Text Size

Cleveland Indians & MLB

Come on all you Borowski fans - another fine outing

Talk Tribe, talk baseball in this forum.

Moderators: peeker643, swerb, pup, paulcousineau

Come on all you Borowski fans - another fine outing

Unread postby unvme2 » Mon May 14, 2007 7:42 am

by our closer. At some point you people will realize he is not the answer.
User avatar
unvme2
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:15 pm
Location: North Canton

Unread postby consigliere » Mon May 14, 2007 9:50 am

He may not be the answer, but other than the two meltdowns he has pitched well. He has been about as advertised.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby Crash Davis » Mon May 14, 2007 10:05 am

My concern is that he won't hold up. He's on pace for 85 appearances and the highest number he's had in a season was 73 back in 2002. He also had 72 last year. I know he's been as advertised but I think the problem may turnout to be that he wasn't expected to close exclusively but unfortuneatly Foulke retired.
"PREDICTION: R.I.P. Chief Wahoo"
User avatar
Crash Davis
 
Posts: 1856
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:54 pm
Favorite Player: Lawrence Vickers
Least Favorite Player: SteelerDramaQueenQB

Re: Come on all you Borowski fans - another fine outing

Unread postby tribetalk » Mon May 14, 2007 9:44 pm

unvme2 wrote:by our closer. At some point you people will realize he is not the answer.

Here I am. I am a Borowski fan and have faith in my man. He has only blown 2 saves the entire year. Let's look at some notable veterans throughout the majors.

Todd Jones: 13 of 15
Trevor Hoffman: 10 of 12
Huston Street: 9 of 11
Mariano Rivera: 3 of 5

---see every closer is human and will blow saves---
He has done very well for us; honestly; had that grounder been 1 foot closer to Barfield; we would've won that game.
User avatar
tribetalk
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:52 am
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Favorite Player: Carlos Santana
Least Favorite Player: Lou Marson

Unread postby dmcdougal » Tue May 15, 2007 1:14 pm

I think that I have been pretty consistent in my argument all along. I would trade for Brad Lidge. However, Joe Borowski is our closer for this season regardless of whether we do that trade or not. He only signed a 1 year deal everyone. He IS NOT the answer however he is the closer for this season. And besides, who would you anti-borowski morons choose instead? Cabrera? Betancourt? Ya good luck with that
dmcdougal
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue May 15, 2007 2:35 pm

Here we go again. Because we're anti-borowski, now we're morons. Well Cabrera, Betancourt or anyone else that isn't hanging 3 out of every 4 pitches would be a better option. Those two will wind up with better numbers than Borowski across the board with the exception of saves. And that will ring true even if they have ineffective seasons.
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6606
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Unread postby DarNoor » Tue May 15, 2007 2:56 pm

Wow! Just because someone has a different opinion they are called morons. Reminds me of another sports website i used to frequent. I left because of the constant name calling just because of differing opinions. Now, it is happening on here. Can't people just debate with out the name calling? Or is that too difficult?
~D~
DarNoor
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:48 am

Unread postby furls » Tue May 15, 2007 4:53 pm

That stuff really isnt tolerated around here and isnt common.
Coming from a Wolverine, we're the football equivalent of a formerly abused wife of a meth addict who just remarried the safe nice guy. We're just glad we have someone who's aware that it's a rivalry and that tackling on defense is integral. Baby steps.

-Kingpin74
User avatar
furls
Buckeye Insider
 
Posts: 6426
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Chic Harley
Least Favorite Player: Desmond Howard

Unread postby dmcdougal » Tue May 15, 2007 6:12 pm

will you relax about the name calling. It was more of a joke than a serious insult. We have discussed this in other forums. Onto the point though, who would you guys put in at closer if it is not Borowski?

seriously, what is the big deal if I call someone a moron. It's not a swear word, and it doesn't happen commonly. If people get so angry about a small insult then I won't do it, but come on maybe you should hold your moral arguments for a word that has some stronger negative connotation to it.

again, who would you put in for Borowski if he is not the answer. quit making these posts saying that a guy is bad if you don't have some sort of suggestion for fixing it. it's ridiculous
dmcdougal
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Unread postby furls » Tue May 15, 2007 6:32 pm

seriously, what is the big deal if I call someone a moron. It's not a swear word, and it doesn't happen commonly. If people get so angry about a small insult then I won't do it, but come on maybe you should hold your moral arguments for a word that has some stronger negative connotation to it.


