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Does Fausto have any trade value ...

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Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Toxicadam » Tue May 31, 2011 11:00 am

and should we trade him at the deadline?


I know this seems like a reactionary post based on yesterday's performance, but I have been thinking about it for a few weeks as the likelihood of the Tribe still contending during the trade deadline has increased.

Fausto is still owed just under 7 million for next year, with club options for 2012-2014 thereafter. Keep in mind that 7 million is still a decent bargain for an MLB starter. For example, Jake Westbrook will be making 8+ million a year for the next few years as a Cardinal.

It seems to me, with our (relative) wealth of guys ready to make the step up to the big leagues from AAA (Jeanmar, McAllister, White) that Fausto is extremely expendable. If we do make the playoffs this year, would Fausto even be one of our top three pitchers going into that first round?
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby pup » Tue May 31, 2011 11:09 am

Toxicadam wrote:and should we trade him at the deadline?

I know this seems like a reactionary post based on yesterday's performance, but I have been thinking about it for a few weeks as the likelihood of the Tribe still contending during the trade deadline has increased.

Fausto is still owed just under 7 million for next year, with club options for 2012-2014 thereafter. Keep in mind that 7 million is still a decent bargain for an MLB starter. For example, Jake Westbrook will be making 8+ million a year for the next few years as a Cardinal.

It seems to me, with our (relative) wealth of guys ready to make the step up to the big leagues from AAA (Jeanmar, McAllister, White) that Fausto is extremely expendable. If we do make the playoffs this year, would Fausto even be one of our top three pitchers going into that first round?


Yes he does.
No we shouldn't.
Yes he would.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Tue May 31, 2011 12:58 pm

Toxicadam wrote:It seems to me, with our (relative) wealth of guys ready to make the step up to the big leagues from AAA (Jeanmar, McAllister, White) that Fausto is extremely expendable. If we do make the playoffs this year, would Fausto even be one of our top three pitchers going into that first round?


Really? Even relative wealth is too strong a term. He's still the best pitcher on the team.

They might deal him, but not because he's had a few bad outings.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Tue May 31, 2011 1:15 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
Toxicadam wrote:It seems to me, with our (relative) wealth of guys ready to make the step up to the big leagues from AAA (Jeanmar, McAllister, White) that Fausto is extremely expendable. If we do make the playoffs this year, would Fausto even be one of our top three pitchers going into that first round?


Really? Even relative wealth is too strong a term. He's still the best pitcher on the team.

They might deal him, but not because he's had a few bad outings.


All history and 'stuff' aside. In the here and now, Josh Tomlin is our best pitcher. Fausto may have better stuff, but Tomlin has only had one mediocre outing this entire season. It might not stand up long term, but that's how I feel right now. Fausto's got better stuff, but Tomlin's pitching better.

For me, Fausto is just too damn unpredictable, which is why he'll never be considered a true #1 pitcher. With him, you just never know which Fausto's gonna show. He's got the stuff, but I just never feel comfortable when he's scheduled to start.

Personally, I feel his trade value is fairly low right now. No-one's gonna give up a ton for him, not enough for us to consider dealing him. We are much better off if he rights the ship and pitches well for us, not someone else.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Tue May 31, 2011 1:28 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:For me, Fausto is just too damn unpredictable, which is why he'll never be considered a true #1 pitcher. With him, you just never know which Fausto's gonna show. He's got the stuff, but I just never feel comfortable when he's scheduled to start.


Very true, but doesn't change the fact the he is Cleveland's #1. Certainly Tomlin has been great, but small sample size excludes him from consideration. For now. And they would be lucky to get a few farmhands with arm problems for Fausto right now.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue May 31, 2011 1:52 pm

pup wrote:
Toxicadam wrote:and should we trade him at the deadline?

I know this seems like a reactionary post based on yesterday's performance, but I have been thinking about it for a few weeks as the likelihood of the Tribe still contending during the trade deadline has increased.

Fausto is still owed just under 7 million for next year, with club options for 2012-2014 thereafter. Keep in mind that 7 million is still a decent bargain for an MLB starter. For example, Jake Westbrook will be making 8+ million a year for the next few years as a Cardinal.

