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Well Done Front Office...

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Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:31 pm

Matt Lawson, the guy we traded Aaron Laffey for, has retired. Our front office is amazing. I know Laffey wasn't a Cy Young winner but we got absolutely nothing for him. Awesome.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:26 pm

You must be having a slow day if this bothers you that much.

Here is the blurb that Baseball America had to analyze the deal. When someone says your upside as a 25 year old in your second year in AA is utility infielder, you've got nowhere to go but home.

Included as a throw-in in the Mariners-Rangers Cliff Lee trade last June, Lawson finds himself on the move yet again. In fact, he has a chance to appear in all three Double-A leagues in roughly the same calendar year if he opens this season with Akron of the Eastern League. Lawson checked off the Texas and Southern leagues in 2010. His range of abilities make him a likely utility player down the road, but probably one limited to second base and left field because of a below-average arm. Lawson has some home-run power, but his game is centered on grinding out at-bats and lining the ball into the gaps. An absolute best case would be Ryan Raburn, though Lawson has less power and less arm strength.

Meh.

They moved Laffey because we didn't need a left handed reliever and he was never going to cut it as a full-time starter, so they gave him a shot someplace else. Not something to lose sleep over.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:28 pm

Laffey was a nice player, but I agree he was never gonna make it as a starter. Although he is having a pretty good year for the fighting Wedgies.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:39 pm

I realize that Lawson was never going to he a star, but it just seems that the FO rushed through this trade. Maybe I'm just upset over recent on idle struggles but my patience with this FO is wearing.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:52 pm

Also, Jason Knapp, one of the prizes from the Cliff Lee deal had season ending shoulder surgery today and will miss th rest of the season. Another guy that Shitpiro just had to have. This guy does have gray stuff but he can't stay healthy. I just hope he isn't another Adam Miller.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby TonyIPI » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:57 pm

Lawson thing is no surprise. He was a throw in to fill in depth in the infield at AAA/AA instead of just taking cash in the deal. Absolutely no upside to that deal. Not every deal is made with the ML roster in mind.

As for Knapp, as I noted a few days ago in another post, he is out for the year. Tough news for him and the org. Guy was the best player in the trade, and ever since his medical has been horrible. As I noted last year or the offseason after the deal, teams can only do so much with preventing medical disasters like this. You can't put the guy through an MRI or all those tests. Not allowed. So you often don't know the true health of a player until you get them and they get hurt. You can only perform a physical at the time of the trade and review any medical information already on file. Indians just unlucky on this one.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:02 pm

TonyIPI wrote:Lawson thing is no surprise. He was a throw in to fill in depth in the infield at AAA/AA instead of just taking cash in the deal. Absolutely no upside to that deal. Not every deal is made with the ML roster in mind.

As for Knapp, as I noted a few days ago in another post, he is out for the year. Tough news for him and the org. Guy was the best player in the trade, and ever since his medical has been horrible. As I noted last year or the offseason after the deal, teams can only do so much with preventing medical disasters like this. You can't put the guy through an MRI or all those tests. Not allowed. So you often don't know the true health of a player until you get them and they get hurt. You can only perform a physical at the time of the trade and review any medical information already on file. Indians just unlucky on this one.

Yes, but wasn't he hurt when we traded for him though? Wasn't he done for the season at therime of the trade?
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:03 pm

Maybe we should have sent him back to the Mariners now that Wedge is their manager. After all, the article said "his game is centered on grinding out at-bats". Wedge does love them grinders!

And Knapp is out again? Wow, lasted three months from when this story was posted on the Tribe website on March 17th. Finally healthy, Knapp ready to meet potential Poor kid will never make it out of the minors...
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:08 pm

Yep to all of that. The injury rate for pitchers is ridiculous which is one reason the Indians have made it a habit of late to acquire huge quantities of power arms and pitching. They know going in many will fail and many others will get hurt. But the number of quality arms means a better chance that a few get through and make an impact at the big league level.

It's always been this way for pitchers and it'll never change. The best you can hope for is they continue to stockpile upside arms and that they're identifying, selecting and developing as many as they can.

Aaron Laffey wasn't an upside arm and was a guy the Indians let throw 300 mediocre innings for them. This just doesn't register on the Pissed-o-Meter for me at all.



TonyIPI wrote:Lawson thing is no surprise. He was a throw in to fill in depth in the infield at AAA/AA instead of just taking cash in the deal. Absolutely no upside to that deal. Not every deal is made with the ML roster in mind.

