Prince Fielder to the Tigers

[gameface]

If the Tigers are fucked at all, it's because they might get Philadelphia Eagles syndrome. Unlike the Eagles though, they'll have 162 games to get squared up.

But I wouldn't go to ledge and hand them the division trophy just yet. For the same 162 game reason. Lots of things can happen, paper champions still got to play the schedule. And arms and knees are fragile things.

Even the Bankees don't get an automatic playoff invite in January. You just know Rodiriguez is due for a case of STDs.

Heh heh, it'll probably be the Royals' year.

[CP]

Tigers are a major Verlander injury away from only winning the division by 15 games.

[redneckofsc]

.300/.353/.457 18HR 82RBI, Silver Slugger, Gold Glove and All Star

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I don't know....none of the Cleveland owners appear to be worth a pound of piss.

[redneckofsc]

[gotribe31]

This. Is. AWESOME.

Library worthy now.

Epic. Saw this coming. Not quite at this level, but knew we'd get there.

[bookelly]

Ok...I'll bite. The do have some serious defensive issues. With Victor healthy, you have three DH'es. Even with V-Mart out, one of these guys has to play 1B. I for one would like to see these fat fucks run the wheel play. Imagine all the hit and run possibilities. Imagine all the bunt possibilities. Peralta ain't exactly Omar at short. Eric Patterson at 2nd? Does Inge still have a job at 3rd? Do you sub Don Kelly in the 6th for defense? Avila can hit, but he's average at best behind the dish.

Austin Jackson is the shit, but the other guys in the OF are nothing. This team ranked 24th defensively last year, expect them to get worse not better.

Any team with speed is gonna kill these guys.


----

Please excuse my interruption of the pissing contest that this thread has become. Please feel free to resume. Another page of posts and I'll have to do this thread in emoticons.

[rigs]

I love the opinions regarding "defensive range" as the way we are going to make up 15 games in the division. Here are the facts: We finished 15 games behind the Tigers, and lost I believe our last 9-10 head to head games. We got smoked at the trade deadline, adding Ubaldo vs. Fister and Delmon Young (how would he look here, for basically nothing?). And finally, added Derek Lowe vs. Prince Fielder this offseason.

These are facts. Swerb, give me a plausible vegas odds scenario of the Indians (with the aforementioned facts) winning the division?

Finally, explain to me a reason (besides not wanting to go through it) why starting over RIGHT NOW is not the best course of action. The Lee/Sabathia returns and not locking up any key players past 2013 have made this "window" (which most likely won't produce a .500 team within it) irrelevant.

Try it again...now with Ubaldo, Choo, Asdrubal, and probably Masterson- as he walks after 2014.

[leadpipe]

Ok...I'll bite. The do have some serious defensive issues. With Victor healthy, you have three DH'es. Even with V-Mart out, one of these guys has to play 1B. I for one would like to see these fat fucks run the wheel play. Imagine all the hit and run possibilities. Imagine all the bunt possibilities. Peralta ain't exactly Omar at short. Eric Patterson at 2nd? Does Inge still have a job at 3rd? Do you sub Don Kelly in the 6th for defense? Avila can hit, but he's average at best behind the dish.

Austin Jackson is the shit, but the other guys in the OF are nothing. This team ranked 24th defensively last year, expect them to get worse not better.

Any team with speed is gonna kill these guys.


----

Please excuse my interruption of the pissing contest that this thread has become. Please feel free to resume. Another page of posts and I'll have to do this thread in emoticons.

Aaaaaaand there it is.

You could set your watch.

Tigers throwin out a potential MVP at each corner and the Tribe has Jack Hanahan and Matt LaPorta.

And a team with speed is gonna kill em'. Especially with the ole' "wheel" play. It seems like all the championship teams were experts at the wheel play.

It seems like all you gotta do is bunt your way to 9 runs a game, and you should be in good shape.

Hope they think of that.

[redneckofsc]

Look at the bright side, 5 years ago, we all thought Sizemore would be a Yankee by now.

[WiscTribeFan]

I still think this needs an authentic Dave rant including Blob Dickman to make this epic.

[redneckofsc]

[Spin]

One perspective to bring to this is

RESOLVED: An owner of a small-market baseball team should neither (1) treat it as an investment property, nor (2) expect it to generate a profit. An owner of a small-market baseball team should be a gajillionaire whose object is to spend down his vastly accumulated wealth in pursuit of championships and the storebought love of his fan base.