It seems to me, with our (relative) wealth of guys ready to make the step up to the big leagues from AAA (Jeanmar, McAllister, White) that Fausto is extremely expendable. If we do make the playoffs this year, would Fausto even be one of our top three pitchers going into that first round?


Yes he does.
No we shouldn't.
Yes he would.


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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Tue May 31, 2011 2:21 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
WiscTribeFan wrote:For me, Fausto is just too damn unpredictable, which is why he'll never be considered a true #1 pitcher. With him, you just never know which Fausto's gonna show. He's got the stuff, but I just never feel comfortable when he's scheduled to start.


Very true, but doesn't change the fact the he is Cleveland's #1. Certainly Tomlin has been great, but small sample size excludes him from consideration. For now. And they would be lucky to get a few farmhands with arm problems for Fausto right now.


I don't disagree about Tomlin's lack of experience. Thing is, you tell me we need to win one game and both are available, I don't immediately pick Fausto, at least not without a lot of thought and looking at his recent outings. He's fragile, and that's troubling.

Fausto is our default #1 because we don't have one, and is also why a lot of pundits don't understand how we've won as many games as we have.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Bigfist » Tue May 31, 2011 2:35 pm

Despite everything, I still think Fausto has a problem between his ears..and that comes from someone who really likes him. Bad innings seem to snowball on him...he really has trouble at times picking up his team or keeping the damage to a minimum. Tomlin is much better in that respect. Still, Tomlin needs to be very near perfect to succeed.

I will point out that many of the same comments made in a negative way about Fausto were made about CC for years as well. It took CC a number of years to be considered an ace. Not saying that Fausto will ever be a true ace (I think #2 on a good team is his upside), but I would not write him off yet.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue May 31, 2011 2:39 pm

Fausto's opponents in 12 starts:

Mark Buehrle
Jon Lester
Dan Haren (x2)
Brad Bergesen
Brian Duensing
Kyle Davies
Tyson Ross
Doug Fister
Gavin Floyd
Josh Beckett
JoJo Reyes

Now how many of those games do we expect him to win outright? I'd say 4 or so he has a good chance. 2 or 3 are a toss-up, and then Lester, Haren x2, and Beckett.

He's also gotten 3.87 runs of support. He's had to be mistake-free and the 9 HR allowed are proof that he hasn't been able to be.

Fausto will never win a lot of games because half or more of his starts are going to come against true #1 starters or really good #2's. Fausto is neither of these. He's a fringe 2, more appropriately a 3 with who he is as a pitcher right now.

To answer the original question, he has more value to us than he has to other teams. He wouldn't be traded because we'd never get back what he's worth to us.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby paulcousineau » Tue May 31, 2011 2:48 pm

Not sure if this explains the problem or is a by-product of the problem:
Fausto with bases empty
.191 BA / .254 OBP / .275 SLG / .529 OPS with 13 BB and 35 K in 193 PA

Fausto with runners on
.348 BA / .403 OBP / .617 SLG / 1.020 OPS with 9 BB and 15 K in 131 PA

Whether it's pitching out of the stretch or getting rattled by baserunners, that's a HUGE difference in terms of how hitters fare against him depending upon whether there are runners on base or not.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue May 31, 2011 2:57 pm

paulcousineau wrote:Not sure if this explains the problem or is a by-product of the problem:
Fausto with bases empty
.191 BA / .254 OBP / .275 SLG / .529 OPS with 13 BB and 35 K in 193 PA

Fausto with runners on
.348 BA / .403 OBP / .617 SLG / 1.020 OPS with 9 BB and 15 K in 131 PA

Whether it's pitching out of the stretch or getting rattled by baserunners, that's a HUGE difference in terms of how hitters fare against him depending upon whether there are runners on base or not.


I was thinking exactly this same thing yesterday. Meant to look after the game.

He tends to have the issues with his shoulder flying open when pitching from the stretch. Usually, he makes the in-game adjustment and pitches well for a couple innings and then seems to revert back to the bad mechanics when he gets tired late in a ballgame.

He needs to slow the game down. He gets antsy with runners on base. And to be honest, I don't think Santana's helped him one bit.

