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New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby danwismar » Sun May 15, 2011 6:55 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/16/sport ... .html?_r=1

"Indians are First in Standings, but Last in Attendance"
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby 1Perry » Sun May 15, 2011 7:21 pm

“The consensus outside the organization was maybe they were a year or two away,” reliever Chad Durbin said. “But Chris was adamant: ‘Absolutely not. You can make your decision here, there or wherever, but this team’s going to be better than everybody thinks.’ ”

Nice to see him (Antonelli) stating the positive. Pushing what could be done.

“We need to pull back and do a better job of strategically assessing what we were and not look at ourselves through the lens of the mid-’90s,” Shapiro said. “It’s just not the same operating circumstances and not the same city. We need to celebrate it, but celebrate it as our heritage and not as something attainable now.”

As opposed to old dick head with his what can't be done speeches. Friday nights game showed that the city will show up.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby Pressrunnr » Sun May 15, 2011 9:31 pm

Seriously, does Shapiro actually hear himself? The '90s can't be done again? I don't believe they were near the top in payroll until the last few years of that run -- collecting that talent was relatively inexpensive! Belle, Lofton, Baerga, Manny didn't just fall off the Christmas tree with million dollar contracts -- they all made the minimum or team-friendly deals for a lot of the run. The free agent deals to guys like Martinez and Murray were crucial, but they weren't the core and valuable as they were, their contracts didn't exactly bust the market.

Shaprio could say that nowadays they would re-think some of the decisions made during the end of the run that hiked up payroll, hung on to some of the "next wave" guys like Sexson, Giles, etc. rather than go for costly "last pieces" like Wickman and Rincon (which wouldn't have been bad ideas anyway, looking at it with 20/20 hindsight). And better yet, stick to the original "plan" and draft/deal for better prospects than we saw circa 2000-2006. But geez, the actual collecting of talent that we all associate with '90s Indians success shouldn't be something that "can't be repeated."

I hate arguing with people who say "Oh they stink because Dolan just won't spend money" and Shaprio goes and makes their argument for them. Grrr.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby mikeperry » Sun May 15, 2011 11:57 pm

Just an FYI...today (Sunday) Shapiro was in Eric Wedge's office in the road clubhouse for quite a long time...in fact Wedge was late for his pregame meeting with the media because of it. I would have loved to have been able to hear that conversation.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Mon May 16, 2011 12:22 am

Average attendance is only going to increase from here on out. If only we could get some consistent baseball weather.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Mon May 16, 2011 2:25 am

“We need to pull back and do a better job of strategically assessing what we were and not look at ourselves through the lens of the mid-’90s,” Shapiro said. “It’s just not the same operating circumstances and not the same city. We need to celebrate it, but celebrate it as our heritage and not as something attainable now.”



I despise that attitude and am also glad that it appears to be changing a bit with Antonetti. The 2003-2010 Minnesota Twins basically accomplished the exact same thing as the 90's Indians aside from a few flameouts once they reached the playoffs (and I don't think any Tribe fan would look a playoff horse in the mouth these days). 5 playoff appearances in eight years for the Twins plus a Game 163 that they lost to the White Sox in 2008. They may have a better midwest economy at their disposal than we do but it's not a huge difference, especially when you consider how crappy their stadium was until last year. Even if the 90's created a difficult standard for the Indians, there's nothing wrong with using a more economical approach and still striving for it.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby gotribe31 » Mon May 16, 2011 9:31 am

Kingpin74 wrote:
“We need to pull back and do a better job of strategically assessing what we were and not look at ourselves through the lens of the mid-’90s,” Shapiro said. “It’s just not the same operating circumstances and not the same city. We need to celebrate it, but celebrate it as our heritage and not as something attainable now.”



I despise that attitude and am also glad that it appears to be changing a bit with Antonetti. The 2003-2010 Minnesota Twins basically accomplished the exact same thing as the 90's Indians aside from a few flameouts once they reached the playoffs (and I don't think any Tribe fan would look a playoff horse in the mouth these days). 5 playoff appearances in eight years for the Twins plus a Game 163 that they lost to the White Sox in 2008. They may have a better midwest economy at their disposal than we do but it's not a huge difference, especially when you consider how crappy their stadium was until last year. Even if the 90's created a difficult standard for the Indians, there's nothing wrong with using a more economical approach and still striving for it.


