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VMart Suffers Torn ACL

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Vmart out for 2012

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:30 pm

Per the twitterverse, "VMart is likely to have surgury on torn ACL, will be out for 2012 season."

If this is the case I'd have to think the Tigers are going to jump into the Pena, Kotchman, Cespedes, Lee chase. There gonna need a bat.
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VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:30 pm

Per all the major media on Twitter.

Shoulda been you, Miguel.

Sucks for Victor. Good for us. I wonder if they may look at one of our 1B candidates as a DH.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:31 pm

Jinx.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:34 pm

Fast moderation by whoever merged these.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:41 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Fast moderation by whoever merged these.


Peeker on the quick draw.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:41 pm

I'm hoping Verlander throws his arms up in despair at this news and ruptures the capsule in his elbow. Followed by Miggy deciding to drink away the disappointment (hopefully in Ben Roethlisberger's neighborhood).
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:43 pm

bookelly wrote:Peeker on the quick draw.


Probably how he wound up with three daughters.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:48 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
bookelly wrote:Peeker on the quick draw.


Probably how he wound up with three daughters.


Damn it. I knew that was next.

And it wasn't even me who merged the threads. it was someone who saw me getting made fun of two steps ahead of it happening That requires intelligence and foresight.

So it obviously wasn't Pup.

Hmm....
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:17 pm

Was just reading a chapter in the new Bill James Handbook which talked about players who hit around a dozen HRs and drive in 100+ runs. Basically, there's been around 10 players in history who have driven in that many runs with 13 or fewer HRs. Victor was one last year. So was Michael Young. The next year, they almost all suffer huge production drops b/c that many RBI with so little power is not sustainable.

It's already happened for Victor.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:23 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Was just reading a chapter in the new Bill James Handbook which talked about players who hit around a dozen HRs and drive in 100+ runs. Basically, there's been around 10 players in history who have driven in that many runs with 13 or fewer HRs. Victor was one last year. So was Michael Young. The next year, they almost all suffer huge production drops b/c that many RBI with so little power is not sustainable.



Maybe so. But if any two offenses in the game could sustain that kind of 'powerless' production, the Tigers and Texas would probably be my first two picks.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:46 pm

peeker643 wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Was just reading a chapter in the new Bill James Handbook which talked about players who hit around a dozen HRs and drive in 100+ runs. Basically, there's been around 10 players in history who have driven in that many runs with 13 or fewer HRs. Victor was one last year. So was Michael Young. The next year, they almost all suffer huge production drops b/c that many RBI with so little power is not sustainable.



Maybe so. But if any two offenses in the game could sustain that kind of 'powerless' production, the Tigers and Texas would probably be my first two picks.


I just looked. Funny thing is Michael Young had one other 100 RBI season. He hit 14 HRs that year. He has four 20+ HR seasons w/out 100 RBI. Good thing the cutoff is 13 HRs!
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:09 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Was just reading a chapter in the new Bill James Handbook which talked about players who hit around a dozen HRs and drive in 100+ runs. Basically, there's been around 10 players in history who have driven in that many runs with 13 or fewer HRs. Victor was one last year. So was Michael Young. The next year, they almost all suffer huge production drops b/c that many RBI with so little power is not sustainable.



Maybe so. But if any two offenses in the game could sustain that kind of 'powerless' production, the Tigers and Texas would probably be my first two picks.


I just looked. Funny thing is Michael Young had one other 100 RBI season. He hit 14 HRs that year. He has four 20+ HR seasons w/out 100 RBI. Good thing the cutoff is 13 HRs!


He slugged .470 and had a 135 OPS+ in 2011, both marks that would have led the Indians. Wish we had someone with "so little power." He also hit 40 doubles, more than anyone on the Indians. Since 2004 he's played in more than 73 games and had an OPS+ over 122 in every season but one. Bill James Handbook be damned, I don't think Vic's production was ready to fall off a cliff.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:44 pm

Ironically, the Bill James Handbook projected Victor for 17 HRs and 100 RBI. Not anymore!

BTW, Michael Young is completely a creation of the Ballpark at Arlington or whatever that is called. He is a career .283/.327/.410 hitter on the road, .325/.373/.493 on the road. 31 more home HRs despite ~ 60 fewer PAs.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:19 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Ironically, the Bill James Handbook projected Victor for 17 HRs and 100 RBI. Not anymore!

BTW, Michael Young is completely a creation of the Ballpark at Arlington or whatever that is called. He is a career .283/.327/.410 hitter on the road, .325/.373/.493 on the road. 31 more home HRs despite ~ 60 fewer PAs.


You know, this is where stats only guys get me. Replace Michael Young with Matt Holiday. Cause he's the guy on this board who instigated all the talk from the statheads on this board claiming St. Louis was stupid, that Holiday could only hit in Colorado - as if was still the same Colorado Dante Bichette was hitting in.

And I said, really? You watchin' the guy hit? Could it be he's just a little more comfortable at home? Cause that's a guy that ain't gonna fall apart just cause he changes locations. And of course he goes to St. Louis, wins a silver slugger, finishes higher in the MVP voting as he had in his career, save his career year and was...really...Matt Holiday.