Someone explain to me why a player of PC's caliber wouldn't be an investment.

Wasn't this the franchise that sold out every game before Christmas for several straight years? We drew 22,726 last year, the Jake holds 43,441. That's almost doubling your gate. And that 22,7 includes those sellouts for the return of Thome.

STO revenue goes up. Jersey sales multiply. You can jack up your radio price. WTF am I missing?

We'd rather play Moneyball with the wrong evaluators, and wind up looking a lot more like the A's than the Rays.

[gotribe31]

I love the opinions regarding "defensive range" as the way we are going to make up 15 games in the division. Here are the facts: We finished 15 games behind the Tigers, and lost I believe our last 9-10 head to head games. We got smoked at the trade deadline, adding Ubaldo vs. Fister and Delmon Young (how would he look here, for basically nothing?). And finally, added Derek Lowe vs. Prince Fielder this offseason.

These are facts. Swerb, give me a plausible vegas odds scenario of the Indians (with the aforementioned facts) winning the division?

Finally, explain to me a reason (besides not wanting to go through it) why starting over RIGHT NOW is not the best course of action. The Lee/Sabathia returns and not locking up any key players past 2013 have made this "window" (which most likely won't produce a .500 team within it) irrelevant.

Try it again...now with Ubaldo, Choo, Asdrubal, and probably Masterson- as he walks after 2014.

Of all the points in this thread, pining over Delmon Young and his .268/.302/.393 line from last year may be one of the worst. The guy has had an OPS over .741 a grand total of ONCE in his career. He's hit over 13 HR once. Both in the same season, where he set career highs of .826 and 21, respectively. He's an indifferent defender at best, and can't play anywhere besides LF. If he were on the Indians, people would have him in the same class as Matt LaPorta, a guy with promise as a prospect who has yet to deliver in the show. And he's set to make almost $7 million in 2012. Oh, and he's a problem in the clubhouse. There's a reason that he's been traded by two organizations who are lauded for doing things the right way (Minny and Tampa Bay). But yeah, lets cry about not getting Delmon Young at the trade deadline and "only" Ubaldo Jiminez.

[skatingtripods]

But yeah, lets cry about not getting Delmon Young at the trade deadline and "only" Ubaldo Jiminez.

At least Fister v. Jimenez would have been a decent point to make. Delmon Young sucks and had a fluke second half. No way he can sustain that for an entire year.

The Tigers do have defensive issues, there's no question. But, they're going to outhit most of them.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

Look at the bright side, 5 years ago, we all thought Sizemore would be a Yankee by now.

[redneckofsc]

We signed infielder Ryan Rolingardner today to a minor league deal. I guess that is our counter move.

[bookelly]

Ok...I'll bite. The do have some serious defensive issues. With Victor healthy, you have three DH'es. Even with V-Mart out, one of these guys has to play 1B. I for one would like to see these fat fucks run the wheel play. Imagine all the hit and run possibilities. Imagine all the bunt possibilities. Peralta ain't exactly Omar at short. Eric Patterson at 2nd? Does Inge still have a job at 3rd? Do you sub Don Kelly in the 6th for defense? Avila can hit, but he's average at best behind the dish.

Austin Jackson is the shit, but the other guys in the OF are nothing. This team ranked 24th defensively last year, expect them to get worse not better.

Any team with speed is gonna kill these guys.


----

Please excuse my interruption of the pissing contest that this thread has become. Please feel free to resume. Another page of posts and I'll have to do this thread in emoticons.

Aaaaaaand there it is.

You could set your watch.

Tigers throwin out a potential MVP at each corner and the Tribe has Jack Hanahan and Matt LaPorta.

And a team with speed is gonna kill em'. Especially with the ole' "wheel" play. It seems like all the championship teams were experts at the wheel play.

It seems like all you gotta do is bunt your way to 9 runs a game, and you should be in good shape.

Hope they think of that.

That's not what I said. But don't let that stop you.

Mine as well "Crown 'em." We shouldn't even play the games.