Might be a little unfair to do this, but in Santana's 22 games catching Carmona, 4.81 ERA (includes every Fausto start this season). In Marson's 12 games, 3.12 ERA.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby paulcousineau » Tue May 31, 2011 3:12 pm

skatingtripods wrote:He needs to slow the game down. He gets antsy with runners on base. And to be honest, I don't think Santana's helped him one bit.

It was interesting that Acta came out to settle him down at one point yesterday...that's just not normal unless Santana has no way to calm Fausto.

Where's Tony Pena to slap his pitcher across the face when you need him?
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Bigfist » Tue May 31, 2011 3:16 pm

paulcousineau wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:He needs to slow the game down. He gets antsy with runners on base. And to be honest, I don't think Santana's helped him one bit.

It was interesting that Acta came out to settle him down at one point yesterday...that's just not normal unless Santana has no way to calm Fausto.

Where's Tony Pena to slap his pitcher across the face when you need him?


Didn't the next guy double with the bases loaded after Acta's "calming" visit? First pitch, if I remember right.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby The Brook » Tue May 31, 2011 3:35 pm

Opposite field single, then a double.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue May 31, 2011 3:50 pm

paulcousineau wrote:Not sure if this explains the problem or is a by-product of the problem:
Fausto with bases empty
.191 BA / .254 OBP / .275 SLG / .529 OPS with 13 BB and 35 K in 193 PA

Fausto with runners on
.348 BA / .403 OBP / .617 SLG / 1.020 OPS with 9 BB and 15 K in 131 PA

Whether it's pitching out of the stretch or getting rattled by baserunners, that's a HUGE difference in terms of how hitters fare against him depending upon whether there are runners on base or not.


He needs to stop hanging around with Carlos Carrasco. Kid is a bad influence on him.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue May 31, 2011 4:00 pm

paulcousineau wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:He needs to slow the game down. He gets antsy with runners on base. And to be honest, I don't think Santana's helped him one bit.

It was interesting that Acta came out to settle him down at one point yesterday...that's just not normal unless Santana has no way to calm Fausto.


Al can probably confirm this better than I can, but when you're getting battered like that, and you have a bit of an ego, Carmona might have been blaming Santana's pitch selection more than the fact that he was throwing beachballs.

They may have been in different chapters let alone on different pages.

I'm sensing that Santana's got quite an ego to himself. Might be best to get him at 1B every day. Your job as a catcher is not to have an ego, but to navigate the pitcher through the game. That's what Victor's best contribution was. Outside of clutch hits, dude could call a game and handle a pitching staff like a champ.

I haven't seen anything from Santana that would give me the impression that he can handle a staff/call a game. Seems like going to the mound is a last resort. Seems irritated when Belcher comes out and he has to go out there too. He may develop it, but when?

Just my observations. No real way to quantify it, I don't think.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Tue May 31, 2011 4:10 pm

With his injury last year and Posey's this year, they might be thinking to move his bat over to 1B sooner rather than later. Problem is, his bat isn't exactly bringing to the party what we all were expecting.

I'd imagine if LaPorta continues to middle around and Santana gets hot, a switch might be made in the next year or two. I can live with Marson's weak stick but excellent defense if he improves the pitching staff by being behind the dish.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Tue May 31, 2011 7:09 pm

IMO Masterson is without a doubt our best pitcher at the moment, with Tomlin a close second.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby OldDawg » Tue May 31, 2011 10:26 pm

You think of almost all of the really good pitchers, and one thing that seems to be in common is that the rarely ever show any emotion (whether they are dominating or struggling). For a pitcher, I think Fausto wears his emotions on his sleeves almost after every pitch. Dude needs to settle down and lock into a zone and stop over-reacting to every pitch. My humble and not greatly informed $0.02.

I remember (was it his rookie year) when opposing batters were claiming Fausto's sinker was virtually unhittable. He was actually in the discussion for the Cy Young Award that year, the year that CC actually got the CY for the Tribe that year. The same year we sent Cliff Lee to the minors, if I recall. The same year we blew the 3-1 series lead to the BoSox.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:10 am

skatingtripods wrote:
paulcousineau wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:He needs to slow the game down. He gets antsy with runners on base. And to be honest, I don't think Santana's helped him one bit.

It was interesting that Acta came out to settle him down at one point yesterday...that's just not normal unless Santana has no way to calm Fausto.