If you have a valid point than argue your point (frankly, we share the same position). If part of your position relies on name calling and you are not on recess it is probably not part of a particularly strong position. There isn't a word in your vocabulary (or anyone else's for that matter) that would offend me.

Not trying to be a dick here, just pointing out that part of what makes these boards good is that there isnt a lot of the shananigans that go elsewhere here.
Coming from a Wolverine, we're the football equivalent of a formerly abused wife of a meth addict who just remarried the safe nice guy. We're just glad we have someone who's aware that it's a rivalry and that tackling on defense is integral. Baby steps.

-Kingpin74
User avatar
furls
Buckeye Insider
 
Posts: 6426
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Chic Harley
Least Favorite Player: Desmond Howard

Unread postby dmcdougal » Tue May 15, 2007 7:00 pm

I see what you're saying but I will not apologize because I honestly believe that anyone who thinks Joe Borowski should not be the closer of this team is a moron. I was simply calling out these "morons" and asking who they would choose to close in Borowski's place.
dmcdougal
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Unread postby He Gone » Tue May 15, 2007 8:57 pm

dmcdougal wrote:I see what you're saying but I will not apologize because I honestly believe that anyone who thinks Joe Borowski should not be the closer of this team is a moron. I was simply calling out these "morons" and asking who they would choose to close in Borowski's place.


Fernando Cabrera.
Image
He Gone
O-H-I-O
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:58 pm

Unread postby tribetalk » Tue May 15, 2007 9:43 pm

He Gone wrote:Fernando Cabrera.

Gave up two more homers tonight; and has given up, now I believe, 4 homers in his last 2 apperances.

He is certainly not our guy to be closer. Borowski is the guy!
:arrow: :arrow:
User avatar
tribetalk
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:52 am
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Favorite Player: Carlos Santana
Least Favorite Player: Lou Marson

A Moron Here

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue May 15, 2007 9:56 pm

I see what you're saying but I will not apologize because I honestly believe that anyone who thinks Joe Borowski should not be the closer of this team is a moron. I was simply calling out these "morons" and asking who they would choose to close in Borowski's place.

Being a moron, I feel it is well within my intellectual capacity to ask you if you feel JB is the man who gets us past the Tigers and Red Sox and into the ALCS or beyond. If your answer is yes, then I dub thee "eternal optimist" or "wearer of Tribe-colored glasses".

I think the polarization dealio with JB is not what he has done to date, it's what some of us fear he will do in October. Is there another, more qualified guy on the roster today who I would rather see closing? No.

Do I wish there were and hope there is by July? Yes.
User avatar
mattvan1
 
Posts: 3686
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:41 pm
Location: Houston

Unread postby He Gone » Tue May 15, 2007 10:06 pm

tribetalk wrote:
He Gone wrote:Fernando Cabrera.

Gave up two more homers tonight; and has given up, now I believe, 4 homers in his last 2 apperances.

He is certainly not our guy to be closer. Borowski is the guy!
:arrow: :arrow:


Yeah, my opinion has had some very bad timing these last few days...

I still think Taxi should be our closer eventually this year, hes just got that killer K-Rod kind of electric stuff.

If he can ever figure out the art of consistency, he would be a dominant closer.
Image
He Gone
O-H-I-O
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:58 pm

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue May 15, 2007 10:42 pm

dmcdougal wrote:I see what you're saying but I will not apologize because I honestly believe that anyone who thinks Joe Borowski should not be the closer of this team is a moron. I was simply calling out these "morons" and asking who they would choose to close in Borowski's place.


