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Marte optioned to Buffalo

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Marte optioned to Buffalo

Unread postby KChmura » Mon May 28, 2007 1:52 pm

Rafael Perez was promoted and Marted was optioned to Buffalo


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Unread postby Kuiper » Mon May 28, 2007 2:00 pm

It's tough to argue with this given Marte's lack of hitting. While he didn't get much of an opportunity when he came back up here after rehabbing in AAA, it was clear that we are stronger team with Blake at 3B. It keeps Garko at 1B more and Michaels and Nixon have played relatively well. Even Dellucci has shown signs of life.

The only potential question is why they brought up a reliever rather than Francisco, Choo or Gutierrez. I assume the lack of an off day and the potential for Lee or Sowers (or both) to have an early shower made this a greater need.
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Unread postby Wahoot » Mon May 28, 2007 2:17 pm

Boston and Detroit are starting RHPs in six of our next seven games. After this stretch we may see Fransisco or Gutierrez. Or even Marte again.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Mon May 28, 2007 2:46 pm

Maybe we should have seen this move coming with Marte on the bench vs a lefty last night.
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Unread postby KChmura » Mon May 28, 2007 2:46 pm

isnt there a 10 day rule where marte cant be promoted for 10 days.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Mon May 28, 2007 2:56 pm

The rule is down for at least 10 days unless there is an injury.
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Unread postby Wahoot » Mon May 28, 2007 3:59 pm

chmura sports wrote:isnt there a 10 day rule where marte cant be promoted for 10 days.


You're right. But I still expect to see either him, Fransisco, or Gutierrez up before too long.
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Marte

Unread postby ArtGold » Mon May 28, 2007 4:02 pm

He shouldn't be sent back and forth, this is the same issue I have with their handling of the minor league outfielders too.

Unlike the OFers, he has been given a chance but not performed very well, to say the least. But Matt Williams, Mike Schmidt and Dean Palmer got off to poor starts at 3rd too, but rewarded their team's patience.

Now that he has been demoted, I think that he should stay in Buffalo for a month or so and then brought up to stay for the remainder of the season.
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Unread postby KChmura » Mon May 28, 2007 4:22 pm

personally i think that we should of promoted gutierrez or a different guy other then perez. Perez is a good releiver dont get me wrong, but looking at his stats hitters are batting about .300 against him. my guess is he probably wont see any time unless its a 4 run or more lead.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Mon May 28, 2007 4:49 pm

I agree that Gutierrez or Francisco should be with the club, but what's the use if they are going to rot on the bench? I would support this if they would actually get a Garko like shot to play a corner OF position, but I don't see that happening this season.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Mon May 28, 2007 5:14 pm

Perhaps the issue with Fultz is worse then we know. Consider his last 2 appearances resulted in a pair of 4 pitch walks (including one with the bases loaded).

Don't know about the rest of you but I'd rather not have that come in to face Big Pappi. :roll :roll:
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Unread postby KChmura » Mon May 28, 2007 5:25 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:Perhaps the issue with Fultz is worse then we know. Consider his last 2 appearances resulted in a pair of 4 pitch walks (including one with the bases loaded).

Don't know about the rest of you but I'd rather not have that come in to face Big Pappi. :roll :roll:


perez shouldnt be a lefty specialist tho because his AAA era is more against lefties then it is against righties so i wouldnt want him facing big papi either
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Mon May 28, 2007 5:40 pm

If Perez is throwing strikes, its an improvement.
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Unread postby tribefan333 » Mon May 28, 2007 11:59 pm

I like this move. Garko is hitting well and Marte is struggling, so send Andy down and let Ryan get more AB's with Blake no longer an option at first (even though those days have been declining).
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue May 29, 2007 10:55 am

A few things:

1. Sending Marte down is the right choice. Now, Marte needs to stay in Buffalo all year and try and work through is issues, or stay at least through the All-Star break. Casey Blake should start at 3B for the rest of the year unless he gets hurt.

2. Hopefully they give Raffy a shot in the pen. THey are trying to find other options, so hopefully this is his chance. I've always liked Perez.

3. I believe this leaves the Indians with 13 pitchers and 12 positions players....and if so, they won't keep it this way for long. They'll option out or DFA one of the pitchers and bring someone back up.....maybe Rivas if they want an infielder, or bring back Gutierrez or Francisco if they want another outfielder. Either way though, a position player is coming back up soon.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Tue May 29, 2007 11:09 am

I don't know Tony, he already has about 900 plate appearances at the AAA level, what do we accomplish by leaving him there the remainder of the season?

I think that his career might be reaching an early end, if he only hits in the .250 range at Buffalo.

