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Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

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Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 12:41 am

:hide:

Santana has a higher OBP and higher SLG than Posey, and thus he has a better OPS. So despite being supposedly awful this year, he's still better than Posey. Hmm...

Santana: .217/.333/.396/.730
B Posey: .245/.328/.373/.701
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun May 08, 2011 11:02 am

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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Sun May 08, 2011 11:15 am

Buster Posey has a ring. Santana does not.

Posey is better than Santana for the same reason Trent Dilfer was better than Dan Marino.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby onlyindreams » Sun May 08, 2011 11:18 am

Through this slump, Santana has still been working pitchers and drawing walks, which indicates he sees the ball well. It was only a matter of time before he started hitting.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun May 08, 2011 11:42 am

Good thing all you homers are looking for is OPS and such.....

Excellent analysis if DH is what you're measuring.

Yes- Marino and Dilfer is applicable. ::doh:: :lmfao:

As a catcher Santana is an excellent hitting prospect. It's not that difficult to see that through the Wahoo-colored glasses. But it'll get argued anyway because this isn't www.the Impartial and Objective Fan.com

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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby 1Perry » Sun May 08, 2011 11:43 am

I hope by the end of the season that for this season at the very least it is clear cut.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby gotribe31 » Sun May 08, 2011 11:47 am

They are both really good hitters who are more talented then they have shown so far this season. Both are good defenders, but Posey is better at this stage in their respective careers. Not sure what is the point of putting up a month+ worth of triple slash line and saying one is better than the other right now.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun May 08, 2011 12:00 pm

gotribe31 wrote:They are both really good hitters who are more talented then they have shown so far this season. Both are good defenders, but Posey is better at this stage in their respective careers. Not sure what is the point of putting up a month+ worth of triple slash line and saying one is better than the other right now.



Yep. I'll go with that.

Comparable hitters with different strengths and styles with, IMO, Posey being much better defensively even though both came late to the catching gig.

Not to mention Posey is a year younger.

I don't think this would be questioned in any other city in the country really and that's not to slight Santana who is an exciting hitter and a viable catcher.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby gotribe31 » Sun May 08, 2011 12:03 pm

peeker643 wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:They are both really good hitters who are more talented then they have shown so far this season. Both are good defenders, but Posey is better at this stage in their respective careers. Not sure what is the point of putting up a month+ worth of triple slash line and saying one is better than the other right now.



Yep. I'll go with that.

Comparable hitters with different strengths and styles with, IMO, Posey being much better defensively even though both came late to the catching gig.

Not to mention Posey is a year younger.

I don't think this would be questioned in any other city in the country really and that's not to slight Santana who is an exciting hitter and a viable catcher.


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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Sun May 08, 2011 12:08 pm

I don't think this would be questioned in any other city in the country really and that's not to slight Santana who is an exciting hitter and a viable catcher.



This is what they (they being the posters who won't let this die) don't seem to understand. He can still be good/great and not be as good as Posey. They're both good right now and have limitless ceilings but Posey just has the longer track record, even if it is only an extra half year, and has led his team to a World Series. That's the only real difference other than the subtle ones i.e. one's a slightly better hitter, the other a slightly better defender etc.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun May 08, 2011 1:47 pm

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun May 08, 2011 2:59 pm

peeker643 wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:They are both really good hitters who are more talented then they have shown so far this season. Both are good defenders, but Posey is better at this stage in their respective careers. Not sure what is the point of putting up a month+ worth of triple slash line and saying one is better than the other right now.



Yep. I'll go with that.

Comparable hitters with different strengths and styles with, IMO, Posey being much better defensively even though both came late to the catching gig.

Not to mention Posey is a year younger.

I don't think this would be questioned in any other city in the country really and that's not to slight Santana who is an exciting hitter and a viable catcher.


I don't understand why you hate Santana so much.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 3:48 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
I don't think this would be questioned in any other city in the country really and that's not to slight Santana who is an exciting hitter and a viable catcher.