So you disagree with his premise? You really think that this is a similar situation to the 1990's with no Browns, a booming economy and a crappy Cavs team (ok, I'll give you that one)? The 90's Indians were trendsetters and ahead of the curve when it came to they way they handled their young talent; buying out the arby years for guaranteed $ and getting a couple more years tacked on at what would become below market value. Players just aren't doing that anymore the way they used to.

Shapiro and Antonetti are doing exactly what they should be doing. They are taking this sitaution for what it is, and building the roster the most effective way they can in 2011. They're fighting this war, not the last war. I don't think he is saying that sustained success isn't attainable now. He's saying that roster construction as it existed in the 90's isn't attainable now. At least, that's how I read it.

As for the overplayed attendance angle...talk to me in June or July. If they're still last in attendance, I'll be concerned.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Mon May 16, 2011 11:17 am

So you disagree with his premise? You really think that this is a similar situation to the 1990's with no Browns, a booming economy and a crappy Cavs team (ok, I'll give you that one)? The 90's Indians were trendsetters and ahead of the curve when it came to they way they handled their young talent; buying out the arby years for guaranteed $ and getting a couple more years tacked on at what would become below market value. Players just aren't doing that anymore the way they used to.

Shapiro and Antonetti are doing exactly what they should be doing. They are taking this sitaution for what it is, and building the roster the most effective way they can in 2011. They're fighting this war, not the last war. I don't think he is saying that sustained success isn't attainable now. He's saying that roster construction as it existed in the 90's isn't attainable now. At least, that's how I read it.

As for the overplayed attendance angle...talk to me in June or July. If they're still last in attendance, I'll be concerned.


If that's how Shapiro meant it, then I agree. The 90's method of building the roster isn't practical today. The Cleveland economy has changed, free agency years are way harder to buy out for young guys, and the price of short term veteran free agents has skyrocketed. I figured he meant it with regards to frequency of playoff appearances.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon May 16, 2011 3:08 pm

gotribe31 wrote:
Kingpin74 wrote:
“We need to pull back and do a better job of strategically assessing what we were and not look at ourselves through the lens of the mid-’90s,” Shapiro said. “It’s just not the same operating circumstances and not the same city. We need to celebrate it, but celebrate it as our heritage and not as something attainable now.”



I despise that attitude and am also glad that it appears to be changing a bit with Antonetti. The 2003-2010 Minnesota Twins basically accomplished the exact same thing as the 90's Indians aside from a few flameouts once they reached the playoffs (and I don't think any Tribe fan would look a playoff horse in the mouth these days). 5 playoff appearances in eight years for the Twins plus a Game 163 that they lost to the White Sox in 2008. They may have a better midwest economy at their disposal than we do but it's not a huge difference, especially when you consider how crappy their stadium was until last year. Even if the 90's created a difficult standard for the Indians, there's nothing wrong with using a more economical approach and still striving for it.


So you disagree with his premise? You really think that this is a similar situation to the 1990's with no Browns, a booming economy and a crappy Cavs team (ok, I'll give you that one)? The 90's Indians were trendsetters and ahead of the curve when it came to they way they handled their young talent; buying out the arby years for guaranteed $ and getting a couple more years tacked on at what would become below market value. Players just aren't doing that anymore the way they used to.

Shapiro and Antonetti are doing exactly what they should be doing. They are taking this sitaution for what it is, and building the roster the most effective way they can in 2011. They're fighting this war, not the last war. I don't think he is saying that sustained success isn't attainable now. He's saying that roster construction as it existed in the 90's isn't attainable now. At least, that's how I read it.

As for the overplayed attendance angle...talk to me in June or July. If they're still last in attendance, I'll be concerned.


This, man. Shapiro wasn't talking about not being able to compete the way they did in the 90's. What he was saying is that even if the Indinas reproduce that success on the field, this city can no longer support this team to the tune of 455 straight sellouts. That won't happen again. And he's right. And so the Indians probably will never be able to construct a roster that is top 5 in payroll the way they did over a decade ago. ANtonetti is rebuilding this team the best way possible for this market.