What bothers me is that as I have posted a couple of times before, other prominent 3rd basemen got off to poor hitting starts in their career and grew out of it. What makes Marte different than them?
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue May 29, 2007 11:39 am

The difference here, probably, is we are contending. We don't have the luxury of letting a guy stick at the major league and finish himself off. Plus, with how well Blake is playing at 3B, it is hard to take one of Blake/Garko out of the lineup in lieu of Marte.

Marte is very young still, and I don't think his career is any jeopardy at this point. He could use some time in Buffalo to work on some adjustments with his swing. He needs better plate coverage as he absolutely cannot hit anything on the outside third of the plate. I don't know if these problems are fixable at this point.....but right now the best option for him is Buffalo since the alternative is the bench in Cleveland. He needs to play everyday.
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Unread postby pup » Tue May 29, 2007 12:34 pm

I don't know Tony, he already has about 900 plate appearances at the AAA level, what do we accomplish by leaving him there the remainder of the season?


Haven't all 900 of those AB's come as a "young" AAA player. It takes time and Marte has always been pushed quicker than his age.

The only issue I have is I would think Shelton is the best guy in the org to work with him. All we heard was they didn't care if he hit, play a solid third base and we can live with the bat. Was that just BS because they felt they had no choice?

Even if he struggled early on with the glove, it is not like he has forgotten how to catch it.

With this move, aren't we required to play Nixon in right against LH starters?
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue May 29, 2007 12:48 pm

Pup wrote:The only issue I have is I would think Shelton is the best guy in the org to work with him. All we heard was they didn't care if he hit, play a solid third base and we can live with the bat. Was that just BS because they felt they had no choice? Even if he struggled early on with the glove, it is not like he has forgotten how to catch it.


Problem is....Marte got hurt.

Which opened the door for Blake and Garko as full-time players on the corners....and both have played very well. That's what has changed.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Tue May 29, 2007 12:49 pm

Perhaps he can still grow in AAA, but can you think of a single player who became better than major league average for his position after a third year in AAA? By major league average for a 3rd baseman, I'm only thinking about a .260-.270 hitter with 15 HR power.

Personally, I can't recall a "good" player who needed a third AAA season, but maybe I just don't have the research tools to prove or invalidate that assumption.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue May 29, 2007 12:53 pm

Well, Brian Giles was sent back to Triple-A for a 3rd straight year in 1996 before he was finally called up for good in July that year.

I'm not too worried about having Marte stick in Triple-A the rest of this season if need be. We are trying to win. In the minors, winning usually takes a backseat to development.....but that ain't the case in the majors, especially when you are contending.
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Unread postby pup » Tue May 29, 2007 1:24 pm

Aramis Ramirez
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Unread postby leadpipe » Tue May 29, 2007 2:57 pm

I'm more worried about Marte's approach then numbers. He's got some awfully big holes trying to turn over every pitch. To me he looks a long way away from helping, especially when you consider for him to REALLY help a playoff team, he needs to be able to hit good pitching. Good pitchers are going to give him trouble with that approach. Good major league pitchers locate, and change speeds. Right now he is mistake dependant. Brandon Phillips was a guy who had the tools, but got himself into trouble, especially mentally, but he never had the holes in his swing Marte had. I'm not saying it's a lost cause, he's young. But he need A LOT of work. The Tribe can't afford to worry about it this year in my opinion.
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Unread postby pup » Tue May 29, 2007 3:35 pm

Detroit went to a World Series with a .250 hitting Brandon Inge.

Chicago won a World Series with a .250 hitting Joe Crede.

I think it can be done.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue May 29, 2007 3:54 pm

Brandon Phillips had just as many holes in his swing back in 2003. Same issues with the outside pitch and trying to pull everything.

Also, I am unsure if Marte will ever produce for us, but as Pup noted it can be done seeing where Detroit's Inge and Chicago's Crede came from. Both struggled a lot from the outset, and then finally settled in. That's the positive outlook at least.
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Unread postby KChmura » Tue May 29, 2007 4:10 pm

another positive way to look at it is that marte is less than 2 years older then goedert and hodges and has already has a taste of the majors while the other two have yet to get out of single A... so my point is he is still young
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Unread postby leadpipe » Tue May 29, 2007 4:39 pm

Consigliere wrote:Brandon Phillips had just as many holes in his swing back in 2003. Same issues with the outside pitch and trying to pull everything.
Also, I am unsure if Marte will ever produce for us, but as Pup noted it can be done seeing where Detroit's Inge and Chicago's Crede came from. Both struggled a lot from the outset, and then finally settled in. That's the positive outlook at least.


This just is not true. Difference between becoming pull happy and pulling everything. Phillips waaaay more inside-out.