[leadpipe]

Ok...I'll bite. The do have some serious defensive issues. With Victor healthy, you have three DH'es. Even with V-Mart out, one of these guys has to play 1B. I for one would like to see these fat fucks run the wheel play. Imagine all the hit and run possibilities. Imagine all the bunt possibilities. Peralta ain't exactly Omar at short. Eric Patterson at 2nd? Does Inge still have a job at 3rd? Do you sub Don Kelly in the 6th for defense? Avila can hit, but he's average at best behind the dish.

Austin Jackson is the shit, but the other guys in the OF are nothing. This team ranked 24th defensively last year, expect them to get worse not better.

Any team with speed is gonna kill these guys.


----

Please excuse my interruption of the pissing contest that this thread has become. Please feel free to resume. Another page of posts and I'll have to do this thread in emoticons.

Aaaaaaand there it is.

You could set your watch.

Tigers throwin out a potential MVP at each corner and the Tribe has Jack Hanahan and Matt LaPorta.

And a team with speed is gonna kill em'. Especially with the ole' "wheel" play. It seems like all the championship teams were experts at the wheel play.

It seems like all you gotta do is bunt your way to 9 runs a game, and you should be in good shape.

Hope they think of that.

That's not what I said. But don't let that stop you.

Mine as well "Crown 'em." We shouldn't even play the games.

No, it's pretty much what you said, some of it exact - to be exact.

And you do realize that one of those "fat fucks" already plyed more 1st base for them than V Mart ever did. Did you miss Cabrera's 150 games there last year? Didn't seem to hurt them much.

Now in regard to saying what wasn't said, never mentioned crowning them - just inferring that instead of recognizing the value of having two MVP candidates that don't miss games on each corner, that someone would be exaggerating the effect their defense might have on the team, and somehow thinking that it would overshadow the overwhelming offensive advantage.

You know, like you pretty much did.

[bookelly]

Meh. You win. I'd rather have Fielder and Cabrera too. Just trying to polish a turd.

[RickNashEquilibrium]

I have hope like Boo does, but damn I look at the Detroit line-up and I see 90+ win team Verlander or no Verlander. With Fielder aboard, Avila and Boesch are going to see a lot more good pitches as will Austin Jackson. That guy is a human windmill with Grady -eqsue patience at the plate but hes still solid in the OF and could be a 20/20 with 200+ hits guy if he can get over his sophomore slump.

[rigs]

Delmon Young would have fit in just fine here compared to the lame minor league deals. One year at $7m million for him is not a bad deal at all. Just a bad deal here for our ownership group.

Tripods, anyone in our "range", whether in terms of prospects/money, will have some warts. You guys throw a Delmon Young under the bus. But in terms of cost, years, being right handed, and players needed to acquire- it wouldn't have been a bad deal.

Give me some alternatives then? Remember the rules...can't be longer than a one year deal. Can't give up anyone good. Can't make a lot of money.

[skatingtripods]

Delmon Young would have fit in just fine here compared to the lame minor league deals. One year at $7m million for him is not a bad deal at all. Just a bad deal here for our ownership group.

Tripods, anyone in our "range", whether in terms of prospects/money, will have some warts. You guys throw a Delmon Young under the bus. But in terms of cost, years, being right handed, and players needed to acquire- it wouldn't have been a bad deal.

Give me some alternatives then? Remember the rules...can't be longer than a one year deal. Can't give up anyone good. Can't make a lot of money.

Al already nailed it down. One good season, over 13 HR once, clubhouse cancer. Matt LaPorta, if he were capable of running around LF, would be a better option. Just as much, if not more, power production at a cheaper price.

Jason Donald. Jason Donald might not have a whole lot of pop, but you'll get a similar, maybe higher, average and OBP from him. Plus, he's willing to play any position and not be an asshole. I think he's capable of playing just as good of a LF as Delmon Young. Time will tell, but Acta's going to find places to play that kid this year, if he stays healthy.

In terms of guys who are still available, Kosuke Fukudome is still sitting out there. Nobody's talking about him. Another left handed bat, but at this point, I just want guys who could improve the lineup. Not sure we really have a spot for him, though.

Probably wind up with Casey Kotchman at 1B and that'll be it for the offseason. Maybe another pitcher, since Slowey has an option left.

I think Donald can match/surpass Delmon Young's statline this year, since that's the question you asked.