Al can probably confirm this better than I can, but when you're getting battered like that, and you have a bit of an ego, Carmona might have been blaming Santana's pitch selection more than the fact that he was throwing beachballs.

They may have been in different chapters let alone on different pages.

I'm sensing that Santana's got quite an ego to himself. Might be best to get him at 1B every day. Your job as a catcher is not to have an ego, but to navigate the pitcher through the game. That's what Victor's best contribution was. Outside of clutch hits, dude could call a game and handle a pitching staff like a champ.

I haven't seen anything from Santana that would give me the impression that he can handle a staff/call a game. Seems like going to the mound is a last resort. Seems irritated when Belcher comes out and he has to go out there too. He may develop it, but when?

Just my observations. No real way to quantify it, I don't think.


Like you said, this is one of those things that is just impossible for anyone outside the org to know. Some pitchers need to be coddled, talked to and told that everything's going to be all right. Some pitchers just need to work themselves through it and going to the mound is the last thing you want to do when they struggle. One of my teammates in college (hi P) would literaly fight you if you went to the mound after he gave up a bomb. He just wanted the ball back and a chance to get back to work.

Catching is the hardest position in sports, with quarterback a close 2nd. You have to be the coach on the field, the pitchers best friend and his shrink all in one. And you have to be that for everyone on the staff, not just the ace. Personalities naturally clash from time to time, but you have to know how to handle everybody. Tony Pena is a great example. He knew that he had to smack Joe Table in the face with his glove, and he knew that if a guy like Orel Hershiser was shaking him off, there was a damn good reason for it. It is impossible to overstate how important this relationship is, and it is also impossible to capture it in numbers. It's why a guy like Greg Maddux always had a personal catcher. It's a big deal. And it can be a drain on you at the plate if you let it.

ML catchers can take years to fully develop. It's why you see guys like Bryce Harper and Wil Meyers get moved to the OF. Their bats are advanced enough that they will be ready to hit ML pitching long before they will be ready to catch it. Santana has only been a catcher for a few years now. His development behind the plate is one reason they tried to take it slow with him getting to the big league level, but his bat forced the issue. Is he ready to be a major league catcher? Maybe. It's tough to say, and very few people outside that locker room really know for sure. Maybe he and Carmona are fine, maybe they aren't. I really don't know. I do remember that he and Rage Perez got into it in spring training once.

I'm going to stop now because this post is plenty long enough, but if people are really interested, I could do an entire article on the pitcher-catcher relationship and catcher development.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby justmebd » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:38 am

Fausto seems like diminishing returns at this point. The only thing consistent about him is his inconsistency.

If Fausto throws a few bad pitches, he no longer seems able to work through it and just starts throwing batting practice.

I know trading him seems like a bad idea, but this is an organization who traded Cliff Lee because they thought he was a one-year wonder. (True story, I spoke to a person inside the tribe organization who revealed that to me last year when I started berating them over the move.)
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:45 am

gotribe31 wrote:I'm going to stop now because this post is plenty long enough, but if people are really interested, I could do an entire article on the pitcher-catcher relationship and catcher development.


I'd read it. It's one of the most pressing issues, IMO, with the Indians right now, so it's highly relevant and should be really informative.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby scrambler » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:52 am

So tomlin and Masterson have pitched above expectations, Carrasco has pitched to expectations, Talbot has been injured, and White came up and pitched to expectations and the bullpen has been magnificent. And we have issues if Santana can handle catching??

Everyone is way, way overreacting to Carmona. He has pitched two bad games against the Chisox, one against Minny, and one against Toronto. I think every single one of his other starts has been good...yeah he faded late against Seattle, and gave up 4 to Boston but both of those were good starts. I'll generally take 4 runs in 8 innings from him. 8 of his 12 starts he's given up 4 runs or less. 6 of his first 9 starts were official quality starts and the Seattle one was darn near...so 7 of his first 9 were good starts. He's simply thrown 2 really bad games in his last 3, that's it. It's not panic time or even close.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby scrambler » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:15 am

Carmona is pitching exactly as he did in 2010 for the most part and I will take that guy all day long. Looking at the peripherals...his WHIP and BAA are actually down from last year even including his last 3 starts and before those last 3 his ERA was right where it was last year. I think we will never see 2007 Fausto nor 2009 Fausto ever again. I think last year is what he has become and his numbers this year verify that almost exactly. His K's are actually up this year and his K/BB ratio is improved. I agree with whoever said he will never be a number 1 starter, but I think he'll be a real good middle rotation starter for a very long time. I would not want to give that up. His only real decline in the peripheral numbers are the increase in home runs allowed. That is a concern I agree.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:29 am

justmebd wrote:Fausto seems like diminishing returns at this point. The only thing consistent about him is his inconsistency.

