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Tribe/O's 5/6

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Tribe/O's 5/6

Unread postby StewieG » Sun May 06, 2007 1:30 pm

Hopefully we get one back here. With our ace going against some guy I've never heard of, we'd better. If he's a soft-tossing lefty though, we're screwed.

I can't see the game today, because our local Fox station usually shows the WKYC (or whatever) feed, but since neckcar is on, I don't get it.

Offense better come alive today. CANNOT drop 3 to the O's.
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Unread postby StewieG » Sun May 06, 2007 1:45 pm

An auspicious start as no-name strikes out the side in the top of the 1st.
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Unread postby dmcdougal » Sun May 06, 2007 1:49 pm

seriously this offense has no "spunk." It's like they go up there without any idea of what they plan to do. I played competitively for about 10 years and the most important thing about hitting is going up to the plate with a plan and an idea of what you want to do with the ball. Sizemore and Hafner know how teams are going to pitch to them. It's amazing that Sizemore strikes out so much.
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Unread postby dmcdougal » Sun May 06, 2007 1:53 pm

by the way, Tribe called up Gutierrez today and sent Perez back down.
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Unread postby dmcdougal » Sun May 06, 2007 1:59 pm

another horrible base-running decision by the tribe, who seems to lack fundamental skills more than any team in the majors...

In case you missed it, Peralta ran the team into an out after Nixon's RBI single.
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Unread postby dmcdougal » Sun May 06, 2007 3:11 pm

I love the Trot Nixon signing.. He is a great presence on this team. It's nice to see a guy actually get a hit with a runner in scoring position
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Unread postby StewieG » Sun May 06, 2007 3:16 pm

The offense is finally coming around in this game. Several hits with RISP. 8 runs thru 5 so far. Keep it going.
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Unread postby neoleo » Sun May 06, 2007 3:36 pm

It's great to see the big hits in clutch situations today, although I have to say I kept missing them as I flipped back and forth with the Cavs.

Big situation for CC here with bases loaded and 1 out in the 6th.
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Unread postby neoleo » Sun May 06, 2007 3:43 pm

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A beautiful strikeout of Millar on a change piece after a great AB and then an amazing catch in center by Sizemore gets CC and the Tribe out of the jam.
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Unread postby neoleo » Sun May 06, 2007 4:19 pm

dmcdougal wrote:I love the Trot Nixon signing.. He is a great presence on this team. It's nice to see a guy actually get a hit with a runner in scoring position


Nixon's now 5-5 with a double and 4 RBI (the first four hits were off lefties).

Did anybody else notice the guy's eye black today? It seems everybody copied Trot's practice of smearing his eye black down his cheeks. Kind of reminds me of the 97 team coming together and rallying around Thome's socks.
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Unread postby dmcdougal » Sun May 06, 2007 4:23 pm

I haven't seen anything because my school doesn't have the channel but it's very encouraging that he has gone 5-5.. Play of the game (haven't seen it but Tom Hamilton was going crazy on the radio) had to be Sizemore's diving catch on the Corey Patterson liner with the bases loaded.. That would have made it an 8-6 game.
Great job to press through by CC. He gave up some runs early and his defense wasn't great (aside from Sizemore's play) but he really just grinded through and it looks like he'll be 5-0 to start the season. The tribe didn't just give up after the O's scored a few like they did yesterday. Maybe they just needed a day off
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Unread postby neoleo » Sun May 06, 2007 4:32 pm

dmcdougal wrote:Play of the game (haven't seen it but Tom Hamilton was going crazy on the radio) had to be Sizemore's diving catch on the Corey Patterson liner with the bases loaded.. That would have made it an 8-6 game.


Hopefully you get ESPN. Make sure you catch baseball tonight because it was that good. It's a webgem for sure.

By the way, another great catch by Sizemore to get out of the 8th. Looked like Nixon was gonna get it, but after they glanced at each other, Sizemore jumped in the way to make a sliding catch.
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Unread postby dmcdougal » Sun May 06, 2007 4:36 pm

I was just gonna write something.. which was better?