[Pressrunnr]

I don't think there's any way Cabrera plays third whatever anyone's saying now. But with he and Prince rotating between 1B and DH, they could bring Aurelio Rodriguez back from the rest home to play third and it would still be a gain for them. They don't have to deal with Victor until he comes back, at which point who knows what their situation will be. Perhaps one of the two behemoths will be injured; or maybe they lose a starter, or perish the thought Jhonny regresses and they need to trade for a shortstop. Oe who knows, maybe Tribe could trade the artist formerly known as Fausto for Victor (to settle 1B once and for all) in a deal of guys both teams will have to wait on.

[motherscratcher]

Holy shit, did I just read that Delmon Young at $7 mil is a good deal?

Fuck Delmon Young. He has a proven track record and it sucks.

And i like Fister. But second half Fister from last year is not likely to return. Doesn't mean I wouldn't want him on my staff (lol). But dont expect another Cy Young Level performance, unless he spends the offseason eating whatever the hell Cliff Lee ate a few off seasons back that magically made him into RoboLee.

And Miggy IS too fucking fat to field 3rd base. Hannahan can field 3rd with his hat while wearing an eyepatch better than Miggy. This is the truth. Will it cost them games? Not many (if any) and certainly not enough to override his incredible bat.

I don't think I read anyone post how Miggys defense at 3rd is going to help the Tribe make up 15 games on Detroit. But mention his staggering drunken defense and you are saying that you'd rather have Andy Marte on the hot corner.

[redneckofsc]

Maybe a platoon of Jack Hannahan and Chisenhall can give us Cabrera type numbers like the platoon of Jason Michaels and David Delluci gave us Carlos Lee type numbers

[LakeErieWarriors]

Don't they still have Brandon Inge?? Why wouldn't they put him at third and DH on of the 2 fatties?

[redneckofsc]

Don't they still have Brandon Inge?? Why wouldn't they put him at third and DH on of the 2 fatties?

I am wondering if that is the actual plan, but they are saying Cabrera to 3rd to leave DH open for VMart (I am assuming he is out all of next year), but eventually one of the three is going to have to find a new position.

[LakeErieWarriors]

^^^^^Makes sense I guess. Nine years is a long time. Why say what they're gonna do next year when they have a long time ahead of them. But yea, I don't think there's much chance that VMart plays 1 game next yr

[exiledbuckeye]

Don't they still have Brandon Inge?? Why wouldn't they put him at third and DH on of the 2 fatties?

Because Delmon Young is the worst. He is so terrible in the field that he is slated to DH. Think about it: he's so bad that they're planning to make Fat Miguel play 3rd base.

[redneckofsc]

Cabrera is signed through 2015, Fielder 2020 and VMart 2014. I see no way Cabrera can stick at 3B for 2013 and 2014.

[gotribe31]

Cabrera is signed through 2015, Fielder 2020 and VMart 2014. I see no way Cabrera can stick at 3B for 2013 and 2014.

Cabrera won't be at 3B for that team in May of 2012. If they even try it in April, he'll be a DH after a couple of weeks. Remember, they tried him at 3B when they initially signed him only to have him fail miserably and go across the diamond to 1B, and that was 2 years, 20 lbs and 645 bottles of scotch ago.

[exiledbuckeye]

Cabrera is signed through 2015, Fielder 2020 and VMart 2014. I see no way Cabrera can stick at 3B for 2013 and 2014.

Cabrera won't be at 3B for that team in May of 2012. If they even try it in April, he'll be a DH after a couple of weeks. Remember, they tried him at 3B when they initially signed him only to have him fail miserably and go across the diamond to 1B, and that was 2 years, 20 lbs and 645 bottles of scotch ago.

The funny thing is that the Detroit newspapers are claiming that Fat Miguel moved to 1B from 3rd because Carlos Guillen was playing 1st at the beginning of 2008 and he was "so terrible". He was just doing the Tigers a favor!

By all accounts the plan to play Cabrera at 3rd is to appease him (he claimed to want to play 40 games there this year, before they signed Fielder). They'll move him to DH fairly quickly, I would think. Some people are predicting a move to LF...

[WiscTribeFan]

Early in his career he played both left and right field for the Marlins. Problem is that he's now 6 years older and probably 40lbs heavier.

[phutatorius]

Let us not give ourselves over to infighting and f-bombing about Dan Gilbert. Let us not become overly distracted by the comical prospect of Miguel Cabrera manhandling the Hot Corner.