If Fausto throws a few bad pitches, he no longer seems able to work through it and just starts throwing batting practice.

I know trading him seems like a bad idea, but this is an organization who traded Cliff Lee because they thought he was a one-year wonder. (True story, I spoke to a person inside the tribe organization who revealed that to me last year when I started berating them over the move.)


Great, another guy with inside sources. Did your buddy the beer vendor tell you when Cord Phelps is coming up?
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby justmebd » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:41 am

You have a private message gotribe31. My conversation was with a front office person and it was off the record.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:38 pm

He has trade value, but what we could get for him is less than the value he has to us by keeping him.....Unless a team gets really desperate or retarded....Seattle anyone? :dingle:
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Bigfist » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:15 pm

justmebd wrote:Fausto seems like diminishing returns at this point. The only thing consistent about him is his inconsistency.

If Fausto throws a few bad pitches, he no longer seems able to work through it and just starts throwing batting practice.

I know trading him seems like a bad idea, but this is an organization who traded Cliff Lee because they thought he was a one-year wonder. (True story, I spoke to a person inside the tribe organization who revealed that to me last year when I started berating them over the move.)


I have no idea if you really talked to a front office person or not, but if, in fact, you received that info from a higher up, hopefully he is no longer employed with the Indians.

Lee was hardly a one year wonder..his 2005 and 2006 seasons were pretty good, and he had outstanding 2009 numbers at the time of his trade to Philly. Lee was not even close to a one year wonder.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:00 pm

Maybe we could pull in Justin Smoak and Pineda for Carmona? Eh eh? To bad Bavasi is gone. The days of fleecing Seattle are probably long gone :(
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:38 pm

Symbolic47 wrote:Maybe we could pull in Justin Smoak and Pineda for Carmona? Eh eh? To bad Bavasi is gone. The days of fleecing Seattle are probably long gone :(



we should already have a player of that Caliber to show for trading Cliff Lee :bag:
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:43 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
Symbolic47 wrote:Maybe we could pull in Justin Smoak and Pineda for Carmona? Eh eh? To bad Bavasi is gone. The days of fleecing Seattle are probably long gone :(



we should already have a player of that Caliber to show for trading Cliff Lee :bag:


Well, everyone wanted Kyle Drabek..... that wouldn't have looked so hot today! :dingle: :hide:
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:39 am

Ha it has got to be rather embarrassing to not be able to finish the 1st inning. I guess Farrel didnt want him to be the next sacrificial lamb like Mazzarro was!
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:50 am

justmebd wrote:I know trading him seems like a bad idea, but this is an organization who traded Cliff Lee because they thought he was a one-year wonder. (True story, I spoke to a person inside the tribe organization who revealed that to me last year when I started berating them over the move.)


Shenanigans
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby bookelly » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:32 am

motherscratcher wrote:
justmebd wrote:I know trading him seems like a bad idea, but this is an organization who traded Cliff Lee because they thought he was a one-year wonder. (True story, I spoke to a person inside the tribe organization who revealed that to me last year when I started berating them over the move.)


Shenanigans


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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby scrambler » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:18 am

justmebd wrote:Fausto seems like diminishing returns at this point. The only thing consistent about him is his inconsistency.

If Fausto throws a few bad pitches, he no longer seems able to work through it and just starts throwing batting practice.

I know trading him seems like a bad idea, but this is an organization who traded Cliff Lee because they thought he was a one-year wonder. (True story, I spoke to a person inside the tribe organization who revealed that to me last year when I started berating them over the move.)


