Moderators: peeker643, swerb, pup, paulcousineau
by gotribe31 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:07 pm
by Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:21 pm
by leadpipe » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:32 pm
by Bigfist » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:45 pm
by skatingtripods » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:54 pm
by peeker643 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:01 pm
skatingtripods wrote:I'm just disappointed that he didn't fire one into the Rockies dugout at Jim Tracy's head for making him go out and pitch on the night he was traded last year.
by Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:03 pm
by peeker643 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:08 pm
by Adverb Harry » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:37 pm
by justmebd » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:57 pm
by Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:17 pm
by skatingtripods » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:23 pm
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Was what MPH was his fastball hitting during his all star year?
by peeker643 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:23 pm
by e0y2e3 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:53 am
by ChoccoIndians » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:25 am
by gotribe31 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:13 am
by pup » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:38 am
gotribe31 wrote:Velocity doesn't mean nearly as much to me as stuff. The reason he was so unhittable that year wasn't that he was throwing 2 lousy MPH harder, it was because his 2-seamer had late, nasty movement. He starter throwing more 4-seamers last year, and the pitch is much straighter and easier to hit.He (and everyone else) needs to ignore the damn radar gun and focus on making the right pitch to the right spot, regardless of how fast it is. If you're going to look at PitchFX, use the horizontal movement decrease as the reason for his ineffectiveness, not the velocity decrease.
by leadpipe » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:42 am
by peeker643 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:24 am
by gotribe31 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:49 am
by andrew6586 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:00 pm
by pup » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:19 pm
gotribe31 wrote:In 2009 his FB avg was 96.0. In 2011 it was 93.9. In 2009 his FB horizontal movement averaged 6.6. In 2011 it was 4.5.If you want to argue that it was the 2.1 MPH that made the difference, fine. But stop throwing around numbers like "97 to 91," because that isn't what we're talking about. Personally, I'd rather see the movement go back up to what it was than the velocity. He can be an effective pitcher with good movement and a velo drop. He cannot be an effective pitcher with better velo and no movement. ML hitters are not shitting themselves with fear over a straight as an arrow 96 MPH fastball. I don't think any of us know what is actually wrong with him, whether it is purely physical, mental, or a combination of both. We can all agree that he's not the same pitcher he was in the first half of 2010. Pup, I agree that the velo drop has caused him to throw more 4-seamers which in turn makes his fastball move less. I'm just saying that if his velo is down anyway, he might as well keep throwing his 2-seamer because he clearly isn't blowing the 4-seamer by everyone.
by skatingtripods » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:35 pm
peeker643 wrote:Justify all day boys, but it looks like one front office got played like a guitar in this deal. And it wasn't Dan O'Dowd's.
by Adverb Harry » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:24 pm
by Bigfist » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:51 pm
by skatingtripods » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:16 pm
Adverb Harry wrote:However, Ubaldo wasn't pitching well--not for over a year. That's way enough of a sample size to have given the Tribe concern and wonder if he was worth our top two prospects, extremely valuable commodities on the trade market. However, it doesn't matter what they become--they could both get run over by the team bus tomorrow--that will not change the value they had last year at the trading deadline, value that is now gone. Gambling them away on a downward-trending head case was not a good investment. An impact bat (how nice would that be?) or another top arm who didn't come with so many question marks would have been much wiser.
Again, I'm hoping and rooting for this guy to turn it around. He has to, or we're screwed. There's still lots of time for him to improve, and I'm hoping the coaches and other front office guys figure out the secret. But geez...it wasn't a smart move at all. When you go all in on a guy, you have to be dead certain he's THE guy, and there's no way they could have been sure he was anything more than an expensive reclamation project. (And if they didn't see him that way, there's really a problem in the front office.)
by peeker643 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:58 pm
skatingtripods wrote:peeker643 wrote:Justify all day boys, but it looks like one front office got played like a guitar in this deal. And it wasn't Dan O'Dowd's.Ridiculous to say that after less than half a season and one Spring Training.Alex White's already been shunned to the bullpen and got lit up like Clark Griswold's house during his couple months in Colorado last year.Pomeranz made the rotation, but he's still a question mark at the big league level. Still lacks a third pitch. Not many starters make a living off two pitches.I'm willing to give Jimenez some time. He got hurt last Spring and it affected him all year. How do we know that he's not just holding back? I'll ignore the shit with Colorado. It got overblown based on comments that both guys made and Ubaldo hit Tulo. Whatever. It's not like we face them this season.Does it show some immaturity and selfishness? It does. But, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for a few months. It's unfair to judge him after two months and a Spring Training. Pretty big life change leaving the Rockies org. New team, injuries, trying too hard to perform at his 2010 level and putting pressure on himself. He clearly doesn't handle his emotions well.April's big. If he starts well, he could be a very good #2. If he doesn't, the snowball could keep rolling.But it's really impossible to call this trade a win for Colorado until White and Pomeranz actually do something other than being highly touted names.
by Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:05 pm
by motherscratcher » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:19 pm
by Bigfist » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:56 pm
by pup » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:03 am
Bigfist wrote:Obviously, Tracy's comments were ridiculous..there have been far worse intentional beanings in the history of baseball. But just as ridiculous were Jimenez's comments that the beaning was unintentional. I believe the suspension of five games is appropriate and neither too harsh nor too light.
by Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:42 am
leadpipe wrote:Hopefully he's suspended until he can get out of the low nineties.
by Kingpin74 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:00 pm
by skatingtripods » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:47 pm
Kingpin74 wrote:White and Pomeranz may not pan out but I think it needs to be judged by what their value was last year. Couldn't we have acquired a Gio Gonzalez type in the offseason if we dangled those two? I'd much rather have him than Ubaldo at this point, and I think he's under club control for longer. After seeing what we got in return for Cliff Lee, I have to think that we could have had a Rolls Royce starting pitcher if we were patient enough, not one with giant question marks from the get go. I know the Ubaldo deal had some buzz and was instant gratification, but we were already fading and very injured in last year's pennant race when the deal was made.
Return to Cleveland Indians & MLB
Users browsing this forum: gbot and 4 guests