Does Michael Young appear TO ANYONE WHO'S WATCHING HIM HIT, to be a guy that will totally fall apart somewhere, because he's no longer in Arlington? Sure, he might catch a few more dongs, as a guy with his style might in, say NY. I understand park variance and all that. But anyone who thinks Michael Young's offensive career is owed to Arlington clearly needs to get the nose out of a book, and check out some action.

Again, the classic Andy Marte example. Where are all the cats that trumpeted his Braves minor league stats while real life was unfolding before their very eyes? They ran from this site, possible out of embarrassment, possibly so they didn't have to pay off their bets.....

And why are RBI's still being mentioned. I thought they haven't counted for years....or something.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:59 pm

I love stats. I do. I find them endlessly fascinating, especially in the hands of someone who understands the context in which they should be used.

But, you had me at "...He might catch a few more dongs."
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:11 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I love stats. I do. I find them endlessly fascinating, especially in the hands of someone who understands the context in which they should be used.

But, you had me at "...He might catch a few more dongs."


From what I heard, it's always been tough to sneak a 'dong' by you.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:13 pm

peeker643 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:I love stats. I do. I find them endlessly fascinating, especially in the hands of someone who understands the context in which they should be used.

But, you had me at "...He might catch a few more dongs."


From what I heard, it's always been tough to sneak a 'dong' by you.


No doubt. Always smacking me in the nose.

Wait, what?
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:27 pm

The dude's had ~3,600 ABs on the road. That's like five full seasons. He's clearly demonstrated that there's a level he will perform at away from the Ballpark at Arlington and a level he'll perform at inside the Ballpark at Arlington. His future road performance will be similar to his past road performance -- maybe worse, as he is aging. This does not mean Michael Young is a bad player. He's Casey Blake who becomes an All-Star when playing in Arlington.

I don't know about the Holliday/Bichette talks. Holliday's an excellent player who became an MVP candidate when playing at Coors. Career in Busch = .319/.410/.571 in 782 PAs. Career in Coors = .357/.423/.648 in twice as many ABs. Clearly Coors had an effect.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:53 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:The dude's had ~3,600 ABs on the road. That's like five full seasons. He's clearly demonstrated that there's a level he will perform at away from the Ballpark at Arlington and a level he'll perform at inside the Ballpark at Arlington. His future road performance will be similar to his past road performance -- maybe worse, as he is aging. This does not mean Michael Young is a bad player. He's Casey Blake who becomes an All-Star when playing in Arlington.

I don't know about the Holliday/Bichette talks. Holliday's an excellent player who became an MVP candidate when playing at Coors. Career in Busch = .319/.410/.571 in 782 PAs. Career in Coors = .357/.423/.648 in twice as many ABs. Clearly Coors had an effect.


It's all relative.

So, Casey Blake would hit as well as Michael Young if he played in Arlington?

O.K.

I see different hitters

And you're right about Holiday - he's an excellent player. And he'd do ANYWHERE what excellent players do. Sure, if he played his home games in Florida, the final numbers wouldn't be as great, but relative to what everyone else is doing he'd still be an excellent player.

And you shouldn't need a calculator to figure that out.

You know, Michael Young's hit home and away, righties and lefties. He's hit with a dark uniform on, and a white one. He's hit in short and long sleeves. Indoors and out. And no matter what combination of numbers you wanna cull, understanding that Michael Young can f'ing hit, ain't that GD hard to figure out.

Jesus H. Christ.

And Matt Holiday - interesting you pulled his Coors/Busch stats. Why not look at his stats as a Rockie, and as a Cardinal. Cause those are to my point - As a Rockie .319/.386/.582, as a Cardinal .314/.394/.543.

Looks like about the same excellent player to me - no matter where the hell he's at. And if not for age, if Michael Young moved somewhere when he was about 30 for 4 or 5 seasons you'd see the same thing.

Again, to watch Michael Young and tell us a park made his career, and that otherwise he'd be Casey Blake, is someone who might know books, but they don't watch much baseball.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:13 pm

Casey Blake isn't a bad player. His career OPS is .771. Young's is .801.

Blake in Arlington hit .298/.353/.587 for a .940 OPS in 116 PAs. Young has hit .325/.373/.493 for an .866 OPS.

They are a lot more similar than one would think.

As for why I just used Coors/Busch stats for Holliday, I wanted to compare how he hit in the two main parks he has played in. Obviously Coors helped him as it does (or perhaps did) with most players. But his numbers in Busch alone show he's an All Star player.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby pup » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:10 am

Keep fighting the good fight Lead!

GHCS, you can make your point by saying home and road and leaving out the location of those games. Cause the location is not all that significant. There are dudes that hit better at home. Across the board.

Here is a guy that obviously benefits from a great hitter's park:

Home - 230G, 838AB, .334/.377/.529 OPS+112
Road - 233G, 868AB, .281/.336/.474 OPS+89
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:45 am

Casey Blake is a fine player but he is nowhere near Micheal Young.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:01 am

pup wrote:Keep fighting the good fight Lead!