I'm not sure he's all that wrong. On pure numbers the only time he approached 2008 was in 2010 when he was as good or even better. None of his other years have been close. He's had several very good years don't get me wrong. Look at his stats this year. Good but nothing great at all. He's already walked more than he did last year the entire season. His WHIP and BAA is higher than Carmona this year. Lee is a very good pitcher and until the World Series last year his postseason performance was ludicrous. That said, I would much rather have Carlos Carrasco than Cliff Lee moving forward.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:44 am

In 2008 Cliff Lee had an all time historically great year. One of the best ever. And I'm pretty sure you just argued that he's a "good" pitcher and "nothing great at all" because he only had one other season where he met or possibly exceeded his previous best year. Which, again, was one of the all time historically great years in baseball history.

Cliff Lee was good until 2008 (noting his "shit the bed" year in 2007) and then turned into a monster in 2008. His record in 2009 prior to the trade wasn't as impressive, but is pretty much meaningless. In 2009 he was pitching very well before the trade as evidenced by his K/BB rate and very low Home Run rate. He just wasn't winning as many games, something that isn't really his fault. I also watched the games and IMO he was pretty fucking good. As he has been every place he's been since.

I have no insider knowledge, so I can't speak to it directly, but I really really doubt that Shapiro an the FO watched Lee pitch in 2008 and 2009 and looked at his stats and his age and decided "One Year Wonder". Take a step back. It's absolutely ridiculous.

His trade was and is part of a rebuild plan that made sense and is starting to bear fruit.

As to your comment about rather having Carrasco...I can get with that. I'm not sure where I'd ultimately lie on that question, but it has more to do with their current ages than their ability.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby scrambler » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:24 am

I can see someone stating "one year wonder" as simply hyperbole. As you said Lee was very useful prior to his injury plagued 2007 and very good in fact in 2005. He was stupendously good in 2008 and 2010. He was not in 2009 and isn't this year. I think the one year wonder thing was simply meant to be that if it was meant like that simply stating he will never repeat what he did that year which is simply fact. He won't. It's like stating that Sandy Alomar Jr was a one year wonder in 1997. He was. He was always a good player who was very injury prone and never in his career came close before to that year before nor after. I honestly have no clue what Carrasco will be going forward. It's simply glass half full on my part.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:37 am

That's my point. Of course he's not going to keep repeating 2008 and 2010. Who the hell could? If by "one year wonder" he meant that Cliff was historically great in 2008 and the rest of the time merely very good, then I guess you have a point.

But that isn't really the context of the original "one year wonder" comment, is it? Teams don't trade pitchers after historically great seasons because they fear he will revert back to being really really good. That doesn't happen.

Players get traded after great seasons because their contracts are expensive, they are approaching free agency, and their current teams are small market and rebuilding. And that's why Cliff was traded. Not because he was a one year wonder.

Unless you think that the Tribe traded Victor and CC because of baseball economics, but traded Cliff because they didn't think he was all that good.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:45 am

BTW...in 2009 Lee had:

181K
43BB
0.7 HR/9

Not sure what the definition of stupendous is. Either way, there is no evidence there that Cliff's 2008 was a "one year wonder" year thus prompting Shap to unload him.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby scrambler » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:53 am

Whether they said it or not is meaningless. They traded Lee to get something back for exactly the same reason they traded CC and Victor. I think perhaps they traded him in 2009 rather than 2010 perhaps because they saw he wasn't quite pitching as well as 2008 to maximize what they got whereas in 2010 it would have simply been dumping prior to free agency. Whether anyone said "one year wonder" or not is as meaningful as if someone in the front office said..."we're trading Cliff Lee because the apocolypse is coming May 21st 2011."
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:16 pm

scrambler wrote:Whether they said it or not is meaningless. "


It's meaningful in that it is EXACTY what I was responding to. There was an assertion that someone in the front office claimed that the Indians traded Cliff Lee because he was a one year wonder. That is the whole reason I responded.

My response is that assertion is completely ridiculous. I don't believe for a second that Mark Shapiro traded Cliff Lee because he thought of him as a "one year wonder" as had been claimed upthread.

I guess I shouldn't have muddied the arguement by also claiming that Lee was in fact NOT a one year wonder, and no reasonable person (much less Shapiro) would consider him such,because that is really beside the point of what I was responding to.