Our attentions must not be diverted from our project, which as I have conceived it is twofold: viz. (1) to break the Dolans' feckless sovereignty over the Ball Club We All Hold Dear, and (2) to see our Beloved Franchise delivered from their fat, fumbling hands into the care and custody of a billionaire sugar daddy. Be he a Russian oligarch with blood on his hands, a corrupt Saudi prince, or the kleptocratic refugee President of an Arab Spring state, we must find this man (or woman, as it may) to lead us from the Dolan Doldrums into the promised land of a nine-figure payroll.

"How will we accomplish this?" you will ask, and I would have detected your cynicism even if you had not appended that dancing, taunting emoticon of yours.

And I will answer you frankly with "I don't have the first frickin' clue." I of course have ideas, but I have no pride of ownership, either, and so it seems to me appropriate to call upon you all to submit your own proposals on this score. For my part, a social media campaign of some sort -- and more than this, a slogan, a series of bumper stickers, a constant stream of reckless Dadaist gestures of disapprobation and defiance at public events (of which I am aware some 81 are scheduled to occur this year at Jacobs -- and yes, I said Jacobs -- Field) -- all these things seem appropriate. Will it work? Dunno. Could be I'm all hat and no cattle, and we may have to try something else.

But no matter, the longest journey begins with a single step, and history shows us that the most powerful political movements have their source in a handful of men and women coming together and disclosing to one another that they, for their part, can see no other livable path before them than

Revolution.

Yes, it is beleaguerment that galvanizes us, it is the identification of a common oppressor that marks the first discernible step toward empowerment. The great world-changing political movements are not founded on love, I am sorry to say, but on shared outrage.

The petty particulars can and will divide us later, and we can decide then whether we will permit them to fracture our resolve into something like post-Soviet Russia; whether we will see one faction prevail and run roughshod over all others, as precipitated the Reign of Terror or Stalin's ascendance; or whether we will largely overcome them, as our Founding Fathers did. But for now -- again -- let us not be divided. Let us not be distracted.

Let us turn our divers and considerable talents toward the Dolans' ouster. Because, then -- and only then -- will we acquire a sense of the Possible that will lead to true Progress.

[leadpipe]

Miguel Cabrera, using the base for a pillow, would be a better option than anyone the Tribe has had at third since.........?????

Look, he'll either be tolerable, or a disaster. But as much as you claim you know he'll be a disaster, or hope he'll be a disaster, well, that's not really gonna matter much, cause they'll have the ability to take care of it.

I don't know about you, but I'd like to have the "problem" of trying to get VMART, Miggy and Prince in the same line-up.....no, wait, no, I think I'd rather be in the position to see if Jack Hanahan will be hitting his weight in June.

And all the fat, drunk Miggy jokes....Christ, the guys only the best right handed hitter save Pujols in who knows how long, especially considering he's played his entire career in shitty places to hit. Not to mention, the guys twenty friggin' eight. Just about to cruise thru his prime years. Point is, throw him out there ANYWHERE and you're still waaay ahead of the game.

Gotta get guys that can PLAY, not clowns like Fukodome that your goal is to "get a decent OBP" from.

Fielda, Miggy, VMart = PLAYAS = Wins

[e0y2e3]

Miggy, Manny and Pujols....

[motherscratcher]

Miguel Cabrera, using the base for a pillow, would be a better option than anyone the Tribe has had at third since.........?????

Look, he'll either be tolerable, or a disaster. But as much as you claim you know he'll be a disaster, or hope he'll be a disaster, well, that's not really gonna matter much, cause they'll have the ability to take care of it.

I don't know about you, but I'd like to have the "problem" of trying to get VMART, Miggy and Prince in the same line-up.....no, wait, no, I think I'd rather be in the position to see if Jack Hanahan will be hitting his weight in June.

And all the fat, drunk Miggy jokes....Christ, the guys only the best right handed hitter save Pujols in who knows how long, especially considering he's played his entire career in shitty places to hit. Not to mention, the guys twenty friggin' eight. Just about to cruise thru his prime years. Point is, throw him out there ANYWHERE and you're still waaay ahead of the game.

Gotta get guys that can PLAY, not clowns like Fukodome that your goal is to "get a decent OBP" from.

