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Cleveland Indians & MLB

5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed May 25, 2011 6:44 pm

Sadly I sometimes look forward to losses like this just to watch...nay...read the lunacy.

Good start so far though.

And Carrera is already probably through Mansfield.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Wed May 25, 2011 6:54 pm

Talbot gets a pass. Dude just came off the DL and was given a not so favorable matchup against Lester.

But if we want that WS title we will have to start beating good pitching right?
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Wed May 25, 2011 7:43 pm

Can somebody explain to me a valid reason to keep Kearns around anymore? :spanky:
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby Bigfist » Wed May 25, 2011 8:25 pm

Symbolic47 wrote:Can somebody explain to me a valid reason to keep Kearns around anymore? :spanky:


Well, he does have a history of at least being an adequate hitter, although he certainly has struggled this year. He is an ok defensive outfielder..not great, but ok. But he is right handed on a team that has far more left handed hitters than right, when everyone is healthy that is. So, I think there are some reasons to keep him around.

Still, I wonder about Jerad Head, who can play left, right, third and first, and has a fabulous arm. He is right handed as well and has been tearing up AAA. Wonder if he will find a job in Cleveland soon. Anyone?

Edit...did not realize Head is 28. I guess he is not much of a prospect.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby statmasta » Wed May 25, 2011 8:45 pm

Bigfist wrote:
Symbolic47 wrote:Can somebody explain to me a valid reason to keep Kearns around anymore? :spanky:


Well, he does have a history of at least being an adequate hitter, although he certainly has struggled this year. He is an ok defensive outfielder..not great, but ok. But he is right handed on a team that has far more left handed hitters than right, when everyone is healthy that is. So, I think there are some reasons to keep him around.

Still, I wonder about Jerad Head, who can play left, right, third and first, and has a fabulous arm. He is right handed as well and has been tearing up AAA. Wonder if he will find a job in Cleveland soon. Anyone?

Edit...did not realize Head is 28. I guess he is not much of a prospect.

This would have been the perfect opportunity for Jared Goedert. It sucks that he got hurt in spring training.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby scrambler » Wed May 25, 2011 8:57 pm

It's amazing one bad loss and everyone wants to get people out of the lineup with the team with the best record in MLB. They played fine this series. Talbot pitching his first game in a month and a half against one of the best in baseball was a rough matchup and almost any sane person would think before it started it was likely a loss. We have beaten lots of good pitchers this year. Masterson pitched great the first game and despite the 4 runs allowed Fausto also pitched great. He was dominating at times with nasty stuff and had 5 perfect innings. I have zero doubt Choo will be fine. I guess he had some adventures in right today, but his average has been on a slow incline upward since his west coast disaster after his DUI. I'm not sure why so many want wholesale changes already. To get to May 27th with nothing longer than a two game losing streak all season is beyond remarkable. Hafner concerns me. I think they need him healthy and producing like he has been all season, and I'm doubtful now he will ever be healthy again this year. The Rays face our two best starters the next series too.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Wed May 25, 2011 10:22 pm

The reason some of us talk about the lineup is it CAN be improved. Simply calling up Phelps and letting O-Cab play super utility would make this team more effective. Chiz isnt ready so Hannahan is fine for now as he has a good glove. Really O-cab is no longer starter material. He started out like gangbusters but has tailed off considerably at the plate. For a veteran player he sure is awful at making a pitcher work.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed May 25, 2011 10:35 pm

Symbolic47 wrote:The reason some of us talk about the lineup is it CAN be improved.


The lineup is weak ya say? No shit. It has been for about 25 of the 30 wins this season. Maybe 30/30 if you consider Choo and Santana have blown.

I'm still waiting to hear the same cries, pleas and yelps after 4 or 5 straight wins.

Glad the Tribe has brought more people here. I really am. It's great and it's healthy. Just praying this batch has some sense and also considers that maybe that these issues have been kicked a round a time or two and there ain't no one hurt by researching that. :salute:
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed May 25, 2011 10:42 pm

There's no guarantee that the help down below does better than the guys here. How about Brantley's April last season as proof?

They're not some ruined team just because they lost back-to-back games. If they lose 8 of 10, I'll be concerned. Teams go through bad stretches. It happens.

Are there flaws on this team? Absolutely. Do they deserve to be magnified because they got shut down by a guy who is 41-18 over the last three seasons and a guy with a 1.69 ERA who has thrown 14 scoreless innings against the Yankees this season? No.

Not going to win every series.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Thu May 26, 2011 1:30 am

So by stating that I think the lineup can be improved, Im also saying that the lineup is weak? I dont think so.

- I joined this site two years ago.....hardly coming out of the woodwork from the success. Ive been lurking for awhile, and finally decided to join the conversation as most people here seem pretty cool......
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu May 26, 2011 7:55 am

Symbolic47 wrote:So by stating that I think the lineup can be improved, Im also saying that the lineup is weak? I dont think so.

- I joined this site two years ago.....hardly coming out of the woodwork from the success. Ive been lurking for awhile, and finally decided to join the conversation as most people here seem pretty cool......


