says that it's e0y2e3's birthday. Anybody know if he's still breathing?


He is...we are in touch by email from time to time.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:35 am

While I think Chief Wahoo is the best logo in sports I'm fine with whatever happens. I understand the reason why he would be changed, but anybody who thinks the team officially removing it as the team logo/mascot being the "end" of Chief Wahoo is mistaken and rather naive. There will no doubt be a rush to get hands on Chief Wahoo apparel by many fans, maybe most...? Chief Wahoo will be in that stadium in full force, and for a long time, some fans will do it just b/c, in their minds to make a point.

One of my biggest issues with the debate, from the anti-Wahoo crowd (that uses the racial angle), is how they claim the intent of Chief Wahoo is irrelevant, that is simply absurd.

...and Pete Pattakos is not the guy the should be speaking for the anti-Wahoo crowd, he is just weak at arguing the points he brings up, even the points that are sound.

http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2014/03/08/peter-pattakos-opposes-chief-wahoo/
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:40 am

BTW what's the deal around here, half the posts aren't/weren't readable, pages not loading, threads appearing but not appearing, 15 minutes to submit a post...
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:50 am

FUDU wrote:BTW what's the deal around here, half the posts aren't/weren't readable, pages not loading, threads appearing but not appearing, 15 minutes to submit a post...


Was all orchestrated to frustrate you and hope you left.

Worked for a couple months.

The site is dead in terms of front page. Boards only. That was an ugly transition that appears to now be resolved.

We'll see.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:55 am

peeker643 wrote:
FUDU wrote:BTW what's the deal around here, half the posts aren't/weren't readable, pages not loading, threads appearing but not appearing, 15 minutes to submit a post...


Was all orchestrated to frustrate you and hope you left.

Worked for a couple months.

The site is dead in terms of front page. Boards only. That was an ugly transition that appears to now be resolved.

We'll see.


I kind of suspected that, the former. No doubt you were the brains behind that!
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby 7foot3 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:30 pm

FUDU wrote:Chief Wahoo will be in that stadium in full force, and for a long time, some fans will do it just b/c, in their minds to make a point.



If that's true, the team should have gotten rid of the logo years ago. No one's coming out to the stadium in full force.

And yeah, the intent of Wahoo today is fairly irrelevant. It's offensive. Period.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:24 pm

It's offensive to some people, it's not offensive to some other people. It's pretty much like most other things in the world.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby 7foot3 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:34 pm

FUDU wrote:It's pretty much like most other things in the world.


A hilarious and warped oversimplification. I'll try to keep an eye out for the most other things in the world that are a grossly incorrect characterization of a historically oppressed population. I'm sure they're common.
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby Spin » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:10 pm

You say "hidtorically oppressed", I say "conquered".

Right or wrong, the Euros came to America and conquered the natives, as they did on other continents. That's their history. You seem to think we owe them more for what we did 100+ years ago, I don't see a precedence for that. For example, did the Romans put Greeks who didn't want to assimilate into "reservations"? Are there still Aztec reservations in Central America?
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Re: Chief Wahoo

Unread postby pup » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:17 pm

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