Cleveland Indians & MLB

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:02 pm

This guy better never even get so much as a freaking hangnail. This is way too risky to bet it all on one player.

by **FortheWin** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:03 pm

Someone official of the MLB just said Ubaldo is still the starter for the Rox. 34 minutes till first pitch

by **MikeCheckGW** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:04 pm

Not sure how Ubaldo will help you not get shut out by the Royals. Needed a big bat over a supposed "ace"

by **e0y2e3** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:04 pm

Adverb Harry wrote:This guy better never even get so much as a freaking hangnail. This is way too risky to bet it all on one player.

Yep, two unproven pitchers and a feh guy is certainly two much for two years of a top flight guy.

For sure.

It's not like teams hope to get a front line starter (and both of these guys are not considered aces) for every two front line prospects.

by **TribeinLA** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:06 pm

It would be great if Ianetta was part of the deal, but I'[ll hold out for Ty.

Pom and White? Wow.

Internet blowing up.

by **Orenthal** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:06 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Neither of the pitchers is considered a sure fire ace prospect by anyone.

Okay so I fail to see the issue. Prospects that may never pan out, recent history on Indians drafts says they won't (I know more recenter they have shuffled draft staff around and are doing better), for a proven guy controlled for 2 years?

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:07 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
Adverb Harry wrote:This guy better never even get so much as a freaking hangnail. This is way too risky to bet it all on one player.

Yep, two unproven pitchers and a feh guy is certainly two much for two years of a top flight guy.

For sure.

It's not like teams hope to get a front line starter (and both of these guys are not considered aces) for every two front line prospects.

I don't give a crap about McBride. I do give a crap about dealing away the first two home-grown pitchers to come through this system since CC, when we'd have then under team control for the next six years. And it's not like we're trading for freaking Cy Young here. Yes, he's good, but that's all. This guy has plenty of warts himself and hasn't been the same lights-out pitcher he was at the beginning of 2010.

by **FortheWin** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:07 pm

Was told emphatically Ubaldo deal not done. But could happen quickly.

by **Rat_Tail** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:08 pm

Ubaldo and Wigginton sounds a lot better than just Ubaldo.

by **Dellucci TailGator** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:08 pm

One thing became very clear tonight: Chris Antonetti is not Mark Shapiro. He's more akin to John Hart. I don't know if it will work, but damn it's great to see this front office have some balls.

by **FortheWin** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:09 pm

I don't get how Pomeranz can be dealt. He can't be dealt till after August 15th unless hes the PTBN

by **TribeinLA** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:09 pm

Where does this leave us with Ludwick? If we get him, we're gonn have to do a swap from the Indians.

Fukudome better NOT be the only bat we went after.

by **e0y2e3** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:11 pm

I got it Adverb, better to pray your guys develop just because they are homegrown rather than get a sure fire guy who has been an ace in his career and has a ridiculous home/away split right now.

Yep.

There comes a point where you have to load up for a run as a small market team. They believe they are at that point. Right or wrong, you have to respect the perspective that they honestly believe they have a shot for a three year run at the WS and are going to try and make that happen.

Sure it could backfire, but I'd prefer it backfiring rather than having a so so team where the prospects don't develop in time followed by more of the same.

And yes, they need to change more about the roster to win a WS and if they don't make more moves over the next year this was stupid. But you are going nuts about nothing right now.

And it's not like they traded CC w/ either of these two.

by **FortheWin** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:13 pm

Ubaldo is warming up in SDP

by **Dellucci TailGator** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:14 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Sure it could backfire, but I'd prefer it backfiring rather than having a so so team where the prospects don't develop in time followed by more of the same.

I'd point to the 2008 and 2009 teams where perhaps the Indians didn't go for it. After that 2007 season, the Indians sat on their butts and hoped their farm system would supplement the core at the big leagues. It turned into a disaster.

When you have Choo, Hafner and Santana under contract, you have to do something with it. Pairing Masterson and Ubaldo means you can go into a playoff series next year against the Yankees and BEAT THEM. Not just get there, but win.

by **Orenthal** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:15 pm

Uh, White had how many Major league starts? Pom? But, but they are the best we have had in years... That doesn't seem a very convincing arguement against adding a proven ace...???

4.20ERA
2 CG's
1 SHO
'bout a K an Inning.
Before last start was trending nicely.
Other teams chasin'

^down year

by **swerb** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:15 pm

JeffPassan Jeff Passan
Just confirmed @TroyRenck report that LHP Drew Pomeranz, RHP Alex White and 1B Matt McBride will be Colorado's package for Ubaldo Jimenez.

by **Rat_Tail** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:16 pm

If this trade does happen you guys have actually made me feel better about losing our top pitching prospects. Better than Kipnis and Chiz right?

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:17 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I got it Adverb, better to pray your guys develop just because they are homegrown rather than get a sure fire guy who has been an ace in his career and has a ridiculous home/away split right now.