This is what they (they being the posters who won't let this die) don't seem to understand. He can still be good/great and not be as good as Posey. They're both good right now and have limitless ceilings but Posey just has the longer track record, even if it is only an extra half year, and has led his team to a World Series. That's the only real difference other than the subtle ones i.e. one's a slightly better hitter, the other a slightly better defender etc.

Posey didn't lead anything and it wasn't his team. It was Tim Lincecum's team.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun May 08, 2011 3:57 pm

statmasta wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
I don't think this would be questioned in any other city in the country really and that's not to slight Santana who is an exciting hitter and a viable catcher.



This is what they (they being the posters who won't let this die) don't seem to understand. He can still be good/great and not be as good as Posey. They're both good right now and have limitless ceilings but Posey just has the longer track record, even if it is only an extra half year, and has led his team to a World Series. That's the only real difference other than the subtle ones i.e. one's a slightly better hitter, the other a slightly better defender etc.

Posey didn't lead anything and it wasn't his team. It was Tim Lincecum's team.


What about the 4 days that Lincecum sat on the bench thinking about which bong was his favorite? Who's team was it those days?
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 4:00 pm

gotribe31 wrote:They are both really good hitters who are more talented then they have shown so far this season. Both are good defenders, but Posey is better at this stage in their respective careers. Not sure what is the point of putting up a month+ worth of triple slash line and saying one is better than the other right now.

How is Posey better?

Posey does two things better than Santana, imo: Goes to the opposite field (usually weak ground balls or flares) and he has a quicker release when throwing out base stealers.

Santana's just as good or better in every other aspect of the game. Better at putting the barrell of the bat on the ball, better plate discipline and vision, more power, strikes out at a similarly low rate, walks more, similarly athletic, just as strong of an arm.

I'll take Santana over Posey, no doubt about it. The whole "Posey's a winner and a leader" stuff is all a myth. If you switch them and put Carlos Santana on the Giants, guess what? The Giants still win the World Series. It doesn't make Posey better, it just means he was on a better team. Santana's the better player.
Last edited by statmasta on Sun May 08, 2011 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 4:05 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
I don't think this would be questioned in any other city in the country really and that's not to slight Santana who is an exciting hitter and a viable catcher.



This is what they (they being the posters who won't let this die) don't seem to understand. He can still be good/great and not be as good as Posey. They're both good right now and have limitless ceilings but Posey just has the longer track record, even if it is only an extra half year, and has led his team to a World Series. That's the only real difference other than the subtle ones i.e. one's a slightly better hitter, the other a slightly better defender etc.

Posey didn't lead anything and it wasn't his team. It was Tim Lincecum's team.


What about the 4 days that Lincecum sat on the bench thinking about which bong was his favorite? Who's team was it those days?

In the Giants' final 3 wins the SF starting pitchers gave up a grand total of 1 run. Sure, Buster Posey is the catcher and plays a part in that, but he's hardly the one to credit. If you're giving him credit for that you also have to say Posey's the one to blame for Lincecum having a 7.82 ERA in August. But you wouldn't blame Posey for sucking, so he doesn't get the credit for the Giants pitchers simply being supremely talented and clutch. It wasn't his team and he didn't lead them anywhere. He was a follower.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun May 08, 2011 4:05 pm

statmasta wrote:I'll take Santana over Posey, no doubt about it. The whole "Posey's a winner and a leader" stuff is all a myth. If you switch them and put Carlos Santana on the Giants, guess what? The Giants still win the World Series. It doesn't make Posey better, it just means he was on a better team. Santana's the better player.


I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed you writing this one post after declaring the Giants "Tim Lincecum's Team."
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 4:07 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:I'll take Santana over Posey, no doubt about it. The whole "Posey's a winner and a leader" stuff is all a myth. If you switch them and put Carlos Santana on the Giants, guess what? The Giants still win the World Series. It doesn't make Posey better, it just means he was on a better team. Santana's the better player.


I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed you writing this one post after declaring the Giants "Tim Lincecum's Team."

Get to the point. It wasn't contradictory, so how else could it be amusing to you?