Moron number two here. Reiterating what I said a few weeks back, I don't see how anyone who watches baseball cvan look at Borowski's stuff and location and feel he's going to do a good job. I never claimed there to be a dead nuts guy to step in. I do feel whomever they would replace him with would do as good of a job. We'll see. There are no guarantees. But there ain't a guy in the league living at the belt at 87 miles an hour.
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6606
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Unread postby Dozen » Tue May 15, 2007 11:01 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:
dmcdougal wrote:I see what you're saying but I will not apologize because I honestly believe that anyone who thinks Joe Borowski should not be the closer of this team is a moron. I was simply calling out these "morons" and asking who they would choose to close in Borowski's place.


Moron number two here. Reiterating what I said a few weeks back, I don't see how anyone who watches baseball cvan look at Borowski's stuff and location and feel he's going to do a good job. I never claimed there to be a dead nuts guy to step in. I do feel whomever they would replace him with would do as good of a job. We'll see. There are no guarantees. But there ain't a guy in the league living at the belt at 87 miles an hour.


I guess I'll be moron #3 (even though I have said it before) JB is not a good closer.......point blank period.
http://www.thesportshole.com

http://www.youtube.com/TheSportsHole


I have never seen so many kok heads all lumped together like that ~ Yhimmie
User avatar
Dozen
TheSportsHole.com
 
Posts: 2343
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:08 pm
Location: Willoughby, Ohio
Favorite Player: my son
Least Favorite Player: venomous/bipolar

Re: A Moron Here

Unread postby dmcdougal » Wed May 16, 2007 12:18 am

but there won't be an elite closer available in July. Borowski is the guy for the duration of the season and with this group, I wouldn't have it any other way. All you guys who are saying Borowski is not a good closer and that he throws belt-high 87 MPH fastballs... you're not really accomplishing anything. You can't honestly tell me you would rather see some AAA kid in there over Borowski
1) there will be no trade options. It's not like Huston Street, Mariano Rivera, or Billy Wagner will be on the trading block come July.
2) Borowski is a decent closer. He had a great season with Chicago before the arm injury. Came back and was great in the set up role with TB. Had a great season with Florida last year. He is having a great season this season (Don't look at ERA or WHIP, look at SV%).
3) Decent is all we will have this season. We're not going to trade and Borowski's contract ends at the end of the season. The best POSSIBLE option would be to bring in Francisco Cordero in the free agent market. That is looking unlikely since he is doing fantastic in Milwaukee
dmcdougal
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Unread postby dmcdougal » Wed May 16, 2007 12:19 am

Just a fun fact: Bobby Wickman had a high whip and a not-so-good fastball but what did he do during his time at Cleveland?? Oh, I dunno... maybe have the highest save percentage in the majors (even ahead of Rivera). You don't need a 95% MPH fastball like Lidge, Rodriguez, Wagner, and others to be a successful closer.
dmcdougal
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Unread postby consigliere » Wed May 16, 2007 12:33 am

Just for the record, I believe Borowski is a run of the mill closer....pretty much the definition of league average if you ask me. And, I am fine with it for now until (if) we find another alternative.....but that alternative is not in-house if you ask me, and will need to come in a trade....and no significant closers will be available execpt those with warts and baggage.

So, we have to live with Borowski for now....at least until late June or in July when possibly a closer or two become available. But, like I said, even those will have their issues. We ain't gettin K-Rod....we're getting a Danys Baez type or Chad Cordero type at best.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby dmcdougal » Wed May 16, 2007 12:41 am

Amen.. you just put it nicer than I lol
dmcdougal
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Unread postby mattvan1 » Wed May 16, 2007 9:34 am

dmcdougal - At the risk of further beating this dead horse, let me again ask of you hypothetically

Do you feel comfortable that Joe Borowski is the closer for the ALCS vs. the Red Sox this October? A binary response would be appreciated.
User avatar
mattvan1
 
Posts: 3686
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:41 pm
Location: Houston

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Wed May 16, 2007 9:53 am

dmcdougal wrote:I think that I have been pretty consistent in my argument all along. I would trade for Brad Lidge. However, Joe Borowski is our closer for this season regardless of whether we do that trade or not. He only signed a 1 year deal everyone. He IS NOT the answer however he is the closer for this season. And besides, who would you anti-borowski morons choose instead? Cabrera? Betancourt? Ya good luck with that