Ironic that both were on Corey Patterson
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Unread postby dmcdougal » Sun May 06, 2007 5:01 pm

could the Yanks game be happening again...
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Unread postby dmcdougal » Sun May 06, 2007 5:03 pm

whew
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Unread postby neoleo » Sun May 06, 2007 5:05 pm

dmcdougal wrote:I was just gonna write something.. which was better?

Ironic that both were on Corey Patterson


The first was better, but if it didn't happen, I would've been on here talking about how good the second one was.
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Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun May 06, 2007 11:03 pm

Sadly, this one got interesting. Ah well, win's a win. If we escape this with a split, I'll be happy. All I wanted is 5-5 on this trip and we can certainly win either series this week. We're not facing Joe Saunders in ANA and we avoid Colon who would probably do well against his former team.

I'm tired of people bitching that we are tied for first with Detroit. Who the hell has Detroit played? What adversity have they faced? Wait until they go to the Bronx. They've played KC, what, ten times already? I'm not worried about it. The head-to-head matchups will determine the division.

Big props to Trot and Grady for showing up to play today when the rest of the team really didn't. Winning ugly again. Wait till we start winning pretty in July and August. We've always been a second half team.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sun May 06, 2007 11:18 pm

Nixon is living up to his "Dirt Dog" name that Red Sox fans gave him.
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Unread postby dmcdougal » Sun May 06, 2007 11:26 pm

I'm still not sold on Detroit. Gary Sheffield was a great addition by the Tigers but I just don't trust their pitching staff. They already lost a big piece of their bullpen (Zumaya) and they have some starters with a lot of question marks (Verlander's durability, Kenny Rogers) and I just don't know if I can trust Maroth or Robertson over the long season.
That being said, they have a dangerous offense that can manufacture runs better than most teams in the majors. I really like Placido Polanco, I think he's an underrated hitter and he has good versatility. Anyway, Cleveland has better starting pitching and the bullpen is a toss-up but I would give a slight edge to Detroit. The only question is which offense can consistently score runs
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Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun May 06, 2007 11:47 pm

dmcdougal wrote:I'm still not sold on Detroit. Gary Sheffield was a great addition by the Tigers but I just don't trust their pitching staff. They already lost a big piece of their bullpen (Zumaya) and they have some starters with a lot of question marks (Verlander's durability, Kenny Rogers) and I just don't know if I can trust Maroth or Robertson over the long season.
That being said, they have a dangerous offense that can manufacture runs better than most teams in the majors. I really like Placido Polanco, I think he's an underrated hitter and he has good versatility. Anyway, Cleveland has better starting pitching and the bullpen is a toss-up but I would give a slight edge to Detroit. The only question is which offense can consistently score runs


I'm not sold on Detroit. They didn't get any better, and potentially got worse. Pudge is a year older and you can see he is slowing down. And for those of you upset about Blake, Inge is batting .160. They're an all-or-nothing offense. Granderson, their leadoff guy, isn't even hitting .260. Granted, neither is Grady, but his OBP is 100 points higher.

The pitching is suspect. Rogers is winding down, and Zumaya plays too much Guitar Hero to stay healthy. Todd Jones has had success this year, but I really can't see him being that solid all year. They have to rely on their soft tossing lefties (Maroth, Robertson, and Rogers) to throw strikes. The Indians hitters, if nothing else, have forced starters to throw a lot of pitches. If their bullpen gets worn out because they can't trust guys like Grilli and Rodney, I think we'll be in good shape in August and September.

The rest of this month, Detroit faces, SEA (3), @ MIN (3), @ BOS (4), STL (3), LAA (3), CLE (3), and @ TB (4). Aside from SEA, those are some really tough matchups. We'll see where they are at the end of this month and then we can judge them. They really haven't had a tough schedule at all yet.