Can someone help me out here because I feel like I'm unable to clearly articulate what I'm trying to say?
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby justmebd » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:31 pm

Bigfist wrote:
justmebd wrote:Fausto seems like diminishing returns at this point. The only thing consistent about him is his inconsistency.

If Fausto throws a few bad pitches, he no longer seems able to work through it and just starts throwing batting practice.

I know trading him seems like a bad idea, but this is an organization who traded Cliff Lee because they thought he was a one-year wonder. (True story, I spoke to a person inside the tribe organization who revealed that to me last year when I started berating them over the move.)


I have no idea if you really talked to a front office person or not, but if, in fact, you received that info from a higher up, hopefully he is no longer employed with the Indians.

Lee was hardly a one year wonder..his 2005 and 2006 seasons were pretty good, and he had outstanding 2009 numbers at the time of his trade to Philly. Lee was not even close to a one year wonder.


I expressed the exact same figures to this person, who was not responsible for the trade. This person, who told me this in an off-the-record conversation, became increasingly uncomfortable as I grilled him about this subject. In fact, Lee pitched the night of our conversation (and pitched well) and I made a remark about the mentality of the front office to one of the PR guys.

He didn't take my bait, but I didn't expect him to. It still felt good.

In the context of the whole conversation, my impression was Shapiro was the driving force behind the trade (NOTE the last phrase "my impression"). I had a low opinion of Shapiro prior to this conversation, and it certainly didn't improve.

I truly wish I could show the world the conversation I had last year, but I was at the stadium for a marketing thing and I didn't have a tape recorder. Every time I see Lee pitch, I just get pissed off now.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby justmebd » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:34 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
justmebd wrote:I know trading him seems like a bad idea, but this is an organization who traded Cliff Lee because they thought he was a one-year wonder. (True story, I spoke to a person inside the tribe organization who revealed that to me last year when I started berating them over the move.)


Shenanigans


I know, I know. I really wish I had a tape recording of the conversation. I spent the rest of that night just shaking my head because I knew no one would believe me.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby scrambler » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:58 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
scrambler wrote:Whether they said it or not is meaningless. "


It's meaningful in that it is EXACTY what I was responding to. There was an assertion that someone in the front office claimed that the Indians traded Cliff Lee because he was a one year wonder. That is the whole reason I responded.

My response is that assertion is completely ridiculous. I don't believe for a second that Mark Shapiro traded Cliff Lee because he thought of him as a "one year wonder" as had been claimed upthread.

I guess I shouldn't have muddied the arguement by also claiming that Lee was in fact NOT a one year wonder, and no reasonable person (much less Shapiro) would consider him such,because that is really beside the point of what I was responding to.

Can someone help me out here because I feel like I'm unable to clearly articulate what I'm trying to say?



ok. This discussion is sort of like trying to determine the best looking dandelion in your front yard. Sort of a meaningless enterprise like whether any front office personnel said what they said. I agree with you 100 percent. They certainly didn't trade Lee because he was a 1 year wonder. He was always a pretty good pitcher and still is and was a massive part of their first rebuild in a stunningly spectacular trade. They treated Lee like CC and Vic. Shapiro was trying to repeat the trade that brought Lee in the first place with those 3 deals.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:03 pm

I knew watching Cliff in his first start he was gonna be a good one. If I remember correctly he only went like 5 or 6, but threw a nasty curve ball(which he has seemed to go away from) and always seemed to have great command. I think alot of his issues in 07 and even to an extent 06 was mental. I think he was one of those guys who needed a reality check before fulfilling promise. Sucked to see him go. Was always a fan. Had a nice conversation with him 4 years ago in Seattle.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby gotribe31 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:04 pm

justmebd wrote:
Bigfist wrote:
justmebd wrote:Fausto seems like diminishing returns at this point. The only thing consistent about him is his inconsistency.

If Fausto throws a few bad pitches, he no longer seems able to work through it and just starts throwing batting practice.

I know trading him seems like a bad idea, but this is an organization who traded Cliff Lee because they thought he was a one-year wonder. (True story, I spoke to a person inside the tribe organization who revealed that to me last year when I started berating them over the move.)


I have no idea if you really talked to a front office person or not, but if, in fact, you received that info from a higher up, hopefully he is no longer employed with the Indians.

