Potential Indians Trade Targets

[pup]

Meanwhile, Hanley Ramirez just got dealt for Jenmar Gomez and an A baller.

The Marlins disgust me. Firesale 3.0, but this time with no World Series win.

The Indians disgust me for not being involved.

[gotribe31]

Lillibridge? Can Shapiro and Antonetti do anything else to piss off fans more? We're still hoping for filet mignon and still getting Puppy Chow.

Jonathan Knight should take his spot-on letter to Shapiro, make it a petition, and have the 200,000 disgruntled Indians fans in northern Ohio sign it.

Seriously. I can't beleive Jose de la Torre didn't get more. John Hart would have flipped him to the Angels for Pujols, Trout and Trumbo, AND had the Angels cover all of their salaries.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

The Indians disgust me for not being involved.

I will say this though, what exactly have the Marlins got so far?

A pitching prospect who is trending downwards and 38 million in salary relief after trading 3 of their best players.

If we traded Choo or Asdrubal for salary relief the outcry of bitching would be deafening and if we traded Masterson in a deal for 1 unproven pitching prospect and a couple of lower impact guys, you would get the same outcry.

Not sure we really want any part of this market right now. Plus the one team who would be motivated to overpay (The Rangers) we dont match up with what they would want right now.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

Lillibridge? Can Shapiro and Antonetti do anything else to piss off fans more? We're still hoping for filet mignon and still getting Puppy Chow.

Jonathan Knight should take his spot-on letter to Shapiro, make it a petition, and have the 200,000 disgruntled Indians fans in northern Ohio sign it.

You are getting too worked up over a non consequential move. They just wanted to get a utility man who is used to being a utility man probably more for next year, or it could be depth if a move is made to trade Jason Donald. This isn't "THEIR" move. Its a normal everyday baseball transaction.

[gotribe31]

Meanwhile, Hanley Ramirez just got dealt for Jenmar Gomez and an A baller.

The Marlins disgust me. Firesale 3.0, but this time with no World Series win.

The Indians disgust me for not being involved.

Really? For Hanley Ramirez? In the past two years, the guy has hit .245/.328/.405 with 24 HR. Total. And he's trending downward. He's always hurt, he's terrible in the clubhouse, and he refused to even TRY to learn to play 3B. He makes $15 mil this year, $15.5 mil next year, and $16 mil in 2014. And people say Hafner's contract is an albatross? This is just as bad.

I understand (some of) the frustration with the current front office. This is not something we should be bitching about.

[skatingtripods]

A pitching prospect who is trending downwards

Eovaldi is 22, in the big leagues, and never pitched in AAA. He's not trending downwards. He's a kid trying to learn while being rushed into the Show.


And, yeah, I wanted no part of Hanley either. Guy's an asshole. He'd never try hard in Cleveland.

[dazindiansfanuk]

A pitching prospect who is trending downwards

Eovaldi is 22, in the big leagues, and never pitched in AAA. He's not trending downwards. He's a kid trying to learn while being rushed into the Show.


And, yeah, I wanted no part of Hanley either. Guy's an asshole. He'd never try hard in Cleveland.

I don't know but, I suspect he was referring to Jacob Turner in an overall assessment of the Marlins trades so far.

[pup]

As big of an asshole as he may be.
And as bad as he has been.

He would instantly be the best RH hitter in this lineup. And he was available. And he plays a position of NEED currently.

Youk was washed up, so no interest.
Hanley is a problem, so no interest.

They have become great at building a .500 club. Kudos.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

A pitching prospect who is trending downwards

Eovaldi is 22, in the big leagues, and never pitched in AAA. He's not trending downwards. He's a kid trying to learn while being rushed into the Show.

I was referencing Turner, who is dropping down prospect lists

[skatingtripods]

I don't know but, I suspect he was referring to Jacob Turner in an overall assessment of the Marlins trades so far.

Oh. Well, I didn't know that a 21 year old that has already reached the show is trending downward because of six bad starts. He was only the #22 prospect in all of baseball according to Baseball America before the season.

Fucking christ. Not every pitcher who comes up from the minors is going to set the world on fire.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

You can chill with the attitude dude. My opinion has nothing to do with 6 bad starts, I dont rush to judgement or make my decisions on knee jerk reactions because of only 6 bad starts.


Nobody said nor do I expect every pitcher to set the world on fire. I was just saying in reference to PUP being dissapointed/frsutrated, which I can understand that the Marlins really have not brought in all that much in comparison to what they have shipped out.


As for Turner he isn't even on the updated top 50 mideseason list (not that these lists are the be end to end all lists, nor does it mean he wont be any good)He is also completely off the lists from Bleacher Report, dropped to 25 on Fangraphs, and i cant find access to espn's rankings (insider required)

John Finley (Chagrin Falls, Ohio): Was there any consideration to include Jacob Turner on the top 50 list?


J.J. Cooper: Consideration yes, but he doesn't seem to be the prospect these days that he was coming out of high school. You want to see him miss more bats.