Posey wasn't the man who put the Giants over the top. He was a good player last year (clearly, NL ROY) but he didn't lead them to the WS. They'd still win it if Santana was on the team instead. But take Tim Lincecum off and it's not the same story.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun May 08, 2011 4:15 pm

statmasta wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:I'll take Santana over Posey, no doubt about it. The whole "Posey's a winner and a leader" stuff is all a myth. If you switch them and put Carlos Santana on the Giants, guess what? The Giants still win the World Series. It doesn't make Posey better, it just means he was on a better team. Santana's the better player.


I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed you writing this one post after declaring the Giants "Tim Lincecum's Team."

Get to the point. It wasn't contradictory, so how else could it be amusing to you?

Posey wasn't the man who put the Giants over the top. He was a good player last year (clearly, NL ROY) but he didn't lead them to the WS. They'd still win it if Santana was on the team instead. But take Tim Lincecum off and it's not the same story.


In one breath you declared the Giants Tim Lincecum's team, basically implying that he's a winner. You further solidify this thought by stating that Lincecum is the one who "put them over the top." You do this despite the fact that the Giants somehow managed to not win the World Series in 2007, 2008, or 2009 even though by your logic they should have been over the top already. Whatever that means.

I guess my point is that you are applying mythical qualities to Lincecum and depriving similar mythical qualities to Posey based on what you already perceive to be the truth. They are non quantifiable and inarguable, therefore retarded.

You are straddling the fence. If you do it long enough you are bound to slip and land on your balls.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 4:29 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:I'll take Santana over Posey, no doubt about it. The whole "Posey's a winner and a leader" stuff is all a myth. If you switch them and put Carlos Santana on the Giants, guess what? The Giants still win the World Series. It doesn't make Posey better, it just means he was on a better team. Santana's the better player.


I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed you writing this one post after declaring the Giants "Tim Lincecum's Team."

Get to the point. It wasn't contradictory, so how else could it be amusing to you?

Posey wasn't the man who put the Giants over the top. He was a good player last year (clearly, NL ROY) but he didn't lead them to the WS. They'd still win it if Santana was on the team instead. But take Tim Lincecum off and it's not the same story.


In one breath you declared the Giants Tim Lincecum's team, basically implying that he's a winner. You further solidify this thought by stating that Lincecum is the one who "put them over the top." You do this despite the fact that the Giants somehow managed to not win the World Series in 2007, 2008, or 2009 even though by your logic they should have been over the top already. Whatever that means.

I guess my point is that you are applying mythical qualities to Lincecum and depriving similar mythical qualities to Posey based on what you already perceive to be the truth. They are non quantifiable and inarguable, therefore retarded.

You are straddling the fence. If you do it long enough you are bound to slip and land on your balls.

I never stated Lincecum put them over the top.

Don't make shit up. I never said that. My posts were not contradictory in any way, shape or form. If you think they are you need to re-read them.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 4:32 pm

And the whole point of this and everything I argue is to take away all of these mythical qualities being applied to any players, including Posey and Lincecum. I want to discuss facts, not shit like "Posey's a winner!!!11"

And yet when I discuss facts, all I get is "HAHAHHA STUPID STAT GEEK YOU DON'T WATCH BASEBALL! Let's all point and laugh! Everybody in the country knows and would never bother debating such a childish thought such as Santana being better than Posey! HA! What a farce!"
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun May 08, 2011 4:40 pm

statmasta wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:I'll take Santana over Posey, no doubt about it. The whole "Posey's a winner and a leader" stuff is all a myth. If you switch them and put Carlos Santana on the Giants, guess what? The Giants still win the World Series. It doesn't make Posey better, it just means he was on a better team. Santana's the better player.


I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed you writing this one post after declaring the Giants "Tim Lincecum's Team."

Get to the point. It wasn't contradictory, so how else could it be amusing to you?

Posey wasn't the man who put the Giants over the top. He was a good player last year (clearly, NL ROY) but he didn't lead them to the WS. They'd still win it if Santana was on the team instead. But take Tim Lincecum off and it's not the same story.