Al's right. People will come out. especially if the team keeps winning and the weather gets nice. But it will never be like the 90's dodown there.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 16, 2011 4:33 pm

Even if you are right you still suck mother.

Suck goat balls to be frank.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby googleeph2 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:33 pm

gotribe31 wrote:As for the overplayed attendance angle...talk to me in June or July. If they're still last in attendance, I'll be concerned.


Exactly. Just like it wasn't a big deal when they drew a lot of fans in the early post-Jacobs era. There's a lag time in attendance response, to both success and failure.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon May 16, 2011 8:39 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Even if you are right you still suck mother.

Suck goat balls to be frank.


Goat balls? People don't really have a taste for testicles no more. The trick is you gotta cut 'em off way up high.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Mon May 16, 2011 9:08 pm

I would not compare the 2000s Twins with the 1990s Cleveland Indians. Not one of those Twins teams was a legitimate World Series contender. Not one of them.

The Indians had an All-Star at every position. They are one of the great groupings to have never won a title. The Twins had Nick Punto in a starring role and never stared down/beat the Yankees teams that the Indians did.

The Twins were good. The Indians from 1995 to 1999 were great.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon May 16, 2011 10:27 pm

It doesn't matter what his exact arguement is. It's still "can't, can't, can't". Other are told to get over the 90's. Well Shapiro needs to do the same.

There was no need for him to even bring it up.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby Pressrunnr » Mon May 16, 2011 11:38 pm

[quote]This, man. Shapiro wasn't talking about not being able to compete the way they did in the 90's. What he was saying is that even if the Indinas reproduce that success on the field, this city can no longer support this team to the tune of 455 straight sellouts. That won't happen again. And he's right. And so the Indians probably will never be able to construct a roster that is top 5 in payroll the way they did over a decade ago. ANtonetti is rebuilding this team the best way possible for this market.

Al's right. People will come out. especially if the team keeps winning and the weather gets nice. But it will never be like the 90's dodown there.[quoteuote]

I don't disagree with that -- and I'm sure that is exactly what Shapiro meant. But like I said, can he not hear himself? Can he not hear that every time he opens his mouth, he sounds like he's saying "we can't compete"?
People get hot and bothered about top 5 payroll, but again, we weren't top 5 until the latter years of that run, I believe. Or at the very least, the talent got there first, then the attendance, then the revenue THEN the top 5 payroll. And again, 20/20 hindsight of course (because at the time I was right there saying "Yeah, get Juan Gonzalez! Yeah, get Finley! Yeah, trade Giles for that LAST PIECE! etc. etc.), that run might have even been longer if they had mixed in younger players, had better drafts and actually had LOWER payrolls.

If he was solely talking about the sellout streak, fine, but he needs to make that clear. Because really, who cares about the sellout streak? Yeah, that was the product of the "perfect storm" no Browns etc. But if they had thought long-term earlier and thus stayed competitive after 2001, attendance still would've been consistently high. Sure, they wouldn't have had a top 5 payroll, but they'd have had enough revenue to be consistently in the top 12 or so. The point isn't to be a Monday Morning quarterback about how the '90s era ended; after all, they rebuilt -- twice -- successfully after that. It's just to illustrate that even then and certainly now, big payrolls and sellout streaks aren't the be-all and end-all; having a consistent contender is. If that's what Shapiro's saying -- and I think it is -- that's a great point, but he needs to make it clear.

At a certain point, people like me who basically "get" how and why they operate the way they do shouldn't have to make his point FOR him against the "cheap Indians won't win because they don't spend" crowd.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue May 17, 2011 10:18 pm

1Perry wrote:It doesn't matter what his exact arguement is. It's still "can't, can't, can't". Other are told to get over the 90's. Well Shapiro needs to do the same.

There was no need for him to even bring it up.


There's no need for you to pollute these boards with your never-ending stream of nonsense, and yet here you are.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby 1Perry » Wed May 18, 2011 2:52 pm

And yet, most who replied to this thread agreed with me. It's not my fault you get all insecure when someone agree's with you.

It might help your low self esteem if nobody ever posted anything to make you reconsider your positions but it's really not our problem.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed May 18, 2011 5:38 pm

1Perry wrote:And yet, most who replied to this thread agreed with me. It's not my fault you get all insecure when someone agree's with you.