Every lineup could be improved. Every single one in the Major Leagues. And the lineup is weak with Sizemore and Hafner. And with major components LaPorta, OCab, Hannahan, and Santana all struggling mightily.

All I'm saying is that the team is still 30-17 and they're 30-17 with the guys currently in that dugout. There's a chemistry on this team that you don't upset just because OCab and Hannahan are mired in slumps.

Like I said, if you lose 8 of 10, then you start to panic a little bit and start making moves. Plus, you have to look toward the future. We're about two weeks or so away from avoiding Super Two status if we called anybody up. That extra year of control is huge. Especially if Phelps/Kipnis wind up being the real deal.

Managing a baseball team is as much about being a psychologist as it is about filling out lineup cards and coaching during BP. I'm not sure people understand that. They just see a guy hitting .180 over his last 15 games and want him replaced. It can't work that way, especially with a veteran, and team leader, like OCab.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu May 26, 2011 8:58 am

I would agree that a major overhaul isn't needed right now. The Tribe has played really good baseball while fighting through more than their share of injuries this season, and less than stellar starts to the season by two guys they have batting 3rd and 4th in the lineup.

I think it's those things combined that have the pundits trying to figure out how a team like Cleveland has such a fantastic record.

The last two games are done, they need to focus on the Rays and take 2 of 3 against some really great pitching.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu May 26, 2011 9:20 am

Taking two of out three from the Rays may be tough, as they are throwing their top three starters, two of whom will likely make the All Star team. But we have two guys going as well that are at this point All Star worthy as well. Should be some low scoring games.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby shamwow imitator » Thu May 26, 2011 10:01 am

Boston now goes to Detroit to play 4 with the kitty-cats. I feel a need to take another shower, but I'm hoping the Sux sweep that series :hide:
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu May 26, 2011 10:36 am

Symbolic47 wrote:So by stating that I think the lineup can be improved, Im also saying that the lineup is weak? I dont think so.

- I joined this site two years ago.....hardly coming out of the woodwork from the success. Ive been lurking for awhile, and finally decided to join the conversation as most people here seem pretty cool......


others have already summed it up.

And like I said, the only time it's mentioned is when they drop a couple games to guys like Beckett and Lester or Haren and Price or Shields and.....

Never concerned with what's been a weak lineup all season in the 30 wins. Then it's just gritty and gutty and doing the little things.

The lineup doesn't get better and worse from night to night. The opposing pitching might though.

People are too reactive. That's the point.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby scrambler » Thu May 26, 2011 11:20 am

there's no need to rush. Look at 2007, Josh Barfield got over 400 at bats I think, it was very late when they went to Cabrera and he added a nice jolt. They didn't have to rush it because they were playing well all year with Barfield too. Why rush Phelps or Chisenhall right now when at this point they still have the best record in baseball? Of course that can change as we are in this brutal schedule stretch, but you know it's been fine. As peeker said, this lineup is always fine against the bad pitchers we see, the absence of Sizemore and Hafner become a lot more noticeable against the best in the game. They made Beckett work actually, he is very good, but they weren't far from doing quite a bit of damage that game.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby Jumbo » Thu May 26, 2011 11:22 am

peeker643 wrote:
Symbolic47 wrote:So by stating that I think the lineup can be improved, Im also saying that the lineup is weak? I dont think so.

- I joined this site two years ago.....hardly coming out of the woodwork from the success. Ive been lurking for awhile, and finally decided to join the conversation as most people here seem pretty cool......


others have already summed it up.

And like I said, the only time it's mentioned is when they drop a couple games to guys like Beckett and Lester or Haren and Price or Shields and.....

Never concerned with what's been a weak lineup all season in the 30 wins. Then it's just gritty and gutty and doing the little things.

The lineup doesn't get better and worse from night to night. The opposing pitching might though.

People are too reactive. That's the point.


The lineup can be sufficiently improved just by Sizemore and Hafner returning successfully (crosses fingers). It's only if they don't that some kind of long-term solution will be needed.

Another issue that's easy to forget is the continued decline in offense has distorted perceptions. Upthread it was mentioned that only two guys in the lineup had an average of .280 or better. The AL this year is hitting .251. The back-to-earth Jack Hannahan (today's slash line: .237/.321/.367) has an OPS+ of 100...exactly league average. The line-up could be better, but just filling in the injury holes will go a long way.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu May 26, 2011 11:59 am

I agree Jumbo.

I think people have been a bit slow to recognize and accept the significant reduction in offense overall since the steroid shit was cleared up. This isn't '94 through 2005. The game has changed again due to the efforts to clean it up.

Now a guy like Hannahan with 'average' offensive numbers is actually an asset because of that defense.

That doesn't excuse the ops+ of 82 for Cabrera. His defense is also that of a 36 yr old and I think that while his leadership is valuable it's still probably less than enough to make him average. Not to mention a real leader would take his replacement under his wing and contribute when he could on and off the field. That may still happen after the service year issue is resolved.

But still, back to an era where pitching dominates and defense is again valuable. The way this team is built and with the pitching they're getting they should be happy they are where they are and that the game has changed.