The only real teams they played in April were Chicago and Minnesota and they went 3-3. They also lost 2 of those 3 in the bullpen. They beat up on KC and Baltimore. That's real difficult...
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Unread postby neoleo » Mon May 07, 2007 9:43 am

Skating Tripods wrote: The pitching is suspect. Rogers is winding down, and Zumaya plays too much Guitar Hero to stay healthy. Todd Jones has had success this year, but I really can't see him being that solid all year. They have to rely on their soft tossing lefties (Maroth, Robertson, and Rogers) to throw strikes. The Indians hitters, if nothing else, have forced starters to throw a lot of pitches. If their bullpen gets worn out because they can't trust guys like Grilli and Rodney, I think we'll be in good shape in August and September.

The rest of this month, Detroit faces, SEA (3), @ MIN (3), @ BOS (4), STL (3), LAA (3), CLE (3), and @ TB (4). Aside from SEA, those are some really tough matchups. We'll see where they are at the end of this month and then we can judge them. They really haven't had a tough schedule at all yet.

The only real teams they played in April were Chicago and Minnesota and they went 3-3. They also lost 2 of those 3 in the bullpen. They beat up on KC and Baltimore. That's real difficult...


Dear Skating Tripods, From Detroit Fan.

The pitching is suspect. Byrd is winding down, and Betancourt plays too much Shoot it like Barry to stay healthy. Joe Borowski has had success this year, but I really can't see him being that solid all year. They have to rely on their soft tossing lefties (Sowers, Lee, and Fultz) to throw strikes. The Tigers hitters, if nothing else, are 2nd in the AL in runs, RBI, total bases and slugging. If their bullpen gets worn out because they can't trust guys like Davis and Hernandez, I think we'll be in good shape in August and September.

At the end of this month, Cleveland faces Det and then Bos. We'll see where they are at that time and then we can judge them. They haven't had a tough schedule at all yet, only playing one team over .500.

The only real teams they played in April were Chicago, Minnesota and New York and they went 6-5. They beat up on Texas and Toronto. That's real difficult.
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Unread postby neoleo » Mon May 07, 2007 9:46 am

NEOLeo wrote:Dear Skating Tripods, From Detroit Fan.

The pitching is suspect. Byrd is winding down, and Betancourt plays too much Shoot it like Barry to stay healthy. Joe Borowski has had success this year, but I really can't see him being that solid all year. They have to rely on their soft tossing lefties (Sowers, Lee, and Fultz) to throw strikes. The Tigers hitters, if nothing else, are 2nd in the AL in runs, RBI, total bases and slugging. If their bullpen gets worn out because they can't trust guys like Davis and Hernandez, I think we'll be in good shape in August and September.

At the end of this month, Cleveland faces Det and then Bos. We'll see where they are at that time and then we can judge them. They haven't had a tough schedule at all yet, only playing one team over .500.

The only real teams they played in April were Chicago, Minnesota and New York and they went 6-5. They beat up on Texas and Toronto. That's real difficult.


I'm not 100 percent sold on Detroit repeating last year's feats either, but it does go both ways. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who see the Indians record so far as a fluke, and judging by the stats, I could see why they'd think that. We in here all know that the Tribe hasn't even started to play their best ball yet, but I'm sure the people in Detroit would say the same thing.
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Unread postby dmcdougal » Mon May 07, 2007 10:10 am

Todd Jones has had success this year, but I really can't see him being that solid all year


I disagree about that one part of your comment. Todd Jones is a quality closer. He will blow a save every now and then but he's one of the better closers in the AL, and he's consistent

That being said, I agree with everything else. Granderson is a quality lead-off hitter but he strikes out too much and he just doesn't have a high enough OBP. I love the middle of their order though. Inge plays quality defense or else he would be worthless.

And Detroit fan, 1) why are you on our boards, and 2) Cleveland is a much better all around team. We have a top 3 lineup in the AL and we are only hitting like .260 for the season (being generous). We have the best leadoff man in the AL (quote from Ozzie Guillen), the best center fielder in the AL, and a starting staff that has been lights out..

but I'm fair, I'll also talk about our negatives. We strike out too much, we don't play smart (bunt, move runners over, hit and run), we have too many platoons, and our bullpen is shaky some nights. We also don't have a dependable long man if our starter goes down.