Joe (Miami): How have the Marlins done in the 2 trades so far? Will Turner, Eovaldi, and Brantly make an impact in the majors next season?


Jim Callis: They did fine, though Turner's scouting reports aren't as glowing now as they were a couple of years ago. He's less overpowering, kind of the same thing that happened with Rick Porcello and the Tigers. Eovaldi may be better suited to be a reliever than a starter. Brantly can be a big league regular behind the plate.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/chat/2012/2613648.html

[skatingtripods]

As big of an asshole as he may be.
And as bad as he has been.

He would instantly be the best RH hitter in this lineup. And he was available. And he plays a position of NEED currently.

Youk was washed up, so no interest.
Hanley is a problem, so no interest.

They have become great at building a .500 club. Kudos.

And he's being paid 15M next year and 16M the year after that. We simply can't afford to have a guy hitting 2fucking40 in our lineup making 15M. Haven't we talked ad nauseum about how much Hafner's contract is killing us? So, that's your solution? A more expensive player with an OPS 26 points below Hafner's? Hafner's 2011 OPS was 100 points higher than Hanley's.

So what, Hanley can play third. A pretty average third at that.

Best right handed hitter on the team, sure. But that's not saying much of anything.

[pup]

As big of an asshole as he may be.
And as bad as he has been.

He would instantly be the best RH hitter in this lineup. And he was available. And he plays a position of NEED currently.

Youk was washed up, so no interest.
Hanley is a problem, so no interest.

They have become great at building a .500 club. Kudos.

And he's being paid 15M next year and 16M the year after that. We simply can't afford to have a guy hitting 2fucking40 in our lineup making 15M. Haven't we talked ad nauseum about how much Hafner's contract is killing us? So, that's your solution? A more expensive player with an OPS 26 points below Hafner's? Hafner's 2011 OPS was 100 points higher than Hanley's.

So what, Hanley can play third. A pretty average third at that.

Best right handed hitter on the team, sure. But that's not saying much of anything.

^ is the attitude of an organization that is happy shooting for .500 and hoping for some good fortune and others to under perform.

Hafner better have a better fucking OPS since that is the ONLY thing he can do.

If you think the Indians are better off with Jack at third than Hanley Ramirez, fine by me. You would be wrong, but that is OK. A fucking guy hitting a notch above .200 for the last 3 months is better than Hanley Ramirez? A guy that is on pace for another 25 homer 25 steal season. Jack's glove makes up for that kind of production? Not even freakin close.

Another payroll excuse. Christ.

[WiscTribeFan]

The reason the Dodgers picked him up on the cheap was that they were willing to pay all of his salary. Personally, if he was going to be a malcontent in Miami, it would have been even worse had he been traded to Cleveland.

I can't fault the FO for not wanting in on this deal.

The A’s pursued Hanley Ramirez aggressively before the Marlins sent him to Los Angeles, Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com reports. Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle confirms that the A’s were “very much in on” Ramirez (Twitter link). The Marlins recently offered Oakland a “sweet deal” that would have sent Ramirez to the A's for a couple of minor leaguers and enough cash to cover half of Ramirez’s contract, Knobler writes. But the A’s held off on the deal, and the Dodgers agreed to take on all of Ramirez’s salary.

[pup]

Teams 20 games under 500 have malcontents.

Fucking A. We want to win a World Series with a bunch of choir boy, hustling hard workers. Good luck with that.

At the end of the day, this is what infuriates me and many about this organization. So risk adverse. Sitting back trying to make the best team possible with as little risk possible. A goal to be average!

[Adverb Harry]

Antonetti right after yesterday's trade:

[WiscTribeFan]

Teams 20 games under 500 have malcontents.

Fucking A. We want to win a World Series with a bunch of choir boy, hustling hard workers. Good luck with that.

At the end of the day, this is what infuriates me and many about this organization. So risk adverse. Sitting back trying to make the best team possible with as little risk possible. A goal to be average!

There's a difference between being the best right handed bat on your team and being one of the best right handed bats in the league. At $15-16M a season for the next two, he has to be better than simply being the best RH hitter on a team filled with suck-ass RH hitters. If we're going that route, get the Cubs to pay most of Soriano's contract and pick him up.

I don't disagree that the team needs to get off their hands and do something, but I don't think that investing that much coin in a guy who barely looks like he gives two shits half the time living in a more desirable location is the wisest move for this organization.

[skatingtripods]

^ is the attitude of an organization that is happy shooting for .500 and hoping for some good fortune and others to under perform.

Hafner better have a better fucking OPS since that is the ONLY thing he can do.

If you think the Indians are better off with Jack at third than Hanley Ramirez, fine by me. You would be wrong, but that is OK. A fucking guy hitting a notch above .200 for the last 3 months is better than Hanley Ramirez? A guy that is on pace for another 25 homer 25 steal season. Jack's glove makes up for that kind of production? Not even freakin close.

Another payroll excuse. Christ.

Riddle me this, pup. What makes you think that Hanley would even show up to play for the team? And, I don't mean physically show up, because he'd pretty much have to. But, what's his incentive to give a shit?