In one breath you declared the Giants Tim Lincecum's team, basically implying that he's a winner. You further solidify this thought by stating that Lincecum is the one who "put them over the top." You do this despite the fact that the Giants somehow managed to not win the World Series in 2007, 2008, or 2009 even though by your logic they should have been over the top already. Whatever that means.

I guess my point is that you are applying mythical qualities to Lincecum and depriving similar mythical qualities to Posey based on what you already perceive to be the truth. They are non quantifiable and inarguable, therefore retarded.

You are straddling the fence. If you do it long enough you are bound to slip and land on your balls.

I never stated Lincecum put them over the top.

Don't make shit up. I never said that. My posts were not contradictory in any way, shape or form. If you think they are you need to re-read them.


You are right. You didn't say that Tim Lincecum put them over the top. Let me try to summarize what you are saying to make sure I'm understanding.

1. You say that Buster Posey didn't put the Giants "over the top" and you don't like to consider him a "winner" nor a "leader".

2. Then you talk about how if the Giants replaced Posey with Santana they would still win the World Series.

3. You basically imply that you believe that if the Giant's took Lincecum off of the team they would likely NOT win the World Series.

Please let me know if this is accurate. If it is I will them proceed to tell you why your argument is shit.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 4:53 pm

Again with the attacks. What is with you people?

Anyway, you're assuming again. I said "the story wouldn't be the same". They may have won, they may not have. I don't know. But Lincecum was more crucial to the Giants' success in the playoffs than Buster Posey. There's a reason he was the World Series MVP.


ANYWAY.....all of this is immaterial. Again, it doesn't matter. Posey, whether or not he's a "winner" or a "leader", it doesn't make him better than Santana. You know who else is a "winner"? Orlando Cabrera. But would you rather have him than Brandon Phillips? Let's stick to the facts. All of this speculation wasn't what I was going for and we're getting sidetracked. Feel free to tell me why I'm a complete retard, but it really doesn't matter.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun May 08, 2011 5:08 pm

WTF? Who's attacking you?

I'm trying to tell you why I think your argument sucks, but all you want to do is argue the fucking semantics of your previous posts. At this point I don't know what the fuck you are trying to say so I have no idea how to respond to it.

"The Story wouldn't be the same"? Huh? If that doesn't mean that the Giants would not win the World Series if you took Lincecum off the team, then could you kindly explain exactly what the fuck it does mean so I can finally respond to it?

You people?

Or am I supposed to have a discussion about it based around "maybe, maybe not."?
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby gotribe31 » Sun May 08, 2011 5:26 pm

statmasta wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:They are both really good hitters who are more talented then they have shown so far this season. Both are good defenders, but Posey is better at this stage in their respective careers. Not sure what is the point of putting up a month+ worth of triple slash line and saying one is better than the other right now.

How is Posey better?

Posey does two things better than Santana, imo: Goes to the opposite field (usually weak ground balls or flares) and he has a quicker release when throwing out base stealers.

Santana's just as good or better in every other aspect of the game. Better at putting the barrell of the bat on the ball, better plate discipline and vision, more power, strikes out at a similarly low rate, walks more, similarly athletic, just as strong of an arm.

I'll take Santana over Posey, no doubt about it. The whole "Posey's a winner and a leader" stuff is all a myth. If you switch them and put Carlos Santana on the Giants, guess what? The Giants still win the World Series. It doesn't make Posey better, it just means he was on a better team. Santana's the better player.


Posey is a better defender because he is a far better reciever at this point and gets the ball from home plate to 2nd base quicker. Does that explain it clearly enough for you?

I never said anything about him being a winner, or a leader, or anything other than a catcher. I said they're both struggling with the bat this year despite being talented, and Posey is a better defender. Stop bitching about everyone in here picking on you when A) that isn't the case and B) you came in here and started this thread looking for an argument.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 5:29 pm

gotribe31 wrote:
statmasta wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:They are both really good hitters who are more talented then they have shown so far this season. Both are good defenders, but Posey is better at this stage in their respective careers. Not sure what is the point of putting up a month+ worth of triple slash line and saying one is better than the other right now.

How is Posey better?