Yep.

There comes a point where you have to load up for a run as a small market team. They believe they are at that point. Right or wrong, you have to respect the perspective that they honestly believe they have a shot for a three year run at the WS and are going to try and make that happen.

Sure it could backfire, but I'd prefer it backfiring rather than having a so so team where the prospects don't develop in time followed by more of the same.

And yes, they need to change more about the roster to win a WS and if they don't make more moves over the next year this was stupid. But you are going nuts about nothing right now.

And it's not like they traded CC w/ either of these two.

We're on track to be under .500 after tomorrow. White has already had success here this year, and Pomeranz is set to be up early next year. That's TWO guys with the potential to be very good pitchers right away. Yes, Jiminez is very good too, but he's not quite elite, and he's just one guy. This could very quickly turn into addition by subtraction.

by **bookelly** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:18 pm

I think the emergence of Gomez and Huff in recent weeks makes this trade possible. Now our '12 rotation shakes out;

Jiminez - Ace
Masterson - potential ace
Fausto - potential ace, but a really good #3
little CC - great #4
Tomlin - Best #5 in baseball
Huff - Lefty with stuff that is playing up as he matures
Gomez - just threw a AAA perfect game
McCalister - not bad for your #8 guy
Rondon - see above
Talbot - see above

That's ten guys with quality starts at the MLB level (except Rondon). That's a pretty damn good staff there. Pomeranz will be missed for sure, but we just don't know how good he will be. White also, he is going to be a very good #2 or #3 starter for a long time. McBride - meh.

by **Rat_Tail** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:18 pm

If this trade does happen you guys have actually made me feel better about losing our top pitching prospects. Better than Kipnis and Chiz right?

by **e0y2e3** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:20 pm

Yep, you are convinced White and Pomz, with a total of a handful of starts between them, are going to be #2 at least caliber pitchers DURING THIS FEW YEAR WINDOW.

That is insanity.

I'm not going to keep talking to you, but you need to fucking take a Xanex.

by **Rat_Tail** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:20 pm

And does Ubaldo's 2013 and 2014 team options transfer to the Tribe?

by **Dellucci TailGator** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:20 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:If this trade does happen you guys have actually made me feel better about losing our top pitching prospects. Better than Kipnis and Chiz right?

I'll venture to say Pomeranz and White are more talented, but Kipnis and Chiz are more vital to the team's success over the next three seasons. This team still needs to upgrade the offense this offseason. But in the rotation, they have five solid guys locked up for the next few years. If you trade Kipnis, there's NOBODY to play second anytime soon. Ditto with Chiz.

by **e0y2e3** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:20 pm

And Ubaldo has been elite in this league and right now has elite numbers away from Coors. To say otherwise is beyond disingenuous.

by **FortheWin** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:21 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:And does Ubaldo's 2013 and 2014 team options transfer to the Tribe?

I don't think he has a team option for 2013 and I don't think it does for 2014 not sure though

by **DrPoove** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:21 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Yep, you are convinced White and Pomz, with a total of a handful of starts between them, are going to be #2 at least caliber pitchers DURING THIS FEW YEAR WINDOW.

That is insanity.

I'm not going to keep talking to you, but you need to fucking take a Xanex.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Seriously.

by **dazindiansfanuk** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:21 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:And does Ubaldo's 2013 and 2014 team options transfer to the Tribe?

2013 option does..... Ubaldo can waive 2014 option if traded.

by **e0y2e3** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:22 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:And does Ubaldo's 2013 and 2014 team options transfer to the Tribe?

According to Peeks the 2014 doesn't so he is locked up for two years after this season opposed to three.

by **Orenthal** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:23 pm

The blueprint is 5 year waits between 2-3 year windows of contention. You just grabbed a bonafide ace for nearly the duration of that window. We have the other horses to man the 2 and 3 spots...

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:24 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Yep, you are convinced White and Pomz, with a total of a handful of starts between them, are going to be #2 at least caliber pitchers DURING THIS FEW YEAR WINDOW.

That is insanity.

I'm not going to keep talking to you, but you need to fucking take a Xanex.

Ok. You think this is a great trade, and I'm not so sure. We're both allowed to have our opinions. You don't have to insult or criticize me. I certainly didn't with you.

by **swerb** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:24 pm

MLBastian Jordan Bastian
According to @ScottMCBSSports, Indians also working to reel in Ludwick by tonight or tomorrow morning.

by **e0y2e3** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:24 pm

No, you don't just think this isn't a great trade. You are screaming like it is in the end of civilization and melting all over the boards. Put yourself back together, you're acting like a little kid that just lost his favorite candy.

by **dazindiansfanuk** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:25 pm

FortheWin wrote:I don't get how Pomeranz can be dealt. He can't be dealt till after August 15th unless hes the PTBN

That's how it would work..... he'd be the PTBNL in the deal and then confirmed after Aug 15th.

by **Erie Warrior** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:27 pm

e0y2e3 wrote: DURING THIS FEW YEAR WINDOW.

Is this the window? Guess it is now.

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:27 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:No, you don't just think this isn't a great trade. You are screaming like it is in the end of civilization and melting all over the boards. Put yourself back together, you're acting like a little kid that just lost his favorite candy.

I'm not the only one, my friend. And that was mostly when it appeared Kipnis and/or Chisenhall were involved, as well.

by **e0y2e3** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:28 pm

Obviously is to the org and if it isn't well, they were fucked regardless.

by **Dellucci TailGator** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:28 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote: DURING THIS FEW YEAR WINDOW.

Is this the window? Guess it is now.

Choo's free agency and when Hafner gets old is the closing of the window. So they've got about two years. Masterson will need a big deal in a few years too, if he stays at this level.

The 2005 Indians had to be torn down because of age in 2006. The 2007 window closed in 2007.

Shapiro always oversold how long his team's windows were.

by **e0y2e3** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:28 pm

Adverb Harry wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:No, you don't just think this isn't a great trade. You are screaming like it is in the end of civilization and melting all over the boards. Put yourself back together, you're acting like a little kid that just lost his favorite candy.

I'm not the only one, my friend. And that was mostly when it appeared Kipnis and/or Chisenhall were involved, as well.

No, you're just the one that has about forty posts melting in an hour versus the others w/ one or two.

That defines acting like a child.

by **plincoln** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:28 pm

For those concerned with Jimenez' less-than-awesome ERA, remember he is pitching half his games in Colorado. And it's not as if he's a total 2010 fluke.

Top 5 road ERA for starters, 2009-2011 (via fangraphs.com):

Felix Hernandez 2.48
Roy Halladay 2.61
Tim Lincecum 2.93
Clay Buchholz 2.94
Ubaldo Jimenez 3.04

...and for those who like it sabermetric style, top 5 road FIP, 2009-2011:

Justin Verlander 2.89
Clayton Kershaw 3.00
Tim Lincecum 3.02
Ubaldo Jimenez 3.03
Roy Halladay 3.04

Not sure we won't live to regret this one, but I don't know how much I can argue with locking up a legit ace for 2 more years.

by **idoctribefan** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:29 pm

i am undecided as to whether I am pro or con on this trade, but ubaldo isn't worth anything if we can't fucking score. shit this offense has been pathetic. 7 runs in the last 59 innings.

by **redneckofsc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:30 pm

Not sure how I feel about the trade, since pitching wasn't our problem, but how is it the Rockies get a shit load more than we got for Lee and CC?

by **Erie Warrior** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:30 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Obviously is to the org and if it isn't well, they were fucked regardless.

I just haven't seen the hitting yet, flashes, but no consistency.

Fuck it, let's go bowling.

by **e0y2e3** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:31 pm

redneckofsc wrote:Not sure how I feel about the trade, since pitching wasn't our problem, but how is it the Rockies get a shit load more than we got for Lee and CC?

Length of time left on his deal.

Young pitchers keep getting dealt earlier and earlier for a reason.

by **Dellucci TailGator** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:31 pm

redneckofsc wrote:Not sure how I feel about the trade, since pitching wasn't our problem, but how is it the Rockies get a shit load more than we got for Lee and CC?

Did Milwaukee get to keep CC Sabathia for two more seasons for $4 million?

by **bac5665** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:31 pm

I have no problem getting Jimenez, but it's just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic without a real bat in the lineup. We have no one right now and if we're getting Jimenez then we won't have the ability to get that bat. And we need that bat or the rest doesn't matter.

by **e0y2e3** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:31 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Obviously is to the org and if it isn't well, they were fucked regardless.

I just haven't seen the hitting yet, flashes, but no consistency.

Fuck it, let's go bowling.

Yeah I think they have a ton of faith in Choo coming back, Santana continuing to develop, and Kip and Chiz next year.

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:32 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
Adverb Harry wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:No, you don't just think this isn't a great trade. You are screaming like it is in the end of civilization and melting all over the boards. Put yourself back together, you're acting like a little kid that just lost his favorite candy.

I'm not the only one, my friend. And that was mostly when it appeared Kipnis and/or Chisenhall were involved, as well.

No, you're just the one that has about forty posts melting in an hour versus the others w/ one or two.

That defines acting like a child.

Again, not the only one who did. Look around. And I didn't get personal. And I'm done.

by **dazindiansfanuk** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:32 pm

redneckofsc wrote:Not sure how I feel about the trade, since pitching wasn't our problem, but how is it the Rockies get a shit load more than we got for Lee and CC?

All about control, 'Neck.

CC was a rental and Lee had a year less control than Ubaldo.

It's still a lot to give up if true though.

by **Rat_Tail** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:32 pm

Ubaldo still warming up?

My heads about to explode. I'm going to be disappointed if this doesn't end up happening now.

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