You think he can sleepwalk through a 25/25 season in Cleveland?

If you're getting a Hanley Ramirez that WANTS to play, then yes, he might be worth it. But, the clubhouse cancer, arrogant asshole that you'd get wouldn't be worth it at all.

Never said that the Indians are better off with Hannahan at 3B. Saying the Indians are better off without a malcontent making 25% of the team's payroll.

[TouchEmAllTime]

I guess a different way to look at it would be, trade for him for nothing, hope for a strong rest of the year and trade him in the off season for a little bit more than you gave up, or just dump him for basically what you traded him for, thus the salary next year is a non issue, because there's always a team willing to take a star, bad rep and all.

Maybe easier said than done, but I don't think out of the realm of possibility either. I think people are upset at the lack of aggressiveness of the FO and seeing decent players being picked up by other teams (esp. division rivals) for arguably not high end minor league assets (although I do still think Jacob Turner could be good down the road). But Detroit was aggressive regardless. Taking on salary isn't as huge an issue as most of us think IMHO. Maybe my frustration has made me delusional about how difficult managing payroll is, but a bigger part of me thinks that we have an FO that's not maximizing every avenue of improving this team.

And I'm not talking strictly about Hanley Ramirez, I mean anyone in general.

[pup]

Teams 20 games under 500 have malcontents.

Fucking A. We want to win a World Series with a bunch of choir boy, hustling hard workers. Good luck with that.

At the end of the day, this is what infuriates me and many about this organization. So risk adverse. Sitting back trying to make the best team possible with as little risk possible. A goal to be average!

There's a difference between being the best right handed bat on your team and being one of the best right handed bats in the league. At $15-16M a season for the next two, he has to be better than simply being the best RH hitter on a team filled with suck-ass RH hitters. If we're going that route, get the Cubs to pay most of Soriano's contract and pick him up.

I don't disagree that the team needs to get off their hands and do something, but I don't think that investing that much coin in a guy who barely looks like he gives two shits half the time living in a more desirable location is the wisest move for this organization.

OK. Go get Soriano. Problem is, to get the Cubs to pick up most of his contract you are going to have to trade away better prospects (which we don't have, by the way). The Dodgers just got Hanley by giving up feh and meh, because they absorbed his entire contract.

Maybe he looks like he doesn't give a shit because he is in a more desirable location. Maybe being in Miami has become too much of a distraction and stupid old boring Cleveland is exactly what he needs.

Trading for him would be a risk. I get that. But not very often you get to pick up a guy with his talent for a couple of guys pegged to end up as good bullpen arms. We are scared he fails. Which is why we are building a never ending average club.

[skatingtripods]

I guess a different way to look at it would be, trade for him for nothing, hope for a strong rest of the year and trade him in the off season for a little bit more than you gave up, or just dump him for basically what you traded him for, thus the salary next year is a non issue, because there's always a team willing to take a star, bad rep and all.

Do the Indians make the playoffs with Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, Kevin Youkilis, or Brett Myers? That's the question you should be asking, not wondering if the front office will ever improve the team at the trade deadline. Does it somehow make it better if they made an attempt but still missed the playoffs? And that the attempt at the expense of an already bare farm system.

If they acquire somebody and miss the playoffs, the reaction is "They should have done more." or "Why were they buyers when they clearly weren't making the playoffs?" or "Why did we waste (insert prospect here) on that guy?"

We can't "trade for Hanley for nothing". Who's the 22 year old pitcher we have making big league starts right now? Oh, yeah, we don't have one. Who's the rotation depth we can afford to give up? Oh, yeah, we don't have any. Gomez might take over for Lowe at some point and nobody wants Gomez in a trade anyway.

Is this team one or two players away from making a postseason run? No, not with what's available, unless they had the ammo to get Justin Upton and Matt Garza/Zack Greinke. They don't.

Yes, you can tell me all day every day that Player X is an upgrade over a current Indian. I can also tell you that the team that has Player X sees nobody they want from the Indians system. Takes two sides to make a deal.

[pup]

^ is the attitude of an organization that is happy shooting for .500 and hoping for some good fortune and others to under perform.

Hafner better have a better fucking OPS since that is the ONLY thing he can do.

If you think the Indians are better off with Jack at third than Hanley Ramirez, fine by me. You would be wrong, but that is OK. A fucking guy hitting a notch above .200 for the last 3 months is better than Hanley Ramirez? A guy that is on pace for another 25 homer 25 steal season. Jack's glove makes up for that kind of production? Not even freakin close.

Another payroll excuse. Christ.

Riddle me this, pup. What makes you think that Hanley would even show up to play for the team? And, I don't mean physically show up, because he'd pretty much have to. But, what's his incentive to give a shit?

You think he can sleepwalk through a 25/25 season in Cleveland?

If you're getting a Hanley Ramirez that WANTS to play, then yes, he might be worth it. But, the clubhouse cancer, arrogant asshole that you'd get wouldn't be worth it at all.

Never said that the Indians are better off with Hannahan at 3B. Saying the Indians are better off without a malcontent making 25% of the team's payroll.