How about the vaguely Dwight K. Shrute-esque Tom "Nasty" Mastny? He did an admirable job last year as an emergency closer.
User avatar
hermanfontenot
History Buff
 
Posts: 4117
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:52 am
Location: NE Ohio
Favorite Player: Big Z
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Unread postby consigliere » Wed May 16, 2007 10:00 am

dmcdougal wrote:However, Joe Borowski is our closer for this season regardless of whether we do that trade or not. He only signed a 1 year deal everyone. He IS NOT the answer however he is the closer for this season.


Just an FYI, but the fact Borowski is only signed to a one year deal actually makes it more likely he could be replaced mid-season and dumped if need be.

If a better closing option becomes available in a trade, he'll be replaced and move to the 8th inning (or traded or released). So, it is not written in stone he is the closer all year, although it looks like he could be though....but mostly because there are not many better options available and not because of the value or length of his contract.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby intenso » Wed May 16, 2007 10:01 am

Borowski is fourth in the majors in saves. ERAs for a guy that pitches one inning don't mean a whole lot.

Now is not the time to panic and start throwing untested middle relievers out there.
User avatar
intenso
alt.total.loser
 
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 5:12 pm

Unread postby dmcdougal » Wed May 16, 2007 11:07 am

I was pointing out the one year contract to say that Shap knows he isn't a long-term solution. Hell, Borowski is 37 years old of course he knows that. But i don't see him being dumped mid-season or traded unless he does bad. But, as intenso pointed out, he is doing quite well.

Mattvan... I would not feel comfortable with Borowski closing against the Red Sox in the ALCS. This is beside the point but I don't think the Sox will be in the ALCS. But i digress.
However, I would not feel comfortable with ANYONE closing against the Red Sox in the ALCS except maybe a few select closers. Even Rivera has blown some games in the playoffs. We're not going to get an elite closer. Anyone we get is going to blow saves. its just part of the game. I know Borowski blew a few saves and they weren't pretty but all pitchers have bad games. So let's just end this whole argument and agree that Borowski is the guy for this team for the remainder of the season
dmcdougal
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Unread postby mattvan1 » Wed May 16, 2007 11:59 am

We're not going to get an elite closer.
Probably not, but it should not stop Shapiro from seeing what's out there.
Anyone we get is going to blow saves. its just part of the game. I know Borowski blew a few saves and they weren't pretty but all pitchers have bad games.
True
So let's just end this whole argument and agree that Borowski is the guy for this team for the remainder of the season
I'll take "Completely False Statement for the Google Search Engine" for $500, Alex. Not hatin' on your boy, but why should I agree with something that makes me want to vomit? I can agree the Borowski is the closer for now, and may indeed be "the guy" (shudder) for this team for the remainder of the season, but then again, if someone (perceived) better comes along at the deadline, should Shapiro not try to land him?
User avatar
mattvan1
 
Posts: 3686
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:41 pm
Location: Houston

Unread postby dmcdougal » Wed May 16, 2007 12:12 pm

ah I was hoping to be finished with the Borowski argument lol.
If Shap finds someone else on the market that is available for trade then he should definitely take a look. There are a few conditions that I would make before trading for a closer mid-season.
1) Must be under or near 30 years old.
2) Must have more than 1 year on his contract when he comes to Cleveland
3) Must really be better than Borowski. I really think you undervalue him.


I am open to trading for a closer. However, a closer that we want is not going to be on the market so I am just writing it off and saying that Borowski, barring a total collapse, would be our closer for the entire season.
dmcdougal
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Unread postby Steve Buffum » Wed May 16, 2007 12:25 pm

It sounds like you guys are talking past each other.

Contention 1: Joe Borowski has a repertoire that makes consistent, dependable, high-quality success unlikely

Contention 2: Joe Borowski is our best option at closer

These two contentions are compatible. In fact, they have almost nothing to do with each other. Borowski is an effective closer because of his mindset, composure, and forgetfulness (able to shake off a bad outing), not because of his "stuff." More succinctly, the fact that Borowski is our best option doesn't IMPLY that Borowski is very good, and Borowski's lack of excellence doesn't IMPLY that he needs to be replaced immediately.