Jumbo wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Symbolic47 wrote:So by stating that I think the lineup can be improved, Im also saying that the lineup is weak? I dont think so.

- I joined this site two years ago.....hardly coming out of the woodwork from the success. Ive been lurking for awhile, and finally decided to join the conversation as most people here seem pretty cool......


others have already summed it up.

And like I said, the only time it's mentioned is when they drop a couple games to guys like Beckett and Lester or Haren and Price or Shields and.....

Never concerned with what's been a weak lineup all season in the 30 wins. Then it's just gritty and gutty and doing the little things.

The lineup doesn't get better and worse from night to night. The opposing pitching might though.

People are too reactive. That's the point.


The lineup can be sufficiently improved just by Sizemore and Hafner returning successfully (crosses fingers). It's only if they don't that some kind of long-term solution will be needed.

Another issue that's easy to forget is the continued decline in offense has distorted perceptions. Upthread it was mentioned that only two guys in the lineup had an average of .280 or better. The AL this year is hitting .251. The back-to-earth Jack Hannahan (today's slash line: .237/.321/.367) has an OPS+ of 100...exactly league average. The line-up could be better, but just filling in the injury holes will go a long way.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Thu May 26, 2011 12:07 pm

peeker643 wrote:And like I said, the only time it's mentioned is when they drop a couple games to guys like Beckett and Lester or Haren and Price or Shields and.....


They're going to have to beat guys like that eventually but Antonetti still has 2 months to assess our needs.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu May 26, 2011 12:58 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:
peeker643 wrote:And like I said, the only time it's mentioned is when they drop a couple games to guys like Beckett and Lester or Haren and Price or Shields and.....


They're going to have to beat guys like that eventually but Antonetti still has 2 months to assess our needs.


Meh..they've beaten the Sox when Lester started and they've beaten Weaver, etc. They're fine if they pitch themselves. Not worried about who they look at it. Aces are aces and if you can beat one one of three times you're doing fine.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu May 26, 2011 1:35 pm

shamwow imitator wrote:Boston now goes to Detroit to play 4 with the kitty-cats. I feel a need to take another shower, but I'm hoping the Sux sweep that series :hide:


- D. Ortiz singled to left
- C. Crawford singled to shallow right center, D. Ortiz to second
- D. Sutton doubled to deep right center, D. Ortiz scored, C. Crawford to third

At least it's not just us. Drew Sutton is on fire.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby noles1 » Thu May 26, 2011 2:23 pm

Hate the Sux but would love for them to get 3 of 4 against the Kitties...
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu May 26, 2011 2:25 pm

skatingtripods wrote:At least it's not just us. Drew Sutton is on fire.


If Shapiro was a real baseball man he would have never let him get away. And I make this statement regardless of the fact that I have absolutely no recollection of him ever being here to begin with.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu May 26, 2011 2:30 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:At least it's not just us. Drew Sutton is on fire.


If Shapiro was a real baseball man he would have never let him get away. And I make this statement regardless of the fact that I have absolutely no recollection of him ever being here to begin with.



Fucking Ivy League-tongued asshole.

Or was it 'ivy-tongued'? I forget.

Mother, I'm sure you know what Shapiro's tongue is like. Can you remind us?
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu May 26, 2011 2:52 pm

peeker643 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:At least it's not just us. Drew Sutton is on fire.


If Shapiro was a real baseball man he would have never let him get away. And I make this statement regardless of the fact that I have absolutely no recollection of him ever being here to begin with.



Fucking Ivy League-tongued asshole.

Or was it 'ivy-tongued'? I forget.

Mother, I'm sure you know what Shapiro's tongue is like. Can you remind us?


Look, what Shap does in his bedroom is his own business and I'm not sure why you would bring up something like a "tongued asshole" on a family site like this...

Wait...Oh I gotcha. Sorry I read that wrong at first.

Yeah. You had it right the first time. He's an ivy-league tongued...um...gentleman.

I'm still waiting on pictures.
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Thu May 26, 2011 3:13 pm

I'll just leave this here. People can copy and paste it when they feel the need to

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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby googleeph2 » Thu May 26, 2011 5:26 pm

peeker643 wrote:Glad the Tribe has brought more people here.


It wasn't the girl-getting-wet-in-her-bathing-suit banner ad?
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Re: 5/25: Red Sox @ Indians

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Thu May 26, 2011 5:45 pm

I totally understand what your saying Peeker. No problem here. O-cab is obviously a huge part of this teams success so far. There is just no way around it. I guess its more me wanting Cord to get a shot(huge fan of his), and I see him as a upgrade right now over O-cab. But I am in no way advocating getting rid of Orlando. As I said above putting him in the super utility role would really optimize this teams ability at the moment. this is all my opinion of course.

As far as Kipnis and Chiz go, Ive haven't said we should call them up. I dont think we should(yet). Chiz isnt ready and Hannahan is doing a decent job all around. Kipnis I think personally has more upside than Phelps, so keeping him down all year would do him nothing but good.

But one thing we can all agree on is the return of Grady tomorrow, and (hopefully) the inevitable turn around of Choo and Santana should make us forget about O-cabs bat. Lets just get him outta that 6 hole haha.
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