Posey does two things better than Santana, imo: Goes to the opposite field (usually weak ground balls or flares) and he has a quicker release when throwing out base stealers.

Santana's just as good or better in every other aspect of the game. Better at putting the barrell of the bat on the ball, better plate discipline and vision, more power, strikes out at a similarly low rate, walks more, similarly athletic, just as strong of an arm.

I'll take Santana over Posey, no doubt about it. The whole "Posey's a winner and a leader" stuff is all a myth. If you switch them and put Carlos Santana on the Giants, guess what? The Giants still win the World Series. It doesn't make Posey better, it just means he was on a better team. Santana's the better player.


Posey is a better defender because he is a far better reciever at this point and gets the ball from home plate to 2nd base quicker. Does that explain it clearly enough for you?

I never said anything about him being a winner, or a leader, or anything other than a catcher. I said they're both struggling with the bat this year despite being talented, and Posey is a better defender. Stop bitching about everyone in here picking on you when A) that isn't the case and B) you came in here and started this thread looking for an argument.

I already said Posey had the quicker release. Santana's still the better player.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 5:30 pm

motherscratcher wrote:WTF? Who's attacking you?

I guess it's mostly just Peeker. So nevermind.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun May 08, 2011 5:30 pm

Everyone attacks him, no one can read, it's always taken out of context and no one gets him.

How many can't read before it's determined dude doesn't do a very good job of saying what he's thinking or he's just a douchebag?

Not to mention it takes two seconds to search this site and continue this fuckfest in the thread it was started as opposed to trolling with a new one when the numbers permit him to do so.

It keeps getting clearer and we're nearing the finish line. Douchebag is running away with it with Misunderstood and Everyone Hates Me falling further behind.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 5:31 pm

Just tell me why Posey is the better player, Peeker.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 5:35 pm

peeker643 wrote:Everyone attacks him, no one can read, it's always taken out of context and no one gets him.

How many can't read before it's determined dude doesn't do a very good job of saying what he's thinking or he's just a douchebag?

Not to mention it takes two seconds to search this site and continue this fuckfest in the thread it was started as opposed to trolling with a new one when the numbers permit him to do so.

It keeps getting clearer and we're nearing the finish line. Douchebag is running away with it with Misunderstood and Everyone Hates Me falling further behind.

I'm sorry but I've been a little edgy ever since I fucking registered for this site.

I didn't get more than 20 posts in before the founder of this site personally attacked me for being an idiot and a liar. And I didn't do ANYTHING to deserve any personal attacks from anybody. I've been treated like completely garbage from day 1 on here.

I'm sorry if I've made it worse but I wasn't exactly welcomed here. I tried to just be invisible and just be another poster, but some posters just wouldn't allow that for some reason. Every thread I posted in they called me out because they thought I was another poster they didn't like, or something. I don't know the whole story, all I know is I was treated like complete trash from the day I started posting.

Honestly, I'll try to be a better poster. I don't mean to incite any flame wars. I'm sorry.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun May 08, 2011 5:44 pm

statmasta wrote:Just tell me why Posey is the better player, Peeker.


I already did.

Or rather, GoTribe31 did and that's dead-nuts on IMO. Similar offensively,with Posey winning out with defense and game calling. And you can find the quotes from Lincecum, Cain et al that talk about that.

Santatna has already had an issue or two in the clubhouse (C Perez) and simply doesn't throw as well as Posey does.

Look dude, I'd take either of 'em. They're both excellent. One big difference is Posey already lived up to the potential he had coming out of FSU. Santana has not regardless of it being due to an injury.

Look also at that factor. Santana is older and has had major knee surgery.

Add it all up and that's what I get. YMMV and that's fine but don't assume your geo-centric and parochial view of the situation is gospel. There are more people who would take Posey today than Santana. There just are. Am I glad Santana is here? Hell yes.

And if you stop taking everything so GD personally regardless of why, things would be much better down the road. Sorry it got off to a bad start but everyone has moved on.

Just sayin'....
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun May 08, 2011 5:58 pm

OK Statmasta, I'll tell you why I think the argument that I thought you were making sucked.