I think Hanley Ramirez would be reinvigorated by being in a push to make the playoffs.
Isn't he sleepwalking towards one in Miami?

You think they are better off having Jack than Hanley at 3B. Which is beyond ridiculous. You can phrase it any way you want, but to say they should not have gone after him is saying that he would not make them better. Which I think should be the goal.

[skatingtripods]

I think Hanley Ramirez would be reinvigorated by being in a push to make the playoffs.
Isn't he sleepwalking towards one in Miami?

You think they are better off having Jack than Hanley at 3B. Which is beyond ridiculous. You can phrase it any way you want, but to say they should not have gone after him is saying that he would not make them better. Which I think should be the goal.

Never said they should avoid Hanley because he isn't better than Hannahan. Said they shouldn't go after Hanley because he's owed too much money for the production he's giving and because I don't think he'd give a shit here. You think otherwise, for whatever reason. Maybe it's track record we have of being an attractive destination for players. Maybe Hanley will have a change of heart.

He was playing in Miami to get out of town. He'll probably hang a monster two months in LA. But, such is life.

[leadpipe]

The Marlins don't use a much different process than the Tribe - they just do it better.

They swung and missed on a few bad contracts the last couple of years - particularly Buck and Bell. I assume it will be back to business as usual.

[Am I Here Again?]

As big of an asshole as he may be.
And as bad as he has been.

He would instantly be the best RH hitter in this lineup. And he was available. And he plays a position of NEED currently.

Youk was washed up, so no interest.
Hanley is a problem, so no interest.

They have become great at building a .500 club. Kudos.

Didn't we have a relatively attitude-free Hanley a few years back? Some guy named Andy Marte? He's not playing anymore - maybe the Tribe could entice him back for a couple million.

OTOH, you might want a guy with Shelley Duncan stats because he might play better in C-Town. I think it's better to have a guy with those kind of stats making Shelley Duncan money (half-million).

[WiscTribeFan]

Maybe being in Miami has become too much of a distraction and stupid old boring Cleveland is exactly what he needs.

Said no baseball player, ever.

Problem is, to get the Cubs to pick up most of his contract you are going to have to trade away better prospects

Actually, I don't think this is true. The Cubs know they will have to eat most of his contract to simply move him out of town regardless of what they get in return. They want to play the kids, Soriano's in the way. He has been playing well of late, which makes him a touch more attractive, but no-one's picking up more than a couple of million on that deal. I think he'll get moved and it won't be for much, and it won't have to be before the non-waiver deadline. Probably after the Tribe falls out of contention, though.

[pup]

As big of an asshole as he may be.
And as bad as he has been.

He would instantly be the best RH hitter in this lineup. And he was available. And he plays a position of NEED currently.

Youk was washed up, so no interest.
Hanley is a problem, so no interest.

They have become great at building a .500 club. Kudos.

Didn't we have a relatively attitude-free Hanley a few years back? Some guy named Andy Marte? He's not playing anymore - maybe the Tribe could entice him back for a couple million.

OTOH, you might want a guy with Shelley Duncan stats because he might play better in C-Town. I think it's better to have a guy with those kind of stats making Shelley Duncan money (half-million).

Once you compare a former Rookie of the Year, runner up to the MVP award and someone that ya know, actually plays in the majors to Andy Marte, I cannot even begin to try to understand whatever other drivel you type. I almost thought you followed it up with saying something about Shelly Duncan being as good as Hanley Ramirez, but I figured there is no way in hell anyone could do that.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

Once you compare a former Rookie of the Year, runner up to the MVP award and someone that ya know, actually plays in the majors to Andy Marte, I cannot even begin to try to understand whatever other drivel you type. I almost thought you followed it up with saying something about Shelly Duncan being as good as Hanley Ramirez, but I figured there is no way in hell anyone could do that.

No need to be an asshole man

[pup]

I think Hanley Ramirez would be reinvigorated by being in a push to make the playoffs.
Isn't he sleepwalking towards one in Miami?

You think they are better off having Jack than Hanley at 3B. Which is beyond ridiculous. You can phrase it any way you want, but to say they should not have gone after him is saying that he would not make them better. Which I think should be the goal.

Never said they should avoid Hanley because he isn't better than Hannahan. Said they shouldn't go after Hanley because he's owed too much money for the production he's giving and because I don't think he'd give a shit here. You think otherwise, for whatever reason. Maybe it's track record we have of being an attractive destination for players. Maybe Hanley will have a change of heart.

He was playing in Miami to get out of town. He'll probably hang a monster two months in LA. But, such is life.

OK. Since there is obviously some long track record I am not aware of, please name all of the former all stars that the Indians have obtained and played worse because they have to play in this shitty city? Even you know he is going to blow up for 2 months...yet we don't want him. Sometimes I really have a hard time understanding otherwise really intelligent people when they get into their defend the Tribe mode.