As for Knapp, as I noted a few days ago in another post, he is out for the year. Tough news for him and the org. Guy was the best player in the trade, and ever since his medical has been horrible. As I noted last year or the offseason after the deal, teams can only do so much with preventing medical disasters like this. You can't put the guy through an MRI or all those tests. Not allowed. So you often don't know the true health of a player until you get them and they get hurt. You can only perform a physical at the time of the trade and review any medical information already on file. Indians just unlucky on this one.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby Eckersley » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:18 pm

TonyIPI wrote: As I noted last year or the offseason after the deal, teams can only do so much with preventing medical disasters like this. You can't put the guy through an MRI or all those tests. Not allowed. So you often don't know the true health of a player until you get them and they get hurt.

Knapp had an injury history before the trade. Not very wise to trade a Cy Young winner & not have the key piece of the trade a picture of health.

Hopefully Antonetti will do better than his predecessor.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:19 pm

I guess my frustration with the whole Knapp thing stems from the fact that at the time of the trade, we didn't ge any of Philadelphia's top four prospects, the best of which vein JA Happ. None. We didn't get one. Instead, the Phillies had no problem parting ways with two of them in the Roy Halladay deal. Shapiro got suckered into taking less because he wanted to get a deal done now.

We got Marson, Carrasco, Donald and Knapp. Marson has very good defensive skills but his bat is lacking. Carrasco has had two great starts in a row and let's hope that this is a sign of things to come. Donald is a solid utility player and is great at screwing up perfect games. However, does anyone see him being great? Knapp has electric stuff and just needs to get healthy. Hopefully I happens.

I love this team and would love nothing more to see them all work out. I just get frustrated when I don't think we get equal value in trades.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:20 pm

Eckersley wrote:TonyIPI wrote: As I noted last year or the offseason after the deal, teams can only do so much with preventing medical disasters like this. You can't put the guy through an MRI or all those tests. Not allowed. So you often don't know the true health of a player until you get them and they get hurt.

Knapp had an injury history before the trade. Not very wise to trade a Cy Young winner & not have the key piece of the trade a picture of health.

Hopefully Antonetti will do better than his predecessor.

This. Antonetti needs to be better at evaluating trades in order for this team to ever be a contender.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:49 pm

Please.

Happ had elbow issues that shut him down in 2007 and Drabek had Tommy John surgery 4 years ago not to mention much publicized bouts of being an asshole before that.

And where is he now while Carrasco looks to be fulfilling a lot of people's thoughts that he was a 'pick to click' this season?

Pick your poison. If you're looking for healthy pitchers here's wishing you all the best.

Keep piling up guys that can throw. Most of 'em already have or soon will have scars.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:11 pm

peeker643 wrote:Please.

Happ had elbow issues that shut him down in 2007 and Drabek had Tommy John surgery 4 years ago not to mention much publicized bouts of being an asshole before that.

And where is he now while Carrasco looks to be fulfilling a lot of people's thoughts that he was a 'pick to click' this season?

Pick your poison. If you're looking for healthy pitchers here's wishing you all the best.

Keep piling up guys that can throw. Most of 'em already have or soon will have scars.

You make good points. I guess my frustration with this team is just too much right now.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:40 pm

I'm completely bummed about the play of the team but damn, people have really selective memories when it comes to evaluating the trades of mark shapiro.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:47 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I'm completely bummed about the play of the team but damn, people have really selective memories when it comes to evaluating the trades of mark shapiro.

It's not just his trades, his drafting has been horrible as well. Again, I'm just looking for people to blame right now. This team needs to get their heads out of their asses.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:56 pm

I agree we got hosed in the Lee trade. God how good would Dominic Brown look in this organization right now? It would force our bums( Choo and Grady) to actually earn their pay checks. I was a fan of little CC when we got him, and hes really starting to look solid. He DOES have 4 plus pitches. Marson sucks, and everybody and their mom knew Knapp was always injured and would probably never stay healthy before we traded for him. So yea I agree, the Lee trade was a massive bust. As is the CC deal. Laporta is a bum who I have no confidence in. Bryson was never a big prospect, and Brantley turned out to be the best part of the trade ( and he was the PTBNL). At least we didnt go after Taylor Green.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:30 pm

andrew6586 wrote:Also, Jason Knapp, one of the prizes from the Cliff Lee deal had season ending shoulder surgery today and will miss th rest of the season.



yeah that one hurts.

Looks like its up to little CC to try to save any sake of getting value in that trade
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby TonyIPI » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:08 am

Eckersley wrote:TonyIPI wrote: As I noted last year or the offseason after the deal, teams can only do so much with preventing medical disasters like this. You can't put the guy through an MRI or all those tests. Not allowed. So you often don't know the true health of a player until you get them and they get hurt.

Knapp had an injury history before the trade. Not very wise to trade a Cy Young winner & not have the key piece of the trade a picture of health.

Hopefully Antonetti will do better than his predecessor.