Lee was hardly a one year wonder..his 2005 and 2006 seasons were pretty good, and he had outstanding 2009 numbers at the time of his trade to Philly. Lee was not even close to a one year wonder.


I expressed the exact same figures to this person, who was not responsible for the trade. This person, who told me this in an off-the-record conversation, became increasingly uncomfortable as I grilled him about this subject. In fact, Lee pitched the night of our conversation (and pitched well) and I made a remark about the mentality of the front office to one of the PR guys.

He didn't take my bait, but I didn't expect him to. It still felt good.

In the context of the whole conversation, my impression was Shapiro was the driving force behind the trade (NOTE the last phrase "my impression"). I had a low opinion of Shapiro prior to this conversation, and it certainly didn't improve.

I truly wish I could show the world the conversation I had last year, but I was at the stadium for a marketing thing and I didn't have a tape recorder. Every time I see Lee pitch, I just get pissed off now.


Did the front office exec use the exact phrase "one year wonder" or are you paraphrasing for him?
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby Toxicadam » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:22 pm

I highly doubt that 'one year wonder' sentiment. It was clearly a money move based on expectations. Shapiro didn't expect to compete in 2009 and 2010, so there was no point in keeping Lee on the team. Save money and get prospects that are one year closer to helping you become competative again.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:01 pm

scrambler wrote:I can see someone stating "one year wonder" as simply hyperbole. As you said Lee was very useful prior to his injury plagued 2007 and very good in fact in 2005. He was stupendously good in 2008 and 2010. He was not in 2009 and isn't this year. I think the one year wonder thing was simply meant to be that if it was meant like that simply stating he will never repeat what he did that year which is simply fact. He won't. It's like stating that Sandy Alomar Jr was a one year wonder in 1997. He was. He was always a good player who was very injury prone and never in his career came close before to that year before nor after. I honestly have no clue what Carrasco will be going forward. It's simply glass half full on my part.



Cliff Lee's FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching measure) is actually less this year (2.77) than in his magical year of 2008 (2.83). The cause of his inflated ERA are an increased BABIP of .339 (career .297) and more of his fly balls are turning into home runs than in years past. He's really only had 1 bad start this year (his last) and another mediocre one on 5/16 where he gave up 6 walks, almost 1/3 of his entire walk total for the year.


He's almost the same pitcher he's been the last 3 years except that his increased K rate seems to be moving hand-in-hand with his increased walk rate. I attribute this to the fact that he went through a 7-game stretch (4/20-5/21, in the 4/20 game the Phillies scored all their runs after Cliff was taken out of the game) where the Phillies scored 4 runs TOTAL during the times he was in the game. Going through that would make him believe that he had to do everything himself and throw a shutout every time out for a chance to win.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:10 pm

Toxicadam wrote:I highly doubt that 'one year wonder' sentiment. It was clearly a money move based on expectations. Shapiro didn't expect to compete in 2009 and 2010, so there was no point in keeping Lee on the team. Save money and get prospects that are one year closer to helping you become competative again.


I think the 'one year wonder' thing is probably more 'selling high' than the FO believing he wasn't a quality pitcher. 22-3 with a 2ish ERA would be a pretty hard season for most pitchers to ever repeat.
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Re: Does Fausto have any trade value ...

Unread postby scrambler » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:49 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
scrambler wrote:Cliff Lee's FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching measure) is actually less this year (2.77) than in his magical year of 2008 (2.83). The cause of his inflated ERA are an increased BABIP of .339 (career .297) and more of his fly balls are turning into home runs than in years past. He's really only had 1 bad start this year (his last) and another mediocre one on 5/16 where he gave up 6 walks, almost 1/3 of his entire walk total for the year.


He's almost the same pitcher he's been the last 3 years except that his increased K rate seems to be moving hand-in-hand with his increased walk rate. I attribute this to the fact that he went through a 7-game stretch (4/20-5/21, in the 4/20 game the Phillies scored all their runs after Cliff was taken out of the game) where the Phillies scored 4 runs TOTAL during the times he was in the game. Going through that would make him believe that he had to do everything himself and throw a shutout every time out for a chance to win.


You'll have to educate me on that one. I don't know how FIP is measured.
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