As far as I'm concerned, the Tigers will finish #3 in the division behind Cleveland and Chicago.
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Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon May 07, 2007 11:46 am

NEOLeo wrote:Dear Skating Tripods, From Detroit Fan.

The pitching is suspect. Byrd is winding down, and Betancourt plays too much Shoot it like Barry to stay healthy. Joe Borowski has had success this year, but I really can't see him being that solid all year. They have to rely on their soft tossing lefties (Sowers, Lee, and Fultz) to throw strikes. The Tigers hitters, if nothing else, are 2nd in the AL in runs, RBI, total bases and slugging. If their bullpen gets worn out because they can't trust guys like Davis and Hernandez, I think we'll be in good shape in August and September.

At the end of this month, Cleveland faces Det and then Bos. We'll see where they are at that time and then we can judge them. They haven't had a tough schedule at all yet, only playing one team over .500.

The only real teams they played in April were Chicago, Minnesota and New York and they went 6-5. They beat up on Texas and Toronto. That's real difficult.


Wow, where to start with these fallacies? First off, Byrd just learned a new pitch this offseason and has had loads of success with it so far (see his GB:FB ratio...light years better than last season). I wouldn't say Byrd is winding down just yet, because there isn't much to wind down from. If he's .500 and a good veteran presence, I'm thrilled with that. He's our weakest starter.

Yes, we do have to rely on Sowers and Lee to throw strikes. Lee has won just seven less games over the last two seasons than Robertson and Maroth combined. Throw Sowers in there and they are tied in one less season for the Indians southpaws. Sure, Maroth is 2-0, with a 5 ERA and a higher BB than K, oh, and a 1.75 WHIP.

Fernando Rodney has four losses and five decisions already. That's certainly not something you want to see in May. Grilli is in the same boat. He's not pitched well in his 11 innings with more BB than K and an ERA over 5. Zumaya's rocking 3 blown saves on his own.

So much for relying on Davis, he's been DFA'd. As for Hernandez, there are other options out of the bullpen. If Zumaya can't stay healthy, Rodney and Grilli have to be good. They are much more vital to Detroit's bullpen than guys like Davis and Hernandez are to ours.

Texas is a good hitting lineup. Bad pitching, I'll give you that. Toronto is in that same boat. They were coming off a 5-2 stretch including a sweep of Boston before they got here, were they not? But still, the fact of the matter is we are 6-2 in the division against real contenders. Detroit is 10-6 and 70% of those wins are against Kansas City.

The playing only one team over .500 is a ridiculous argument. First of all, it's two teams and New York and Chicago are barely under .500. Chicago is a tough game no matter what their record indicates. Texas and Toronto aren't all that easy with our lineup not clicking yet. We've also had a four-day layoff, three "home" games in Milwaukee, an injury to our #2 starter, and an injury to the second best hitting catcher in the American League.

I don't see how Cleveland and Detroit can be compared at all up to this point. Detroit's record is exceptionally misleading.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon May 07, 2007 12:06 pm

Skating Tripods wrote:I don't see how Cleveland and Detroit can be compared at all up to this point. Detroit's record is exceptionally misleading.


Not to butt in....but Cleveland's record may be misleading as well. They have won a few games they had no reason winning so far....but that is baseball. According to pythag for expected wins losses to date, Cleveland should be 16-12 and Detroit 18-12. Detroit is currently 19-11, which is one game above expectations, and the Indians are 18-10 and two games above expectations.

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Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon May 07, 2007 12:51 pm

People get too caught up in sabremetrics. It is what it is. The Indians have battled, Detroit has coasted with Kansas City in 1/3 of their games. Please stop overlooking that fact.
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Unread postby neoleo » Mon May 07, 2007 1:03 pm

dmcdougal wrote:And Detroit fan, 1) why are you on our boards. . .