GHCS, you can make your point by saying home and road and leaving out the location of those games. Cause the location is not all that significant. There are dudes that hit better at home. Across the board.

Here is a guy that obviously benefits from a great hitter's park:

Home - 230G, 838AB, .334/.377/.529 OPS+112
Road - 233G, 868AB, .281/.336/.474 OPS+89


Your Pablo Sandoval comparison would be apt if Arlington didn't inflate practically everyone's hitting stats. You can't use one guy's home/road stats and say that cancels out the effects a ballpark has on just about everyone, especially considering that Michael Young has had five times as many ABs as Sandoval, proving it's no fluke.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby pup » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:48 am

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
pup wrote:Keep fighting the good fight Lead!

GHCS, you can make your point by saying home and road and leaving out the location of those games. Cause the location is not all that significant. There are dudes that hit better at home. Across the board.

Here is a guy that obviously benefits from a great hitter's park:

Home - 230G, 838AB, .334/.377/.529 OPS+112
Road - 233G, 868AB, .281/.336/.474 OPS+89


Your Pablo Sandoval comparison would be apt if Arlington didn't inflate practically everyone's hitting stats. You can't use one guy's home/road stats and say that cancels out the effects a ballpark has on just about everyone, especially considering that Michael Young has had five times as many ABs as Sandoval, proving it's no fluke.


Christ. If I had a couple full time assistants, I am sure I could go through the history of the game and find plenty of people that have home and road splits that had nothing to do with the ball park. Which is the point. I checked 2 players. Found 1 that has home and road splits that obviously have nothing to do with positive park factors.

And I cannot believe I am sucked back into this. But if I had to pinpoint my single biggest bitch about the stats crew it is examples like above. You are taking a group of numbers and combining them with something that seems to play a factor in it and making a decision. When in fact, there is every bit the opportunity, that the splits and ballpark factor are completely unrelated.

Insinuating that Mike Young would not be as good of a hitter if his home games were in Seattle because he has the road splits you are looking at is a myth. Maybe Young puts up worse numbers on the road because the guys around him are not as good as he is and their results are more enhanced at home. So those guys struggle on the road, putting him in less enviable hitting situations to take advantage of. But when he goes to Seattle, his teammates play better at home so he would still get those advantageous situations.

This could (and somewhere will) go on forever.

The Yankees have a great offense.
The Yankees take a lot of pitches.
Taking a lot of pitches makes an offense great.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:55 am

Since I don't have to go to work for a couple more hours and apparently have nothing better to do ...

Michael Young's career numbers in Safeco = .271/.316/.382 in 442 PAs. I blame him, not his teammates.

Just for fun, Casey Blake in Safeco = .314/.371/.558. Just 98 PAs, but still ...
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby pup » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:58 am

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Since I don't have to go to work for a couple more hours and apparently have nothing better to do ...

Michael Young's career numbers in Safeco = .271/.316/.382 in 442 PAs. I blame him, not his teammates.

Just for fun, Casey Blake in Safeco = .314/.371/.558. Just 98 PAs, but still ...


Good work. Now go ask Seattle who they would want.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:05 pm

pup wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Since I don't have to go to work for a couple more hours and apparently have nothing better to do ...

Michael Young's career numbers in Safeco = .271/.316/.382 in 442 PAs. I blame him, not his teammates.

Just for fun, Casey Blake in Safeco = .314/.371/.558. Just 98 PAs, but still ...


Good work. Now go ask Seattle who they would want.


Maybe I should hop in my time machine and go back a year ago and ask Texas if they want Michael Young. They spent all last offseason doing everything they could to replace him.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:02 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
pup wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Since I don't have to go to work for a couple more hours and apparently have nothing better to do ...

Michael Young's career numbers in Safeco = .271/.316/.382 in 442 PAs. I blame him, not his teammates.

Just for fun, Casey Blake in Safeco = .314/.371/.558. Just 98 PAs, but still ...


Good work. Now go ask Seattle who they would want.


Maybe I should hop in my time machine and go back a year ago and ask Texas if they want Michael Young. They spent all last offseason doing everything they could to replace him.


How many posts can this go without you making an actual baseball observation?

Replacing Michael Young had to do with performance, right? - couldn't a been age or money.

But wait, why would they wanna jettison the guy from the place which made him an excellent player?

Again. Good. Holy. Christ.

Can you get your nose out of a book for two seconds. Or, put it back in for a few hours and list ALL the players who hit worse at Safeco - as if that proves any point in this conversation.

I'm not a Blake basher, but answer Pup's question - who, on God's green earth, that isn't a BF moron, is going to take Casey Blake over Michael Young NO MATTER WHERE THE HELL THEY PLAY.

Hey, if the forcast calls for heavy rain overnight, and you wake up the next morning and the street is wet, can you assume it rained, or do you need some sort of data to back it up.

Cause again, anyone watching Michael Young hit over the last several years.....aaahh f' it.
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Re: VMart Suffers Torn ACL

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:15 pm

V-Mart had microfracture surgery on Friday, along with meniscus and MCL repair. ACL surgery on the same knee in 6-8 weeks. What are the odds that Victor comes back from this one? No wonder the Tigers went all in in Prince.

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