It might help your low self esteem if nobody ever posted anything to make you reconsider your positions but it's really not our problem.


And it might help your delusions of granduer if you actually went back and read the thread before you presume that anyone agrees with you.

I don't get insecure when people disagree with me. I've had great back and forth discussions with Pup, Tripods and other intelligent posters on these boards when we disagree with each other. You on the other hand, have no real take or opinion on anything except to say that Shapiro sucks no matter what. You're just a complete waste of space on the internet, and considering how much free space there is on the internet, that's tough to accomplish. You have yet to post anything original or useful on these boards, and you should probably just quit now because it doesn't seem like you have a rational post in you at this point. But hey, thanks for coming out.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby 1Perry » Wed May 18, 2011 5:41 pm

gotribe31 wrote:
1Perry wrote:I don't get insecure when people disagree with me. I've had great back and forth discussions with Pup, Tripods and.......


Is this similiar to someone argueing they aren't a racist because they knew two black guys back in college?
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed May 18, 2011 5:54 pm

1Perry wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:
1Perry wrote:I don't get insecure when people disagree with me. I've had great back and forth discussions with Pup, Tripods and.......


Is this similiar to someone argueing they aren't a racist because they knew two black guys back in college?


Thanks for continuing to prove my point that you add nothing to these boards.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby 1Perry » Wed May 18, 2011 8:18 pm

I'm sure you have far more important things to worry about.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby scrambler » Thu May 19, 2011 1:44 pm

I think Shapiro has been very good overall. Noone is perfect nor is Shapiro, but it appears since the Browns have been back he has conducted not one but perhaps two very successful rebuilds of the franchise. The animosity people have toward this guy shocks me. I'm not sure I'll see a Cleveland championship before I die, but this guy is very good and I hope he stays around a very long time. The Bartolo Colon trade was of course stil his signature moment and is still paying dividends. All three of the minor leaguers acquired are still all star caliber players when healthy. It's a shame the 2005 team gagged it away and the 2007 team was tantalizingly close to perhaps winning it all even. I don't think the rockies would have beaten them if they had gotten there. Great dividends have already come from the dump of Sabathia, Lee and Martinez who have turned into Brantley, LaPorta, Carrasco, and Masterson amongst those still in the minors from those deals. His deals to get A Cabrera, Choo, Santana, Hafner, Talbot, C Perez were just flat out theft. Of course Brandon Phillips overrides all I guess in some people's version of life which is fine I guess. Or the silly angst over Franklin Gutierrez or some other stud. I could list the bad trades, but I'm a Shapiro whore so I only remember the good ones!! Maybe it's Eric Wedge, but I thought his hiring was fine and he won when the circumstances were right to win, and I thought he was fired at the right time too. The one area where the team was failing was in the scouting and draft but that even has appeared to have been improved significantly with Alex White now throwing in the bigs one year later. So it appears he recognized the weakness and took steps to address it. Yes, perhaps too late for most but it was addressed. I don't get it.

ooh...now he says we can't sell out 500 straight games any more. He is far and away the best foront office guy in Cleveland sports in my lifetime with what he has to deal with. He ain't got what Hart had. And he's not the GM any more either.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu May 19, 2011 2:28 pm

^^^I dig.

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BTW - no biggie but giant blocks of text make my brain hurt.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Thu May 19, 2011 2:47 pm

Kinda sucks that good seats for weekend games are selling out now. Gunna have to start getting tickets more than just a couple days prior.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby danwismar » Thu May 19, 2011 3:16 pm

Shapiro tweeted earlier that Saturday's game is close to a sellout. He was pushing for Friday ticket sales. Not sure what it looks like for Sunday, but I know I'll be there.
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Re: New York Times article on Tribe

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu May 19, 2011 5:20 pm

danwismar wrote:Shapiro tweeted earlier that Saturday's game is close to a sellout. He was pushing for Friday ticket sales. Not sure what it looks like for Sunday, but I know I'll be there.


Just got tickets to all 3. I think that'll make 13 of 22 home games that I've been to.

Someone handed us a voucher for two free mezzanine today when we went in to the Team Shop after we got Saturday's tickets. Got Row B. I can't stand sitting up there, but free tickets are free tickets.
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