[pup]

Once you compare a former Rookie of the Year, runner up to the MVP award and someone that ya know, actually plays in the majors to Andy Marte, I cannot even begin to try to understand whatever other drivel you type. I almost thought you followed it up with saying something about Shelly Duncan being as good as Hanley Ramirez, but I figured there is no way in hell anyone could do that.

No need to be an asshole man

Plenty of need.

[Adverb Harry]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Am I Here Again?]

....They have become great at building a .500 club. Kudos.

Didn't we have a relatively attitude-free Hanley a few years back? Some guy named Andy Marte? He's not playing anymore - maybe the Tribe could entice him back for a couple million.

OTOH, you might want a guy with Shelley Duncan stats because he might play better in C-Town. I think it's better to have a guy with those kind of stats making Shelley Duncan money (half-million).

Once you compare a former Rookie of the Year, runner up to the MVP award and someone that ya know, actually plays in the majors to Andy Marte, I cannot even begin to try to understand whatever other drivel you type. I almost thought you followed it up with saying something about Shelly Duncan being as good as Hanley Ramirez, but I figured there is no way in hell anyone could do that.

Than you for your kind and eloquent critique. Sorry I was confusing. I will now take my tongue out of my cheek.

skatingtripods pointed out that Ramirez' production has gone down the last several seasons. My point was the Tribe let Marte go in 2010 having basically the same kind of stats that Ramirez is putting up this year. Currently Ramirez has a .246BA/.322OBP/.428SLG/.749OPS. In his last year with the Tribe (2010) 3rd baseman Andy Marte batted .229/.298/.382/.680. Close enough when you figure Marte was paid $413,400 in 2010. Ramirez made $7M in 2010, slated to make $15M this year. Marte's previous season saw him batting .232/.293/.400/.693. Ramirez' last year stats saw him batting .243/.333/.379/.712. Granted Ramirez was the Rookie of the year - in frickin' 2006! But this is 2012, Ramirez hasn't had any award of value since 2009, and he's known to be a clubhouse cancer. There is no reason whatsoever to take on the contract of a player who "used to be" great and has had dropping production. Unless, of course, you want to overpay for another meh player. But he would keep up the tradition of the Tribe getting once-great players on their way down.

Probably shouldn't have thrown in Duncan since he doesn't play 3rd. But for half a million dollars he'll give you similar production at the plate that Ramirez has put up the last couple years. (2012: .225/.322/.434/.755 ~~~ 2011: .260/.324/.484/.808) It's more like Hanley Ramirez has, statistically, been as bad as Shelley Duncan over the last couple of years. Hey, it ain't your money. Why should you care how you spend it?

Hope this explanation meets your writing standards. If not, bite me.

[Prosecutor]

From AIHA's link:

Hanley Ramirez was a clubhouse cancer, there is no way around that fact after several anonymous Marlins spoke up today stating how much happier the clubhouse is after Ramirez’s departure. There were publicly reported transgressions over the years for the former All-Star and a lack of production on the field. There’s a good chance two times as many reports of Ramirez’s transgressions didn’t make it to the public. In addition to bringing the locker room down, Ramirez was grossly overpaid considering his production the past two seasons. With another 2.5 years to go on his contract, Miami had to move him when a chance arose to wipe his entire contract out. In this day and age, it is not considered possible to unload $38.5 million dollars with a player who has hit under .250 the last seasons.

I don't know, I think I'd rather use the $38.5 million (which is chicken feed to the Indians, right?) to try and extend the contracts of Masterson, Brantley, Chiz, Kipnis, and Vinnie. Or add a competent left fielder and first baseman. You know, upgrades over Damon and Kotchman.

But hey, let's take a risk on this guy. A better third baseman over the next nine weeks will put us over the top, right? As for the next two years, well, we can find another position for Chisenhall. Left field?

[pup]

And those two posts, in a nutshell, is the prime example of Shapiro brainfucking Tribe fans.

Go ask 29 GMs. Would you rather have Andy Marte and Shells Duncan for $500,000 or Hanley Ramirez for $15M.

The object of the sport is to acquire better players. Hanley is better, at all costs.

Using "Hanley $" to extend those other cats? Fantastic. So we can extend the stretch of time that we have a great shot at being mediocre!!!!

Hanley's numbers have been effected by being injured (but playing through a lot of it) last year. This year? Sure, they are down. But being thrown in a pennant race has a strange way of correcting some things. Just like I said in the Youk thread. Dollars to donuts, Hanley's production from here forward will destroy what we have at 3B. But who cares about actually getting better when you have a chance at staying low risk, low reward even when within a handful of games of the playoffs.

They make a move for a RH bat in the next week, I can understand not chasing Hanley. And I will take back some of my anger. But they won't, so I won't.

[rigs]

Tough to tell what is more disturbing. The current path the Indians are on, and have been on since 2002, or the seemingly giddy followers of this plan?

How can this at all be defended? Youkilis being washed up is pretty irrelevant. Sox got him for 3 months, not 5 years. We wouldn't part with Josh Tomlin? We aren't in on Hanley and Soriano because of cash. Big market...small market- you have to pay SOMEONE. And the trade deadline is the perfect chance to puss out and get a high priced guy for only 2-3 years, instead of 4-5 in the offseason.