First, if you take Posey off the giants and replace him with Santana, it seems like you are saying that they would still have won the WS. On that I tend to agree, although it is clearly not stat based and is unquantifiable and is a matter of opinion. Not much of an argument for someone talking stats.

Then, you imply that taking Lincicum off the Giants would mean that they probably lose the WS. You might be right there to, although it is also a matter of opinion.

The problem with this argument is that you don't say who you are replacing Lincecum with and I am left to assume that he is being replaced with a replacement level player.

Posey and Santana, no matter which on you might think is better, are both great young players with tons of potential who have both shown reason to believe that they will play at a high level. Replacing Posey with Santana is using a player of equal value, or at least close enough to it to render it moot. In this argument, Posey and Santana are the same player.

However, replacing Lincecum with a replacement player is obviously a different story. Saying that replacing Tim Lincecum with Jeff Suppan last year would have made the Giants worse and less likely to win the WS is pointless. Everyone knows that. And it isn't close to the same thing as replacing Posey with Santan.

If you want to compare apples to apples, you need to also replace Lincecum with someone of arguably equal value. It's the only way the argument makes any sense.

So, using WAR on fangraphs for 2008-2010, the years in which we have the best data on Timmy, it shows that Lincecum is the 3rd best pither. If we use the 4 pitchers closest to Lincecum in WAR, we would be replacing him with Sabathia, Lee, Halladay, or Greinke.

And yeah, I think if you replace Lincecum with one of those guys, the Giants probably wouldn't show to much of a falloff.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby statmasta » Sun May 08, 2011 6:01 pm

The last two replies were excellent, thank you. I have to go now, so I'll respond in more detail later tonight.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun May 08, 2011 9:32 pm

No horse in this race, as I don't give a shit who is better. Just wanted to add to statmasta that there are a lot of people on the boards who don't know how to make an argument without laying it on thick. It's very easy to misunderstand somebody's tone through the text that they're typing out. It's an inherent problem with message boards and something I deal with anytime I get in a discussion on here.

Case in point, I swear a ton. In my everyday life, I can't go five minutes without dropping the f word, and that always comes off as confrontational or attacking in a post. Generally, it's not.

So, take a step off the ledge, bud. While you took some shit trying to get acclimated and get recognized, you had your toes stomped on. Let bygones be bygones and move forward, engaging in intelligent discussion.

If you take away the self-pitying parts of your argument based on misunderstandings or whatever, I think you've, for the most part, solidly supported YOUR point of view, whether I agree with it or not.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun May 08, 2011 9:57 pm

Only on the Tribe boards could you find someone dim enough to choose a moment when the player he is claiming to be superior is hitting .217.

Yeah, Posey sure wasn't a leader, just came up and raked from an important part of the line-up and handled a veteran staff well - and you can find several instances in which the Giant pitchers said as much. And once he arrived on the scene the team took a northern turn.

FYI, receiving is the most important part about that position. Calling the game - being in sync with your guys (Unlike Santana, who still has issues with a couple - one is obvious enough that all you would have to do this year is WATCH THE GAMES to know who I'm speaking of) understanding their strenghs that day etc.

Not a GD GM in the league that would choose Santana over Posey.

Not

A

One.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby FUDU » Sun May 08, 2011 10:05 pm

Neither will ever be in strat ATG so who cares, right peek.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon May 09, 2011 9:10 am

FUDU wrote:Neither will ever be in strat ATG so who cares, right peek.


Never heard of theis 'strat' thing. I simply know not of what you speak. Never happened.

;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby Jumbo » Mon May 09, 2011 11:07 am

This topic used to be kind of funny, especially earlier in the season when Santana was having major issues. But now it's just become blatant troll-bait. It just means that the next time Posey goes 3-4 with a homer while Santana is 1 for his last 15 that pup or pipe somebody will just drop in with "See! See! Posey is better!"

:dead:

As for the supposedly relevant point:

statmasta wrote::hide:

Santana has a higher OBP and higher SLG than Posey, and thus he has a better OPS. So despite being supposedly awful this year, he's still better than Posey. Hmm...