And to Pup and a few others point, I'm not down on the team, not saying it can't be done, just that in 2007 they have a better option.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue May 29, 2007 4:45 pm

Gotta disagree Pipes. Marte at the plate right now is practically a BP clone in 2003. Note "2003" and not "2007".
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Unread postby ArtGold » Tue May 29, 2007 5:22 pm

Forgot about Aramis Ramirez, althought he skipped AA and had only 47 games in AAA when promoted to the majors at 20. But your point is still valid.

My main point is you can't move him back and forth between Buffalo and Cleveland. Frankly, many good 3rd basement got off to bad starts, but with the current emphasis on winning if he doesn't tear up Buffalo he won't get another shot until next year. And I wouldn't be surprised if it is with another club.

I just think his value is tanking rapidly.
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Unread postby pup » Tue May 29, 2007 7:01 pm

I just think his value is tanking rapidly.


So if you don't become a major leauger by 22 you are done?

There are approaches to hitting and Marte has basically had a different approach taught to him in each of the last couple seasons. The kid can hit. If he spends the entire season at Buffalo, gets his glove back to where it was, and puts together quality AB's over the second half, he has lost zero luster.

I do no see them making the same mistake with him they did with Phillips. Players are ready at different times, wether it is physical or mental. If they can land a piece that gets them over the hump, then maybe, but they are not going to dump him because he wasn't ready at 22.
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Unread postby furls » Tue May 29, 2007 9:28 pm

So if you don't become a major leauger by 22 you are done?


I don't think that is really the point. I think the point is that there really isn't room on a team that looks ready to contend for a "developing rookie." That is a valid argument. This team is about right now, not so much about next year, but they should be ready to compete next year too.

They need to send Marte down until there is either a significant injury or until the late season call ups. Let him get his shit together and get every day play time against righties and lefties. While the Tigers and White Sox have done well of late with bad hitting third basemen that does not necessarily imply that it is a key (or preferred) way to build your team.
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Unread postby pup » Tue May 29, 2007 9:33 pm

I don't think that is really the point. I think the point is that there really isn't room on a team that looks ready to contend for a "developing rookie." That is a valid argument. This team is about right now, not so much about next year, but they should be ready to compete next year too.


Well, for an organization that feels it is ok to try to contend with Mike Rouse, Ramon Vazquez or the like....

We also have one of our minor league outfielders on the 25 IIRC, but he hasn't played, so I am not sure.

Marte could be fine, being around the big club, having Shelton right there, being a part of things. Who knows, maybe things sink in quicker up here and he could be a valuable part.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Thu May 31, 2007 10:38 am

The biggest thing that got lost in this is that the Indians just used Marte's last option.

That means he goes into 2008 out of options, or that the Indians will be forced to go with Marte on the 25-man roster out of Spring Training next year for better or worse.

Why do it now?
Why not give him some AB's against LHP (instead of Dellucci or Nixon) and see how he performs. Maybe allowing him to thrive against LHP (against whom he has far better minor-league numbers) builds his confidence at the ML level.

I understand the logic of having Rafael Perez available in case of a 2-inning outing from Lee or Sowers against Boston; but was it really necessary to have Mike Koplove in the bullpen?

If Marte is given an opportunity and still struggling in July, fine - send him down.
But this move is unusual for a team so aware of options, seeing as how it ties their hands going forward.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Thu May 31, 2007 11:22 am

Koplove had a clause that he had to be called up or would be a free agent, that's why they called him up. I wouldn't be shocked if he were dealt.

Bottom line: Marte was awful and IMO needs reps to get better. Reps at Beefalo don't cost us wins in Cleveland while reps in Cleveland might. The cost of a used option is duly noted, but it's time to win, not to count options. Hey, if he gets it together, he can come back. And ostensibly, if he gets it together, he won't need to be sent down in 2008 because he will have ... well ... gotten it together. And if he doesn't, then we'll potentially lose a guy who played poorly. It's on Marte to improve, not on the major-league club to waste a(nother) roster spot.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Thu May 31, 2007 12:33 pm

Agreed that Marte has been awful and it's on him to improve, but his omission from the roster means that either Nixon or Dellucci faces a LHP because Blake is the full-time 3B (unless you are going to throw Rouse in there).

The way that Nixon and Dellucci have thrown away AB's against LHP, it's a matter of not sticking to the platoon situation that was laid out in the off-season.

If Francisco or Frank the Tank is en route to Cleveland to take those AB's against LHP, that's fine.
It means that the organization feels that they offer a better opportunity to help the team at this moment (which is the most important thing) than Marte does.

My thing is, why not give Marte a shot against some LHP to see if he can gain some confidence. He couldn't put up worse numbers than Nixon and Dellucci have done vs. LHP to this point.