In the end, we're left with the tautology, "Our closer would be better if he were better. And all other things being equal, our team would be better if it consisted of better players who played better." Although I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, it's not a very interesting discussion point.
User avatar
Steve Buffum
Prose Flayer
 
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:32 am
Location: Austin TX
Favorite Player: Withheld
Least Favorite Player: David Huff

Unread postby dmcdougal » Wed May 16, 2007 12:28 pm

Steve your simply proving my point, not disagreeing with me. I am saying that Borowski doesn't have overpowering stuff but he gets the job done because of that mental toughness that you noted. He is going to get blown up sometimes but that comes with the territory. Alas, I am just going to end the argument. It seems more people think Borowski is a good closer than when I started.
dmcdougal
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Unread postby consigliere » Wed May 16, 2007 1:24 pm

dmcdougal wrote:If Shap finds someone else on the market that is available for trade then he should definitely take a look. There are a few conditions that I would make before trading for a closer mid-season.
1) Must be under or near 30 years old.
2) Must have more than 1 year on his contract when he comes to Cleveland
3) Must really be better than Borowski. I really think you undervalue him.


Points one and two are moot. The only thing that matters is #3. I could care less how old the guy is or how long he is under contract....if he is better than Borowski, and is available....I want him.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Borowski

Unread postby rawdawgexpress » Wed May 16, 2007 2:03 pm

If the Tribe should be able to nab the wild card spot after the Tiger win the division- we'll make the playoffs.

The Tribe will be in the playoffs with Borowski closing and Wedge managing. Shudder.
People call it 'vision.' I call it running away.
-Josh Cribbs
rawdawgexpress
 
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Lakewood

Unread postby Dozen » Wed May 16, 2007 2:04 pm

As much as I dislike JB as our closer Consig makes some good points. But IMO, if this team is in the thick of things around the trading deadline they are going to have to go out and get someone. I don't like to give up prospects, especially in our market because the end up being cheaper replacements. But on the other hand I dont want a guy in Buffalo having a great year when he could return someone who could help the Indians this year. At some point this team is gonna have to roll the dice and take a chance. Not just going with who we have because they will be replacing a free agent in a year or 2. Thats just the economics of our franchise.
http://www.thesportshole.com

http://www.youtube.com/TheSportsHole


I have never seen so many kok heads all lumped together like that ~ Yhimmie
User avatar
Dozen
TheSportsHole.com
 
Posts: 2343
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:08 pm
Location: Willoughby, Ohio
Favorite Player: my son
Least Favorite Player: venomous/bipolar

Unread postby consigliere » Wed May 16, 2007 2:51 pm

I'm completely on board with trading any of of our prospects except Carmona, Miller and Lofgren. I in no way trade them unless we just are absolutely floored with a deal.

But, everyone else is available. For some of the higher rated guys, I'm not just going to give them away though. The deal has to make sense. I mean, I'm not doing stupid stuff like the Mets did trading a top prospect in Kazmir for a #5 starter (Zambrano). If we are trading some of those guys, I want good layers in return and not fringy bullpen or position players.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby pup » Wed May 16, 2007 3:04 pm

If we are trading some of those guys, I want good layers in return


You been spending time in the clubhouse after games? :P :-P :razz:
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Unread postby Dozen » Wed May 16, 2007 3:15 pm

Pup wrote:
If we are trading some of those guys, I want good layers in return


You been spending time in the clubhouse after games? :P :-P :razz:


lol, yeah T....I agree with the players you mentioned.
http://www.thesportshole.com

http://www.youtube.com/TheSportsHole


I have never seen so many kok heads all lumped together like that ~ Yhimmie
User avatar
Dozen
TheSportsHole.com
 
Posts: 2343
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:08 pm
Location: Willoughby, Ohio
Favorite Player: my son
Least Favorite Player: venomous/bipolar


Return to Cleveland Indians & MLB

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests

Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests