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MLB: Lets open this can of worms and end it.

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MLB: Lets open this can of worms and end it.

Unread postby FUDU » Fri May 04, 2007 1:53 am

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=2858983&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab3pos1

The guy who might, just might, force Major League Baseball to break into a full sweat -- and break out the asterisks -- is a 37-year-old nobody, a career jockstrap picker-upper, a glorified gofer who used to work for tips in the Shea Stadium visitors clubhouse. He wasn't the lowest person on the New York Mets' organizational food chain, but he was close.

Kirk Radomski is his name. He was a clubbie, and clubbies are supposed to shine up your cleats, fetch you the latest issue of Maxim and make sure there are enough forks and knives for the postgame food spread. They aren't supposed to be chirping to the feds like a robin in a birdbath.

But Radomski took the baseball service industry to a new level. He followed up his years of finding new shoelaces for the fellas by becoming, for dozens of yet-unnamed ballplayers both past and present, the one-stop shopping destination for human growth hormone and steroids, among others.

MLB, its players, their union and the record book could be on the verge of a massive cluster migraine. And all because a former no-name clubhouse assistant recently pleaded guilty in a San Francisco federal court to supplying dozens of big leaguers with performance enhancers and then laundering the drug money. He's looking at as many as 25 years in the big house and $500,000 in fines.

So Radomski is talking to federal investigators. And talking some more. And the more he talks, the more MLB commissioner Bud Selig and players union executive director Donald Fehr squirm in their suits. Isn't this great?

................

I'm lovin it.

Sorry to those of you that truly love baseball no matter what and under any circumstances but IMO a sport isn't a sport if it isn't real. True to itself and true to competition between all that take the field/court. Regardless of any "but the fans want it this way" retorts.

I truly hope MLB comes crumbling down as horrifically as the WTC, and I say that with the ut most respect and sympathy for that sad day.

In the end my hopes are the sport recovers and returns to it's true self as in back in the day with the names of so many heroes that we grew up collecting cards of.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Fri May 04, 2007 3:09 am

Well, I hope you aren't too attached to the other sports leagues. The NFL is just as guilty as MLB and has just as many users. They're up next.

I hope the NFL crumbles to pieces and the true sport returns.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri May 04, 2007 7:45 am

For whatever reason, the steroid issue in baseball or any sport for that matter just doesn't bother me much.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Fri May 04, 2007 8:41 am

Pete Gammons estimated yesterday that there were probably 1500-2000 players who took some sort of PED in the last 20 years.

1500 to 2000!

Gammons later admitted that this period, from 1987 (what Oakland A's OF came up around that time?) to 2007, will certainly be known as the steroid era when this Mets' clubhouse guy names names.
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Unread postby FUDU » Fri May 04, 2007 10:58 am

The NFL is just as guilty as MLB and has just as many users. They're up next.


Quite possibly, the thing about the NFL is they have had the proactive approach for a long time now, 20+ years IIRC.

Their policy has also been a good one and they make no bones about how serious they are.

Not to say players don't get away with it (nothing is perfect) but the NFL certainly does not give the impression that they are only going through the motions and ultimately really don't care, b/c that is exactly what MLB is and has been doing.

I can at least respect the NFL for its efforts, cannot say the same thing for MLB.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Fri May 04, 2007 11:14 am

FUDU wrote:
Quite possibly, the thing about the NFL is they have had the proactive approach for a long time now, 20+ years IIRC.

Their policy has also been a good one and they make no bones about how serious they are.

Not to say players don't get away with it (nothing is perfect) but the NFL certainly does not give the impression that they are only going through the motions and ultimately really don't care, b/c that is exactly what MLB is and has been doing.

I can at least respect the NFL for its efforts, cannot say the same thing for MLB.


MLB has a much more powerful union that would have fighted tooth and nail until public opinion swung so strongly against them.

The NFL broke the union 20 years ago. I'd say they're more on the hook than baseball and I think the NFL's efforts have been largely lackluster. They test for the "traditional" stuff, but ignore so many other things when they have the ability to push testing further.

I'm another one who's just not bothered by the whole steroid thing. I wasn't shocked when the news broke. I realize that there are plenty of people in all sports who use the stuff and other things (HGH for one). People have found ways to avoid detection even with random drug testing.

Too many people are overly idealistic about sports. Cheating will always happen. Athletes will often get away with it. Whether it's the holding that gets ignored, the vaseline ball that gets thrown, or the steroid that gets injected. Hell, I intentionally cheated when I played basketball. I never took any performance enhancers, but I'd hammer on my opponents when the refs were looking another direction.

Because of the larger rosters and the fact that they have more teams, I guarantee you that the NFL has more cheaters in it than football. The only way to prevent it is to have each and every player watched at all times, both on and off the field.
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Unread postby FUDU » Fri May 04, 2007 11:37 am

The NFL broke the union 20 years ago. I'd say they're more on the hook than baseball and I think the NFL's efforts have been largely lackluster. They test for the "traditional" stuff, but ignore so many other things when they have the ability to push testing further.


The NFL is no where near being on the hook as much as ANY other sport, particularly baseball. The NFL has been perpetually applauded for it efforts and its polices on drugs. They polices evolve with science and have been and are ahead of other sports. Not to say the NFL's policy is perfect. But you're way off implying that the NFL isn't hands down at the top of the mountain in this regards, head and shoulders above MLB to boot.

I'm another one who's just not bothered by the whole steroid thing. I wasn't shocked when the news broke. I realize that there are plenty of people in all sports who use the stuff and other things (HGH for one). People have found ways to avoid detection even with random drug testing.


The problem here is there are plenty of athletes who do it by the book and for them to step on the field and have to compete with players who go beyond the boundaries of the rules is..well it isn't competition on an equal playing filed that's for sure.

Too many people are overly idealistic about sports. Cheating will always happen. Athletes will often get away with it. Whether it's the holding that gets ignored, the vaseline ball that gets thrown, or the steroid that gets injected. Hell, I intentionally cheated when I played basketball. I never took any performance enhancers, but I'd hammer on my opponents when the refs were looking another direction.


Those things like holding, doctored baseballs and hammering the opponent on the court are not in the same boat as steroids is as a cheating mechanism. Steroids requires off the playing surface tests and involvement of certified professionals to be detected. Holding, Vaseline balls and hard off the ball fouls only require a referee (that is present at that time) to simply blow a whistle, those are most often total judgment calls, steroids is like being pregnant, you're either on them or you're not. There is no way to tell during the sporting event if in fact somebody is on PED's.
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Unread postby StewieG » Fri May 04, 2007 11:41 am

There is no way to tell during the sporting event if in fact somebody is on PED's.


I disagree. When Barroid's arms fall off at the elbows during a swing, and he gets enraged at the bat boy for making his arms fall off, and tries to kill him with the bloody stumps that used to be his arms...I'm pretty sure we'll know during the event that he's on PED's.

You know this is going to happen. I, for one, can't wait.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Fri May 04, 2007 12:11 pm

FUDU wrote:
The NFL is no where near being on the hook as much as ANY other sport, particularly baseball. The NFL has been perpetually applauded for it efforts and its polices on drugs. They polices evolve with science and have been and are ahead of other sports. Not to say the NFL's policy is perfect. But you're way off implying that the NFL isn't hands down at the top of the mountain in this regards, head and shoulders above MLB to boot.


Still not HGH test and reports that plenty of NFL players still use steroids undetected.

The NFL is all about show. MLB hasn't done as good of a job at it. I see little to no substance in the NFL policies. They're just better at playing the PR card.

The problem here is there are plenty of athletes who do it by the book and for them to step on the field and have to compete with players who go beyond the boundaries of the rules is..well it isn't competition on an equal playing filed that's for sure.


Competition is NEVER on an equal playing field. Someone will always have an advantage and some of those advantages are genetic in nature. Funny thing is that there are cases where steroids have helped. There are also plenty of cases where they've been a negative. I've seen it first hand on the high school and collegiate levels. They don't help everyone.


Those things like holding, doctored baseballs and hammering the opponent on the court are not in the same boat as steroids is as a cheating mechanism. Steroids requires off the playing surface tests and involvement of certified professionals to be detected. Holding, Vaseline balls and hard off the ball fouls only require a referee (that is present at that time) to simply blow a whistle, those are most often total judgment calls, steroids is like being pregnant, you're either on them or you're not. There is no way to tell during the sporting event if in fact somebody is on PED's.


Nope there's not. Thank you for making my point for me.

Since we don't test prior to a game and during a game, what's the point? You want enforcement then make it total. There are things that players can take before a game to enhance performance. They may not be steroids, but there are plenty of other drugs out there that not all the players would take before a game. Do you know how many players may take amphetamines before a game? That certainly doesn't make the playing field "level", now does it?

You're not going to stop it unless you bring out Big Brother and watch every movement of every player at all times.

You say the NFL is on the cusp of science. Bull. The players who do steroids and HGH and whatever else are way ahead of their sports leagues. As I said, the NFL has the appearance that they're doing all they can and appearance does mean a lot, but I GUARANTEE you that NFL players cheat just as much with PEDs are baseball players do and there's nothing you can do about it.

If you don't like it then you're going to have to take a stand and stop watching all sports because it happens in each and every one of them.
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Re: MLB: Lets open this can of worms and end it.

Unread postby sandlot33 » Fri May 04, 2007 12:15 pm

FUDU wrote:

In the end my hopes are the sport recovers and returns to it's true self as in back in the day with the names of so many heroes that we grew up collecting cards of.


I grew up collecting cards of Darryl "put some coke in the" Strawberry and Barry Bonds...great influeneces

I am also one that does not care at all about the steroid use.

1. 3/4's of baseball was probably doing it
2. It was not a banned substance
3. some of those steroids were not even illegal at the time
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Unread postby FUDU » Fri May 04, 2007 12:42 pm

Nope there's not. Thank you for making my point for me.


The point of my reply was that you cannot compare the holdings, doctored pitches etc to PED as cheating mechanisms, they are just two totally different worlds all together. Plus holding and hard fouls are not necessarily cheating. They are infractions and often only of circumstance to techniques and aggression. One does not have to being cheating or looking to gain an advantage by doing those things. They can and are often simple mistakes in the heat of battle. However a Vaseline ball is cheating and looking to gain an advantage outside of the rules, as well as steroids.

Somebody taking steroids is not doing it for any other reason than to have a competitive advantage or cheat. That is the bottom line.


from NFL.com

"The reason for this is to maintain the competitive balance in the league. If players were using steroids, there would be a temptation for non-users to try steroids in an effort to compete physically. The NFL is setting this tough standard to keep players on a level playing field and to protect them from themselves."

"A computer will randomly select six players, on each team, each week, to be tested. To show how random the test is, my HBO partner Dan Marino said he was tested eight times in one season."
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Fri May 04, 2007 1:25 pm

Good dodge on the amphetamine question.

If a player takes amphetamines before a game as a performance enhancer, how does the NFL catch it since they don't test in game?

I guarantee you that NFL players do it. You don't seem all that broken up about it.

And, as I said, the NFL's drug testing is just PR. We all know that players have means of getting around the screenings. The NFL tests are nothing more than a nice security blanket for fans like you, but the blanket is as real as the Emperor's new clothes.

MLB has not been as good at PR as the NFL has been and you want to essentially dog the league just for that.

As I said, just as many and likely more NFL players are juiced. There've been reports on that too, but the NFL is better at deflecting criticisms and many of the fans choose to ignore it because they can't imagine life with the No Fun League.
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Unread postby FUDU » Fri May 04, 2007 2:06 pm

Mr. MacPhisto wrote:Good dodge on the amphetamine question.

If a player takes amphetamines before a game as a performance enhancer, how does the NFL catch it since they don't test in game?

I guarantee you that NFL players do it. You don't seem all that broken up about it.

And, as I said, the NFL's drug testing is just PR. We all know that players have means of getting around the screenings. The NFL tests are nothing more than a nice security blanket for fans like you, but the blanket is as real as the Emperor's new clothes.

MLB has not been as good at PR as the NFL has been and you want to essentially dog the league just for that.

As I said, just as many and likely more NFL players are juiced. There've been reports on that too, but the NFL is better at deflecting criticisms and many of the fans choose to ignore it because they can't imagine life with the No Fun League.


I'm no expert on amphetamines which is why I didn't respond to that specifically.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2006-06-27-amphetamines-policy_x.htm

The NFL has been ahead of the game in regards to other sports. Only recently has baseball finally come around.

As far as the NFL's testing being just PR that is bullshit. They have had suspensions for first time offenses for a while now, way before everyone else and they have continued to increase the severity of those suspensions.

The other thing about the difference between the two sports, and the impact of PEDs, is an individual greatly impacts a baseball game much more than a football game just by design. 22 players on a field compared to 10 in baseball, with one team only having one representative on the field at once, when he is batting. (which undoubtedly is where the greatest impact of PEDs can be had in a baseball game).

Need look no further than the increasing stats in baseball and the soon to be falling records. It is still very difficult for an individual on PEDs to impact a football game, at least to the point in which observers can detect it with the naked eye, even over long periods of time.

I am not so much looking to dog MLB about steroids as much as dog them about them being the most dishonest and corrupt pro sports league by far, for the longest of times.

But this isn't about NFL v MLB. If the NFL needs to be brought down then so be it, this is about what is right and wrong with baseball. Right now it is wrong that baseball exists as it does and continues to keep on keepin on b/c of and due to this controversy.
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PED's

Unread postby monty980 » Sun May 06, 2007 4:50 pm

It's easy to sit down and watch a game and not think about it. Pretty soon a season has gone by, then two, then five. Next thing you know some slugger is about to set another homerun record. Its good for baseball though. It puts fans in the seats and bumps up TV ratings. Baseball is about tradition though. It is built on tradition. Why do we stand and sing "Take Me Out To the Ballgame", greet opposing players' homeruns with chants of "Throw it back!", or go to a home game and clap along with John Adams and his drum. There is no other professional sports league with the tradition that MLB has. Baseball is about pitcher vs. batter. Babe Ruth wasn't on HGH, Ted Williams was pure natural talent and Hank Aaron certainly didn't have any assistance. Hank just like Jackie Robinson battled biggots and racists in trying to accomplish what they did. What battles has Barry had to fight as a MLB player? Only the ones he has brought on himself. He is nothing but a self serving ass who thinks the world owes him something, and no matter what he accomplishes he will always think that. Personally I don't want Barry to break the record (though I know he will). I don't even know how close he is. The fact is if we allow these players to set records without footnotes or asterisks, or go down in history as one of the greatest ever, we are cheapening what others have done in the past. It doesn't matter how many are using. The fact still remains that in generations past, no one was. IMO the greatest thing that Selig could do is not celebrate it. For as big of a bumbling idiot that he is, not celebrating Barry could be the most positive thing he will be known for in 50-100 years.
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