Fielda, Miggy, VMart = PLAYAS = Wins

And I hope you don't think I'm saying otherwise. Of course I'd love the dynamic fat fuckin duo that is going to combine to hit the ball farther than Wilt Chamberlain's conquests lain in a line head to toe. Of course I would. They're going to destroy the ball. But saying fat drunk Miggy manning the hot corner will be an adventure and Detroit's defense will be less than stellar DOES NOT EQUATE to saying I'd rather roll the dice with Hannahan and Matola. That's ridiculous. I'm with you. Completely.

It doesn't matter much. And probably not at all as far as end results in the central are concerned. But it is a thing.

...especially considering he's played his entire career in shitty places to hit.

Oh OK, so now home field stats matter

[leadpipe]

Miguel Cabrera, using the base for a pillow, would be a better option than anyone the Tribe has had at third since.........?????

Look, he'll either be tolerable, or a disaster. But as much as you claim you know he'll be a disaster, or hope he'll be a disaster, well, that's not really gonna matter much, cause they'll have the ability to take care of it.

I don't know about you, but I'd like to have the "problem" of trying to get VMART, Miggy and Prince in the same line-up.....no, wait, no, I think I'd rather be in the position to see if Jack Hanahan will be hitting his weight in June.

And all the fat, drunk Miggy jokes....Christ, the guys only the best right handed hitter save Pujols in who knows how long, especially considering he's played his entire career in shitty places to hit. Not to mention, the guys twenty friggin' eight. Just about to cruise thru his prime years. Point is, throw him out there ANYWHERE and you're still waaay ahead of the game.

Gotta get guys that can PLAY, not clowns like Fukodome that your goal is to "get a decent OBP" from.

Fielda, Miggy, VMart = PLAYAS = Wins

And I hope you don't think I'm saying otherwise. Of course I'd love the dynamic fat fuckin duo that is going to combine to hit the ball farther than Wilt Chamberlain's conquests lain in a line head to toe. Of course I would. They're going to destroy the ball. But saying fat drunk Miggy manning the hot corner will be an adventure and Detroit's defense will be less than stellar DOES NOT EQUATE to saying I'd rather roll the dice with Hannahan and Matola. That's ridiculous. I'm with you. Completely.

It doesn't matter much. And probably not at all as far as end results in the central are concerned. But it is a thing.

...especially considering he's played his entire career in shitty places to hit.

Oh OK, so now home field stats matter

All I'm sayin' is the Tigers are in better shape no matter what happens. He's a disaster, they plug in Inge. Defensive problem at third solved.
The Tribe has a guy worse than a struggling Brandon Inge starting at that position. And they have for several years, incidentally.

My overall issue was with people that were gonna overeact to the defensive issue, cause they gotta find something wrong with every aquisition made by someone in the division. Like clockwork. You know, the same guys that thougth the Fuko trade was gonna really help the Tribe, but aquiring Fielder is gonna hurt the Tigers.....

[motherscratcher]

All I'm sayin' is the Tigers are in better shape no matter what happens. He's a disaster, they plug in Inge. Defensive problem at third solved.
The Tribe has a guy worse than a struggling Brandon Inge starting at that position. And they have for several years, incidentally.

My overall issue was with people that were gonna overeact to the defensive issue, cause they gotta find something wrong with every aquisition made by someone in the division. Like clockwork. You know, the same guys that thougth the Fuko trade was gonna really help the Tribe, but aquiring Fielder is gonna hurt the Tigers.....

I know. I get what you're saying and I'm right there with you (even if I'm not at all convinced that Brandon Inge is better than Jack Hannahan, especially last year.)

This board sure doesn't make it easy either, when you have guys running around saying things about Michael Young owing his career to a hitters park.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

We signed infielder Ryan Rolingardner today to a minor league deal. I guess that is our counter move.

we need this rolingardener

[Indyan]

Revolution.

Viva!

[WiscTribeFan]

I think that Detroit's defense won't potentially be an issue until the playoffs roll around. THey should have a good enough team to put them in position to win the Central with the pitching and the offense that they do have, with the caveat that baseball is often a mystifying game with regards to who actually ends up getting into the playoffs.

A short playoff series, where mistakes can be amplified and the margin for error less, is where having a guy like MC at 3B might eventually cost them a crucial game.