I can't tell if you were serious, so let me set this straight just so everybody understands, NEOLeo is not actually a Detroit fan. In fact, the fact that you might have misunderstood that point makes him want to impale himself onto the point at the top of the terminal tower. NEOLeo is, and always will be, a Cleveland Sports Fan. He was merely presenting an opposing point of view, one of which could've represented a Detroit fan's perspective.
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Unread postby dmcdougal » Mon May 07, 2007 1:18 pm

well damn you could have just come out with that when you said from a Detroit fan. i was ready to impale NEOLeo as well...
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Unread postby neoleo » Mon May 07, 2007 1:26 pm

I don't think my points were completely invalid, but you do make some good points.

Skating Tripods wrote:So much for relying on Davis, he's been DFA'd. As for Hernandez, there are other options out of the bullpen. If Zumaya can't stay healthy, Rodney and Grilli have to be good. They are much more vital to Detroit's bullpen than guys like Davis and Hernandez are to ours.


Who exactly can we count on out of the bullpen? I like guys with track records, since those are typically the guys you can actually count on. Mastny and Mujica have loads of promise, but I wouldn't grant them the "counting on" status just yet. As much as we all love Cabrera, he hasn't proved anything yet, and just as he starts to show his dominance this year, he goes and gives up multiple runs in back to back outings. Betancourt? He has a history of being inconsistant and injury prone. I like him, but not as a guy that we have to count on to be the guy. I would say that we ARE counting on Hernandez, and judging by the way he's been used so far, so would Wedge.

Let me get back to the Tribe's side in this argument. I would say that of all the strenghts on this team, I still feel weakest about the bullpen.
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Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon May 07, 2007 1:47 pm

NEOLeo wrote:I don't think my points were completely invalid, but you do make some good points.

Who exactly can we count on out of the bullpen? I like guys with track records, since those are typically the guys you can actually count on. Mastny and Mujica have loads of promise, but I wouldn't grant them the "counting on" status just yet. As much as we all love Cabrera, he hasn't proved anything yet, and just as he starts to show his dominance this year, he goes and gives up multiple runs in back to back outings. Betancourt? He has a history of being inconsistant and injury prone. I like him, but not as a guy that we have to count on to be the guy. I would say that we ARE counting on Hernandez, and judging by the way he's been used so far, so would Wedge.

Let me get back to the Tribe's side in this argument. I would say that of all the strenghts on this team, I still feel weakest about the bullpen.


I agree 100% that our pen is the weakest part of this team. It completely overshadows the whole "bad defense" argument.

I guess we are counting on Hernandez, but there are other options. Hernandez has accomplished far more than anyone in the Tigers pen. My dad told me that Hernandez sat down Carmona when they demoted him and gave him a vote of confidence (per 1100). That is what Hernandez brings to this team.

Hernandez is supposed to handle these pressure cooker situations. Some days he's good, other days he isn't. He's a gamble because he is 42 years old. I'm far from sold on Mastny. Do people even remember Cabrera's '05 campaign? He was pretty solid.

We don't have a Bob Howry for our '05 run. I'd like to have Matt Miller back, because he is pretty consistent. I don't disagree with you, but at the end of the day, I like our lineup and our starting pitching more than Detroit's.
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Unread postby neoleo » Mon May 07, 2007 2:06 pm

Skating Tripods wrote:I guess we are counting on Hernandez, but there are other options. Hernandez has accomplished far more than anyone in the Tigers pen. My dad told me that Hernandez sat down Carmona when they demoted him and gave him a vote of confidence (per 1100). That is what Hernandez brings to this team.


And this is why I was a fan of bringing in Hernandez (and Nixon). Although he's old as dirt (and he hasn't been that good so far), he's coming off some very productive seasons and he understands the game and knows his role as a mentor.

Skating Tripods wrote: Do people even remember Cabrera's '05 campaign? He was pretty solid.


I do. That's what I was trying to get at with my point about him. As soon as he starts to show his dominance this season (again? he was close to dominant as a rook in 05), he goes and gives up the runs in back to back games.

Skating Tripods wrote:I don't disagree with you, but at the end of the day, I like our lineup and our starting pitching more than Detroit's.


This my friend, is where we agree the most. I think Detroit has a very good lineup, but ours has the potential to be one of, if not the best in the AL.
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