Come on all you Borowski fans - another fine outing

[unvme2]

by our closer. At some point you people will realize he is not the answer.

[consigliere]

He may not be the answer, but other than the two meltdowns he has pitched well. He has been about as advertised.

[Crash Davis]

My concern is that he won't hold up. He's on pace for 85 appearances and the highest number he's had in a season was 73 back in 2002. He also had 72 last year. I know he's been as advertised but I think the problem may turnout to be that he wasn't expected to close exclusively but unfortuneatly Foulke retired.

[tribetalk]

by our closer. At some point you people will realize he is not the answer.

Here I am. I am a Borowski fan and have faith in my man. He has only blown 2 saves the entire year. Let's look at some notable veterans throughout the majors.

Todd Jones: 13 of 15
Trevor Hoffman: 10 of 12
Huston Street: 9 of 11
Mariano Rivera: 3 of 5

---see every closer is human and will blow saves---
He has done very well for us; honestly; had that grounder been 1 foot closer to Barfield; we would've won that game.

[dmcdougal]

I think that I have been pretty consistent in my argument all along. I would trade for Brad Lidge. However, Joe Borowski is our closer for this season regardless of whether we do that trade or not. He only signed a 1 year deal everyone. He IS NOT the answer however he is the closer for this season. And besides, who would you anti-borowski morons choose instead? Cabrera? Betancourt? Ya good luck with that

[leadpipe]

Here we go again. Because we're anti-borowski, now we're morons. Well Cabrera, Betancourt or anyone else that isn't hanging 3 out of every 4 pitches would be a better option. Those two will wind up with better numbers than Borowski across the board with the exception of saves. And that will ring true even if they have ineffective seasons.

[DarNoor]

Wow! Just because someone has a different opinion they are called morons. Reminds me of another sports website i used to frequent. I left because of the constant name calling just because of differing opinions. Now, it is happening on here. Can't people just debate with out the name calling? Or is that too difficult?

[furls]

That stuff really isnt tolerated around here and isnt common.

[dmcdougal]

will you relax about the name calling. It was more of a joke than a serious insult. We have discussed this in other forums. Onto the point though, who would you guys put in at closer if it is not Borowski?

seriously, what is the big deal if I call someone a moron. It's not a swear word, and it doesn't happen commonly. If people get so angry about a small insult then I won't do it, but come on maybe you should hold your moral arguments for a word that has some stronger negative connotation to it.

again, who would you put in for Borowski if he is not the answer. quit making these posts saying that a guy is bad if you don't have some sort of suggestion for fixing it. it's ridiculous

[furls]

seriously, what is the big deal if I call someone a moron. It's not a swear word, and it doesn't happen commonly. If people get so angry about a small insult then I won't do it, but come on maybe you should hold your moral arguments for a word that has some stronger negative connotation to it.

If you have a valid point than argue your point (frankly, we share the same position). If part of your position relies on name calling and you are not on recess it is probably not part of a particularly strong position. There isn't a word in your vocabulary (or anyone else's for that matter) that would offend me.

Not trying to be a dick here, just pointing out that part of what makes these boards good is that there isnt a lot of the shananigans that go elsewhere here.

[dmcdougal]

I see what you're saying but I will not apologize because I honestly believe that anyone who thinks Joe Borowski should not be the closer of this team is a moron. I was simply calling out these "morons" and asking who they would choose to close in Borowski's place.

[He Gone]

I see what you're saying but I will not apologize because I honestly believe that anyone who thinks Joe Borowski should not be the closer of this team is a moron. I was simply calling out these "morons" and asking who they would choose to close in Borowski's place.

Fernando Cabrera.

[tribetalk]

Fernando Cabrera.

Gave up two more homers tonight; and has given up, now I believe, 4 homers in his last 2 apperances.

He is certainly not our guy to be closer. Borowski is the guy!

[mattvan1]

I see what you're saying but I will not apologize because I honestly believe that anyone who thinks Joe Borowski should not be the closer of this team is a moron. I was simply calling out these "morons" and asking who they would choose to close in Borowski's place.

Being a moron, I feel it is well within my intellectual capacity to ask you if you feel JB is the man who gets us past the Tigers and Red Sox and into the ALCS or beyond. If your answer is yes, then I dub thee "eternal optimist" or "wearer of Tribe-colored glasses".

I think the polarization dealio with JB is not what he has done to date, it's what some of us fear he will do in October. Is there another, more qualified guy on the roster today who I would rather see closing? No.

Do I wish there were and hope there is by July? Yes.

[He Gone]

Fernando Cabrera.

Gave up two more homers tonight; and has given up, now I believe, 4 homers in his last 2 apperances.

He is certainly not our guy to be closer. Borowski is the guy!

Yeah, my opinion has had some very bad timing these last few days...

I still think Taxi should be our closer eventually this year, hes just got that killer K-Rod kind of electric stuff.