Given the bill of goods we were sold at the deadline last year with Ubaldo and how we had crossed the magical line into windowville 2012-2014, our last offseason wasn't bad...it was absolutely embarrassing. There isn't another word to describe it. How do you not address the glaring need with so many options out there?

[skatingtripods]

And those two posts, in a nutshell, is the prime example of Shapiro brainfucking Tribe fans.

Right. Because we've given reasoned arguments about Hanley's .240/.720 over the last two years and explained how that's not worth 15M. Brainfucked indeed.

Hanley's numbers have been effected by being injured (but playing through a lot of it) last year. This year? Sure, they are down. But being thrown in a pennant race has a strange way of correcting some things. Just like I said in the Youk thread. Dollars to donuts, Hanley's production from here forward will destroy what we have at 3B. But who cares about actually getting better when you have a chance at staying low risk, low reward even when within a handful of games of the playoffs.

That's cute. Hanley plays hurt. What's his excuse this year?

And at what point are the Indians in a pennant race? Hanley Ramirez fixes the offense and the pitching staff?!? Shit, we should have given up Kipnis for him.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

Go ask 29 GMs. Would you rather have Andy Marte and Shells Duncan for $500,000 or Hanley Ramirez for $15M.

And this post, in a nutshell, is why the Irrational Shaponetti Haters' Club doesn't get it either. Because any of those GMs who doesn't have a hole on the left side of their infield the size of Prince Fielder and access to Scrooge McDuck's moneybin will take option C: Neither.

Yeah, sure, he'd be the best RH bat on the team right now. Which would have been worth about as much as being the best player on the Cavs between Lebron and Kyrie. A year from now, Ramirez would have been a $15 million DH - if that - and the usual suspects would have been bitching about wasting cash on him just like they did Hafner and Sizemore.

Some of us get that the front office ain't all that. But when you go off on them not getting Hanley Ramirez like they didn't trade for your favorite binky? You're being just as irrational as anyone who's glossing right over all the fumbles that put us in this position to begin with.

[pup]

And those two posts, in a nutshell, is the prime example of Shapiro brainfucking Tribe fans.

Right. Because we've given reasoned arguments about Hanley's .240/.720 over the last two years and explained how that's not worth 15M. Brainfucked indeed.

There has not been a reasoned argument yet. He is a crybaby is the best you got. Because even at the lowest point in his career, he is the best RH bat and at worst 3rd best offensive player in the entire organization. If Lonnie takes over 3B (finally) by beating out a stiff who has been marginally better than Hanley with the glove this year, then yes, we have a DH. Or trade bait. Worry about that after the season. Take a risk at actually trying to win THIS year.

Hanley's numbers have been effected by being injured (but playing through a lot of it) last year. This year? Sure, they are down. But being thrown in a pennant race has a strange way of correcting some things. Just like I said in the Youk thread. Dollars to donuts, Hanley's production from here forward will destroy what we have at 3B. But who cares about actually getting better when you have a chance at staying low risk, low reward even when within a handful of games of the playoffs.

That's cute. Hanley plays hurt. What's his excuse this year?

And at what point are the Indians in a pennant race? Hanley Ramirez fixes the offense and the pitching staff?!? Shit, we should have given up Kipnis for him.

He could have been effected by the position change. By the fact the organization that he was the face of decided to get stupid and bring in a guy that is not as good as he is and give his position to him. Maybe Hanley doesn't perform that great for an Ozzie Guillen type? I do not know what his problem is this year. But I am confident it will be fixed now that he is out of Miami.

Pretty sure the Indians are in a pennant race today. Unless we are trading for CC, not a lot of players out there that can help the offense and the pitching staff so I guess we should just throw our hands up in the air. Screw breathing some fresh air into a stagnant portion of your team because it does not cure all that ails you. Keep running holes out there at 3 of the 4 corner spots...that should get you somewhere.

If you think back, this team was playing well when Jack was hitting early in the year. Tells me they could be one offensive player short. Hanley was that guy. Soriano could be that guy. Quintin could have been that guy. You know who is not that guy? Jack, Casey, John, Shells. But keep trotting them out there and hope something good happens.

Keep running with the Kipnis angle. Since I have said the benefit to getting Hanley was the cost. A couple of future bullpen arms. It would be stupid to trade any of the productive players to get him.

[motherscratcher]

This thread is still open? I just figured it would be locked after the Tribe went all in with Lillibridge.

[pup]

Go ask 29 GMs. Would you rather have Andy Marte and Shells Duncan for $500,000 or Hanley Ramirez for $15M.

And this post, in a nutshell, is why the Irrational Shaponetti Haters' Club doesn't get it either. Because any of those GMs who doesn't have a hole on the left side of their infield the size of Prince Fielder and access to Scrooge McDuck's moneybin will take option C: Neither.