If he does, then you replace him with another RH bat.
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Unread postby consigliere » Thu May 31, 2007 11:04 pm

I'm not really worried about the option situation for Marte. It is all bout winning right now. The best thing for Marte right now is to play Buffalo and get soe consistent reps, make some adjustments, and get his confidence back.

I do think, however, that we need to go with one of Nixon/Dellucci and send the other packing. Gotta find a RHed bat somehow for the outfield, because I absolutely hate having Dellucci and/or Nixon in there against lefties.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:10 am

I do think, however, that we need to go with one of Nixon/Dellucci and send the other packing. Gotta find a RHed bat somehow for the outfield, because I absolutely hate having Dellucci and/or Nixon in there against lefties.


Agreed, though to "send the other packing" may be a little too much.

The two of them inexplicably faced Byrdak last night with the Indians rallying in the 6th. Victor SF'd in one run and those two meekly made the other 2 outs.

In the end it didn't matter, but where the hell is Michaels in that situation? At least to get a pitching change so the 2nd LH (Dellucci in this case) is facing a RHP.

As for the RH bat, I don't know where they're going to find it. Unless it's Gutz or Frisco or Marte (Blake then becomes the RH OF), there's not an obvious solution out there that represents a significant upgrade.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:20 am

A minor trade which may make some sense is Sammy Sosa. He isn't all that, but he would be a lot better out there and more dangerous than Dellucci or Nixon. Texas will be selling very soon.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:54 am

Sosa, eh?

I was ready to dismiss it out of hand for the way that he left Chicago and the perceived selfish play that littered his last few years there.

However, after realizing that the Rangers became irrelevant a month ago and that I hadn't seen what he had done in a while, I checked his 2007 stat line up. Looking at his numbers this year (and a 1.145 OPS vs. LHP), I'd take a look at him.

Getting him to agree to be a platoon player, when his 2007 play suggests that he's more than that may be the difficulty.
Not to mention the chemistry this team has going for it right now and the fact that Sosa may not be the greatest ingredient to throw into the mix.
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Unread postby Prosecutor » Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:59 pm

Sosa is hitting .195 at home and .296 on the road. For some reason the Rangers home park doesn't agree with him. He might do well in Cleveland, especially if he's just a cog and doesn't have to try and be the Man.

He doesn't handle right-handed pitching anymore; .229 average and .693 OPS. But he is killing lefties and would be a huge improvement over Michaels, who is actually hitting right-handers better than lefties at this point. A lot of teams are really trying to get as many lefties on the mound against us as possible, so a guy like Sosa could potentially make a huge difference. Michaels is hitting something like .265 against lefties with no power.

Somebody mentioned Texiera as a possible acquisition once the Rangers fire sale begins. You have to love a switch-hitting first baseman that hit .301/43/144 last year, but this year his power numbers are off. He's on pace to hit 27 HR's and 99 RBI's - not bad, but not like the monster year he had in '06. In fact, Garko is out-hitting him right now, .338 to .295, and .935 OPS to .911. I suspect this might have to do with the lack of runners on base and lack of protection behind Texiera, but I wouldn't give up any of our top prospects to replace Garko with Tex. I might be tempted to give them Garko and Sowers, though, and throw in somebody like Stanford if that's what it takes. But forget about Adam Miller.

The Sosa thing could be very doable, however. I wouldn't call it a "minor trade", either. Putting a power bat with an OPS of over 1.000 against lefties in the middle of our lineup would really make teams pay for trying to stack lefties against us to neutralize Grady and Pronk. If we could send Victor, Sosa, Garko, Peralta, Gutierrez, and Barfield to the plate in succession following Grady, Blake, and Pronk, I don't think we'd have much trouble beating lefties.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:08 pm

Do note, I ain't campaigning for Sosa....but he seems like a "doable" trade that fits. I'd obviously shoot for a much better outfielder, but the cost in prospects and dollars just lead me to believe the Indians may got for a lesser deal like Sosa (or someone else like him).

They really need a RHed bat. With Blake and Garkp playing well, it is hard to go out and demand a RH bat that plays the infield, although I guess you could still do that and just move Blake back to the outfield.

Which means, I guess, we are looking for a RH bat that plays 3B or the OF. Anyone want to throw some names around of guys you think (wish) may be available? Is Troy Glaus healthy? Would he be available?
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:31 pm

Would he be available?


Yes

Is Troy Glaus healthy?


I saw him score from second on a double the other night and it was painful to watch. I cannot imagine he makes it through the season.

Anyone want to throw some names around of guys you think (wish) may be available?


Morgan Ensberg
Pedro Feliz
Jose Bautista
Adrian Beltre

Shit. That ain't really any better than Blake. Better look to the OF. That way we can go to the wishlist....

CARLOS LEE
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
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