If he can ever figure out the art of consistency, he would be a dominant closer.

[leadpipe]

I see what you're saying but I will not apologize because I honestly believe that anyone who thinks Joe Borowski should not be the closer of this team is a moron. I was simply calling out these "morons" and asking who they would choose to close in Borowski's place.

Moron number two here. Reiterating what I said a few weeks back, I don't see how anyone who watches baseball cvan look at Borowski's stuff and location and feel he's going to do a good job. I never claimed there to be a dead nuts guy to step in. I do feel whomever they would replace him with would do as good of a job. We'll see. There are no guarantees. But there ain't a guy in the league living at the belt at 87 miles an hour.

[Dozen]

I see what you're saying but I will not apologize because I honestly believe that anyone who thinks Joe Borowski should not be the closer of this team is a moron. I was simply calling out these "morons" and asking who they would choose to close in Borowski's place.

Moron number two here. Reiterating what I said a few weeks back, I don't see how anyone who watches baseball cvan look at Borowski's stuff and location and feel he's going to do a good job. I never claimed there to be a dead nuts guy to step in. I do feel whomever they would replace him with would do as good of a job. We'll see. There are no guarantees. But there ain't a guy in the league living at the belt at 87 miles an hour.

I guess I'll be moron #3 (even though I have said it before) JB is not a good closer.......point blank period.

[dmcdougal]

but there won't be an elite closer available in July. Borowski is the guy for the duration of the season and with this group, I wouldn't have it any other way. All you guys who are saying Borowski is not a good closer and that he throws belt-high 87 MPH fastballs... you're not really accomplishing anything. You can't honestly tell me you would rather see some AAA kid in there over Borowski
1) there will be no trade options. It's not like Huston Street, Mariano Rivera, or Billy Wagner will be on the trading block come July.
2) Borowski is a decent closer. He had a great season with Chicago before the arm injury. Came back and was great in the set up role with TB. Had a great season with Florida last year. He is having a great season this season (Don't look at ERA or WHIP, look at SV%).
3) Decent is all we will have this season. We're not going to trade and Borowski's contract ends at the end of the season. The best POSSIBLE option would be to bring in Francisco Cordero in the free agent market. That is looking unlikely since he is doing fantastic in Milwaukee

[dmcdougal]

Just a fun fact: Bobby Wickman had a high whip and a not-so-good fastball but what did he do during his time at Cleveland?? Oh, I dunno... maybe have the highest save percentage in the majors (even ahead of Rivera). You don't need a 95% MPH fastball like Lidge, Rodriguez, Wagner, and others to be a successful closer.

[consigliere]

Just for the record, I believe Borowski is a run of the mill closer....pretty much the definition of league average if you ask me. And, I am fine with it for now until (if) we find another alternative.....but that alternative is not in-house if you ask me, and will need to come in a trade....and no significant closers will be available execpt those with warts and baggage.

So, we have to live with Borowski for now....at least until late June or in July when possibly a closer or two become available. But, like I said, even those will have their issues. We ain't gettin K-Rod....we're getting a Danys Baez type or Chad Cordero type at best.

[dmcdougal]

Amen.. you just put it nicer than I lol

[mattvan1]

dmcdougal - At the risk of further beating this dead horse, let me again ask of you hypothetically

Do you feel comfortable that Joe Borowski is the closer for the ALCS vs. the Red Sox this October? A binary response would be appreciated.

[hermanfontenot]

I think that I have been pretty consistent in my argument all along. I would trade for Brad Lidge. However, Joe Borowski is our closer for this season regardless of whether we do that trade or not. He only signed a 1 year deal everyone. He IS NOT the answer however he is the closer for this season. And besides, who would you anti-borowski morons choose instead? Cabrera? Betancourt? Ya good luck with that

How about the vaguely Dwight K. Shrute-esque Tom "Nasty" Mastny? He did an admirable job last year as an emergency closer.

[consigliere]

However, Joe Borowski is our closer for this season regardless of whether we do that trade or not. He only signed a 1 year deal everyone. He IS NOT the answer however he is the closer for this season.

Just an FYI, but the fact Borowski is only signed to a one year deal actually makes it more likely he could be replaced mid-season and dumped if need be.

If a better closing option becomes available in a trade, he'll be replaced and move to the 8th inning (or traded or released). So, it is not written in stone he is the closer all year, although it looks like he could be though....but mostly because there are not many better options available and not because of the value or length of his contract.

[intenso]

Borowski is fourth in the majors in saves. ERAs for a guy that pitches one inning don't mean a whole lot.

Now is not the time to panic and start throwing untested middle relievers out there.

[dmcdougal]

I was pointing out the one year contract to say that Shap knows he isn't a long-term solution. Hell, Borowski is 37 years old of course he knows that. But i don't see him being dumped mid-season or traded unless he does bad. But, as intenso pointed out, he is doing quite well.