I may be mistaken as my memory may be off, but the only issue Knapp had was bicep tendonitis. I know the bicep tendonitis is 100% correct as to when we acquired him, just not sure without checking (lazy this morning) if he had injuries prior. There just were no warnings about the shoulder as the tendonitis is common and not considered serious or a concern at all. Again, without an MRI or whatever to review, they made the call on his talent. Guys just get hurt. Sorta like Adam Miller and Michael Aubrey...two very good draft picks, but just got hurt. Hard to fault the front office for any team when stuff like that happens.

And Dominic Brown was completely off limits in that deal, though the Phillies did offer Michael Taylor but we opted for Donald and Marson instead (would have been Carrasco, Taylor, Knapp). And at the time of the trade Knapp was viewed in the industry as the best or second best prospect in the Phillies org.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby paulcousineau » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:23 am

andrew6586 wrote:I guess my frustration with the whole Knapp thing stems from the fact that at the time of the trade, we didn't ge any of Philadelphia's top four prospects, the best of which vein JA Happ. None. We didn't get one. Instead, the Phillies had no problem parting ways with two of them in the Roy Halladay deal. Shapiro got suckered into taking less because he wanted to get a deal done now.

No question the Knapp thing is frustrating, but the 3 guys the Blue Jays got for Halladay are Drabek (just sent down to AAA), Michael Taylor (traded to the A's, where he is a 25-year-old OF with an .832 OPS in AAA right now), and Travis d'Arnaud (a 21-year-old OF in AA, who is admittedly tearing it up)...so if you're going to use the Halladay deal as what the Indians should have held out for, it might be worth looking at what those "top prospects" that went from Philly to Toronto are doing now.

Because none of those guys are currently on the Blue Jays roster (nor is the player that eventually made his way into the Toronto organization for Taylor) while the Indians at least have Carrasco and Marson contributing and showing some signs.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:34 am

Knapp threw for Lake County after we got him that season. Happ sucks. Dom Brown was never going to be involved in any trade, so there's no point in pining for him. Drabek just got sent down to AAA, as Pauly pointed out.

We got a lot more for Lee than Philly did. Seattle got Smoak and nothing else. Shapiro has an excellent trade history, and Antonetti is doing fine. The drafts have been much better the past few years.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:32 am

paulcousineau wrote:
andrew6586 wrote:I guess my frustration with the whole Knapp thing stems from the fact that at the time of the trade, we didn't ge any of Philadelphia's top four prospects, the best of which vein JA Happ. None. We didn't get one. Instead, the Phillies had no problem parting ways with two of them in the Roy Halladay deal. Shapiro got suckered into taking less because he wanted to get a deal done now.

No question the Knapp thing is frustrating, but the 3 guys the Blue Jays got for Halladay are Drabek (just sent down to AAA), Michael Taylor (traded to the A's, where he is a 25-year-old OF with an .832 OPS in AAA right now), and Travis d'Arnaud (a 21-year-old OF in AA, who is admittedly tearing it up)...so if you're going to use the Halladay deal as what the Indians should have held out for, it might be worth looking at what those "top prospects" that went from Philly to Toronto are doing now.

Because none of those guys are currently on the Blue Jays roster (nor is the player that eventually made his way into the Toronto organization for Taylor) while the Indians at least have Carrasco and Marson contributing and showing some signs.



At the time of the trade I badly wanted Taylor instead of Marson/Donald. Right now.... eh; Lou Marson might be the best of that bunch. Guy is a legitimate MLB catcher on the defensive side and, though his stats are almost identical, he seems to have improved on his Tofu-Lou hitting last year whereby he's actually making solid contact, even if they aren't resulting in hits. Sucks that Knapp is down again but Carrasco seems to be taking the right steps to fulfill his promise as the Phillies #1 prospect for something like 3 years in a row.

And unless the Jays moved him, I remember D'Arnaud being a catcher. If they did move him, that deal is even worse for them now as catcher is a much more valuable position than LF. And to Peeks point of Drabek being an asshole (admittedly I wanted him badly for Cliff Lee), he's now an asshole in AAA after posting an ERA of almost 6 in his starts this year. Will he find it? Maybe, but pitchers with better pedigree's than him have flamed out so who knows.

Seems the only winner in any of the Cliff Lee trades were the Mariners just by virtue of getting Justin Smoak.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby paulcousineau » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:40 pm

You are right rebel...D'Arnaud is a catcher. And a pretty good-looking one at that, even if he's still in AA.
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Re: Well Done Front Office...

Unread postby scrambler » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:38 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
paulcousineau wrote:[quote="andrew6586Seems the only winner in any of the Cliff Lee trades were the Mariners just by virtue of getting Justin Smoak.


That's strange. The current best player by a large margin on the Cleveland roster in the month of June came in the cliff lee trade. Granted, it's only two starts. But his stuff is astronomically better than anyone in the current starting rotation I guess. I mean the guy missed 3 or 4 starts and is still on pace to win 15 games. I'm not getting any of this.
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