Yeah, sure, he'd be the best RH bat on the team right now. Which would have been worth about as much as being the best player on the Cavs between Lebron and Kyrie. A year from now, Ramirez would have been a $15 million DH - if that - and the usual suspects would have been bitching about wasting cash on him just like they did Hafner and Sizemore.

Some of us get that the front office ain't all that. But when you go off on them not getting Hanley Ramirez like they didn't trade for your favorite binky? You're being just as irrational as anyone who's glossing right over all the fumbles that put us in this position to begin with.

But we do.

So you are saying that adding a significant RH bat does not help the Indians? That they are currently the Cavs without LBJ or Kyrie? 4 games out of 1st place?

If they gave Hanley an extension instead of keeping what they called the core moving forward, when he had a chronic health condition, then yes I would be pissed like I am about Hafner.

If they gave Hanley $5M to spend a season on the DL like they did Sizemore, then yes I would be pissed.

The Cleveland Indians need to get better. They have a ton of money coming off the books next year. They have a core group of guys that are not due an extension for the next couple of years, when Hanley would come off the books.

You can pay for half of Hanley by not picking up the Visa Cheats option next year.

[rebelwithoutaclue]

On Hanley:


Yes, because once a baseball player is down, he's never up again. Please tell that to Adam Dunn.


He's a 28-year old guy who was formerly in the discussion of "best player in the game". Anybody that doesn't take a chance on that guy is fucking nuts.

[skatingtripods]

There has not been a reasoned argument yet.

You're beyond hope.

There have been tons of reasons. They include: he's hitting .240, he'd make 25% of the payroll, he wouldn't want to play in Cleveland, and he's a clubhouse cancer.

Guy isn't that fucking good anymore. Better than what we have or not, he's not 14 million dollars better than what we have. Not at his current production level. I see no reason it would change by changing leagues and coming to Cleveland where he wouldn't enjoy playing the game.

Pseudo pennant race or not.

If the light comes on for Hanley, yippee. Maybe it's because he's in a real pennant race in LA and in a desirable location.

-----
Who would you rather have Pup?
(stats last two years)
Player A: .245/.329/.407/.736 ($26M) (31.5M more guaranteed)
Player B: .278/.367/.414/.781 ($5.8M) (1 more year of arb)




Chase Headley is also a hell of a lot better than Jack Hannahan, with a manageable salary and is a switch hitter with no discernible difference in numbers between sides of the plate. He can also play LF. This year, he's batting 18 points higher with an OBP that's 34 points higher than Ramirez, with a SLG nearly identical. By the way, half of those numbers are in San Diego.

Or does he suck because he's not a big name with a ridiculous contract?

[rebelwithoutaclue]

Trading for Hanley was a risk, definitely. But he's ultra-talented, and he was available for next to nothing. Fans bitch about the Indians not having talent and not taking chances/making moves and it just so happens that a talented albeit risky guy (at a position of dire need) becomes available and the Indians sit on their thumbs.


Take a fucking chance because the same old shit ain't getting it done. This is pup's point.

[skatingtripods]

Take a fucking chance because the same old shit ain't getting it done. This is pup's point.

We took a chance.

It pitches erratically every five days.

Look, I'm fine with taking chances. To me, Hanley's not the one to take a chance on. Again, nobody has been able to give me any reason to believe that he'd come here and play like he cared. If he was manageable in the clubhouse when times were tough and wouldn't demand a trade the second things went south, sure, try to acquire Hanley in hopes that he gets back to his old self.

Why that would happen with a change of leagues, I don't know.

I'd much rather go after somebody who may be struggling, but is going to play hard regardless of where he's playing. Wanting to play and having the work ethic to play are two big factors when you're talking about a guy who had tons of previous success and has fallen off the map. I don't see him being that guy in Cleveland.

That's my point. Which pup can't seem to grasp.

[pup]

There has not been a reasoned argument yet.

You're beyond hope.

There have been tons of reasons. They include: he's hitting .240, he'd make 25% of the payroll, he wouldn't want to play in Cleveland, and he's a clubhouse cancer.

Screw .240. What will he hit from this point forward is the only thing that matters. I think it will be much higher, with better power numbers to boot. How in the world do you know if Hanley would want to play in Cleveland or not? You act like this place is the plaque to professional athletes because one jackass picked up and left without it being about $. You know what is cancerous in a clubhouse? A bunch of players that can see they are going to a gun fight with chopsticks.

Guy isn't that fucking good anymore. Better than what we have or not, he's not 14 million dollars better than what we have. Not at his current production level. I see no reason it would change by changing leagues and coming to Cleveland where he wouldn't enjoy playing the game.

Pseudo pennant race or not.

Based on 3 months and an injury plaqued season, he is no good anymore. A lot like that Youkilis guy is no good anymore, right? Atmosphere counts for these guys and the one they both left were toxic. Please define what you consider a pennant race if we are not in one.

If the light comes on for Hanley, yippee. Maybe it's because he's in a real pennant race in LA and in a desirable location.