Mattvan... I would not feel comfortable with Borowski closing against the Red Sox in the ALCS. This is beside the point but I don't think the Sox will be in the ALCS. But i digress.
However, I would not feel comfortable with ANYONE closing against the Red Sox in the ALCS except maybe a few select closers. Even Rivera has blown some games in the playoffs. We're not going to get an elite closer. Anyone we get is going to blow saves. its just part of the game. I know Borowski blew a few saves and they weren't pretty but all pitchers have bad games. So let's just end this whole argument and agree that Borowski is the guy for this team for the remainder of the season

[mattvan1]

We're not going to get an elite closer.

Probably not, but it should not stop Shapiro from seeing what's out there.

Anyone we get is going to blow saves. its just part of the game. I know Borowski blew a few saves and they weren't pretty but all pitchers have bad games.

True

So let's just end this whole argument and agree that Borowski is the guy for this team for the remainder of the season

I'll take "Completely False Statement for the Google Search Engine" for $500, Alex. Not hatin' on your boy, but why should I agree with something that makes me want to vomit? I can agree the Borowski is the closer for now, and may indeed be "the guy" (shudder) for this team for the remainder of the season, but then again, if someone (perceived) better comes along at the deadline, should Shapiro not try to land him?

[dmcdougal]

ah I was hoping to be finished with the Borowski argument lol.
If Shap finds someone else on the market that is available for trade then he should definitely take a look. There are a few conditions that I would make before trading for a closer mid-season.
1) Must be under or near 30 years old.
2) Must have more than 1 year on his contract when he comes to Cleveland
3) Must really be better than Borowski. I really think you undervalue him.


I am open to trading for a closer. However, a closer that we want is not going to be on the market so I am just writing it off and saying that Borowski, barring a total collapse, would be our closer for the entire season.

[Steve Buffum]

It sounds like you guys are talking past each other.

Contention 1: Joe Borowski has a repertoire that makes consistent, dependable, high-quality success unlikely

Contention 2: Joe Borowski is our best option at closer

These two contentions are compatible. In fact, they have almost nothing to do with each other. Borowski is an effective closer because of his mindset, composure, and forgetfulness (able to shake off a bad outing), not because of his "stuff." More succinctly, the fact that Borowski is our best option doesn't IMPLY that Borowski is very good, and Borowski's lack of excellence doesn't IMPLY that he needs to be replaced immediately.

In the end, we're left with the tautology, "Our closer would be better if he were better. And all other things being equal, our team would be better if it consisted of better players who played better." Although I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, it's not a very interesting discussion point.

[dmcdougal]

Steve your simply proving my point, not disagreeing with me. I am saying that Borowski doesn't have overpowering stuff but he gets the job done because of that mental toughness that you noted. He is going to get blown up sometimes but that comes with the territory. Alas, I am just going to end the argument. It seems more people think Borowski is a good closer than when I started.

[consigliere]

If Shap finds someone else on the market that is available for trade then he should definitely take a look. There are a few conditions that I would make before trading for a closer mid-season.
1) Must be under or near 30 years old.
2) Must have more than 1 year on his contract when he comes to Cleveland
3) Must really be better than Borowski. I really think you undervalue him.

Points one and two are moot. The only thing that matters is #3. I could care less how old the guy is or how long he is under contract....if he is better than Borowski, and is available....I want him.

[rawdawgexpress]

If the Tribe should be able to nab the wild card spot after the Tiger win the division- we'll make the playoffs.

The Tribe will be in the playoffs with Borowski closing and Wedge managing. Shudder.

[Dozen]

As much as I dislike JB as our closer Consig makes some good points. But IMO, if this team is in the thick of things around the trading deadline they are going to have to go out and get someone. I don't like to give up prospects, especially in our market because the end up being cheaper replacements. But on the other hand I dont want a guy in Buffalo having a great year when he could return someone who could help the Indians this year. At some point this team is gonna have to roll the dice and take a chance. Not just going with who we have because they will be replacing a free agent in a year or 2. Thats just the economics of our franchise.

[consigliere]

I'm completely on board with trading any of of our prospects except Carmona, Miller and Lofgren. I in no way trade them unless we just are absolutely floored with a deal.

But, everyone else is available. For some of the higher rated guys, I'm not just going to give them away though. The deal has to make sense. I mean, I'm not doing stupid stuff like the Mets did trading a top prospect in Kazmir for a #5 starter (Zambrano). If we are trading some of those guys, I want good layers in return and not fringy bullpen or position players.

[pup]

If we are trading some of those guys, I want good layers in return

You been spending time in the clubhouse after games?

[Dozen]

If we are trading some of those guys, I want good layers in return

You been spending time in the clubhouse after games?

lol, yeah T....I agree with the players you mentioned.