A desirable location that is a huge pitcher's park. But they are apparently in a real pennant race, so that changes things? Go ask Lord Shapiro is they are in a pennant race in Cleveland.
-----

Who would you rather have Pup?
(stats last two years)
Player A: .245/.329/.407/.736 ($26M) (31.5M more guaranteed)
Player B: .278/.367/.414/.781 ($5.8M) (1 more year of arb)




Chase Headley is also a hell of a lot better than Jack Hannahan, with a manageable salary and is a switch hitter with no discernible difference in numbers between sides of the plate. He can also play LF. This year, he's batting 18 points higher with an OBP that's 34 points higher than Ramirez, with a SLG nearly identical. By the way, half of those numbers are in San Diego.

Or does he suck because he's not a big name with a ridiculous contract?

OK. Go get Chase. But you better bet the cost and opportunity to get him are vastly different than what it just took to get Hanley. So you save money, but pay higher in prospects. Whatever. Go get it done! The problem is not getting either one.

You seriously think this is some sort of infatuation I have with his name? Christ. I don't care if we go get Ted Bundy to man the hot corner. As long as he produces better than what they currently have there.

[skatingtripods]

Hanley Ramirez on inside fastballs:



Lack of bat speed. Who's to say Hanley's will ever come back?

I just don't believe Hanley would care here. I don't think he'd like Cleveland. I have no evidence to back that up, you're right, but you also have no evidence to refute it. You gave me a bullshit reason about this supposed pennant race you think we're in. We're 4 games back because the Tigers sucked for two months, not because we're a good team. When it's a matter of opinion, like it is, nobody can be proven right, especially since it won't happen. We'll just keep going around and around.

I think Eovaldi has more value left than people think. I could be wrong, but I don't see where we have an expendable Eovaldi to trade. I believe he's a middle of the rotation guy in the next couple of years. We don't have that readily available, unless you think Gomez can be one. I don't.


Re: Headley, yeah, the prospect cost is a lot higher, but it will give the Indians more flexibility than Hanley would. Hanley won't play SS here and he's a below average 3B. Headley's salary + positional flexibility would give the Indians more options next offseason.

Problem is, there's a bidding war for his services that the Indians will probably lose.

[Prosecutor]

Trading for Hanley was a risk, definitely. But he's ultra-talented, and he was available for next to nothing.

He's due $38.5 million. For the Yankees, that may be next to nothing, but for the Tribe, it's a huge commitment.

After getting burned on the Kerry Wood, Jake Westbrook, and Travis Hafner deals, they're simply not going to gamble that kind of money on a clubhouse cancer with declining numbers.

They have nobody to play left field next year unless you're a big Duncan or Damon fan, or unless you think LaPorta is suddenly going to "get it". They have nobody at first base unless you're a Kotchman fan. They have nobody to DH unless you like Hafner's .229 with 27 RBI's in late July. And they'll have to trade Choo at some point or get nothing back when he walks.

They need the $38 million to fill gaping holes. Of which third base is not one.

I wouldn't take on that contract in the hope that he'll get motivated and get hot and lead this team to the playoffs this year. This is a .500 team, period. We're almost 100 games in. This is not a playoff team even if Ramirez finishes strong.

[rebelwithoutaclue]

They have nobody to play left field next year unless you're a big Duncan or Damon fan, or unless you think LaPorta is suddenly going to "get it". They have nobody at first base unless you're a Kotchman fan. They have nobody to DH unless you like Hafner's .229 with 27 RBI's in late July. And they'll have to trade Choo at some point or get nothing back when he walks.

Newsflash: They didn't have anybody for those positions this year and they pulled off their annual "scrape the bottom of the barrel" strategy to perfection. Next year will be more of the same. To expect anything more is pure delusion.


It's not my money, I don't give a shit. The front office said they'd spend when they're contending, well they were contending and haven't done anything. I'd rather spend $15 million per on the chance Hanley Ramirez regains his talent then the same amount of money on 3 Grady Sizemore's or 7 Johnny Damon/Casey Kotchman's.


If Ramirez doesn't work, guess what? They still suck but at least they tried.

[Larvell Blanks]

They need the $38 million to fill gaping holes. Of which third base is not one.

[pup]

I ran into that graph yesterday (for being a non-stats guy, i do like the work being done with these types of graphs) and it is food for thought. I didn't see where they went into further explanation about number of ABs and counts those pitches were thrown and all of the other stuff that should be taken into account. A bum shoulder can certainly lead to struggling on the inside fastball, so that could be part of it. Also, that is a pretty wide range of .250-.350 being represented by only 2 colors. It could mean he hit .301 in previous years and .299 this year if you know nothing else about it.

Like I said. I am looking for an upgrade. If we can land Chase, do it. 3B is a huge hole (maybe not as big as LF, but huge none the less) and improving that spot could go a long way to making us viable. And arm would certainly help as well. But like you admit, the odds of landing Headley are remote at this point...which means 3 options to upgrade a hole will have come and passed and we still have Jack at third. If an option presents itself for LF, OK, do it. 1B? Sure thing.

But if we are going to not improve at the deadline, we sure as hell should be selling. Otherwise, we are going to be in purgatory for the rest of our window.