Santana: .217/.333/.396/.730
B Posey: .245/.328/.373/.701


You're doing an awfully bad job of making a stats-based argument. As long as you're cherry-picking numbers after only one month of baseball, note that Posey's UZR (according to fangraphs) is 2.2, while Santana's is -.5. So Posey has 1.0 WAR including defense, and Santana .7.

So, that means Posey's better, right? No. Of course not. But it also shows that just taking one month of numbers without context doesn't give you enough information to say much more than "For the first month of the season, Santana has been marginally more productive offensively."

FWIW, if they both reach their potential, they'll both be excellent, with Santana being a little bit better with the bat, and Posey a little bit better with the glove. I don't think that "leadership" and other fuzzy qualities make a huge difference, which is why when this topic first came up I thought that Posey was getting more credit than necessary. It had seemed like to even suggest that Santana was in a similar category to Posey was to denigrate Posey, or overrate Santana (before he had proved himself), or some combination of the two.

Actual relevant analysis: Despite Santana having some periods of struggling in the first month of the season, the thing that has really impressed me is that he generally has maintained a very good eye at the plate. Although this has caused him to take some borderline pitches for strikes, especially called third strikes that he probably should have swung at (like that game-ender), he has avoided chasing pitches outside of the zone. So, to the extent he gets overanxious, it's by looking for just one pitch in one location rather than swinging at everything close. I think the first is a more correctible problem than the second.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby pup » Mon May 09, 2011 12:49 pm

The next time Lead or myself shows up with one game of proof and saying anything will be the first.

Call 32 GMs and ask their opinion.

And quit making it sound like it is a slight. Being the second best young catcher in the game is not really that bad of a deal.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby JCoz » Mon May 09, 2011 1:00 pm

Clearly a few hours of time well spent on this thread.

Is this how is usually is in this forum or is the current state of the NFL and Cavs (vs recent past years) contributing to this mess?

NM, carry on.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby gotribe31 » Mon May 09, 2011 2:17 pm

JCoz wrote:Clearly a few hours of time well spent on this thread.

Is this how is usually is in this forum or is the current state of the NFL and Cavs (vs recent past years) contributing to this mess?

NM, carry on.


Unfortuneatly, this is pretty much business as usual on the Tribe boards. Peek acts like he's frustrated, but he secretly loves it.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby Jumbo » Mon May 09, 2011 3:00 pm

pup wrote:The next time Lead or myself shows up with one game of proof and saying anything will be the first.


I'm confused. So this wasn't "saying anything" based on just one game?

http://theclevelandfan.com/boards/index.php?f=3&t=20206&p=419702&rb_v=viewtopic#p419702

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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby Jumbo » Mon May 09, 2011 3:05 pm

JCoz wrote:Clearly a few hours of time well spent on this thread.

Is this how is usually is in this forum or is the current state of the NFL and Cavs (vs recent past years) contributing to this mess?

NM, carry on.


Pretty much, yeah.

The only difference is that this forum is usually overwhelmed by comparing how bad our roster is to the guys we left.

Now it's paralyzed by comparing how good our players are to the best in the league!

:thumb up:
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby pup » Mon May 09, 2011 3:15 pm

Jumbo wrote:
pup wrote:The next time Lead or myself shows up with one game of proof and saying anything will be the first.


I'm confused. So this wasn't "saying anything" based on just one game?

http://theclevelandfan.com/boards/index.php?f=3&t=20206&p=419702&rb_v=viewtopic#p419702

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No, it was based off about 200 MLB AB's. In which he hit about .230 and throw out about 20% of the runners stealing in his career. Instead of .350 and 40%.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon May 09, 2011 4:48 pm

Jumbo wrote:
pup wrote:The next time Lead or myself shows up with one game of proof and saying anything will be the first.


I'm confused. So this wasn't "saying anything" based on just one game?

http://theclevelandfan.com/boards/index.php?f=3&t=20206&p=419702&rb_v=viewtopic#p419702

I hate off-days.


Is this how it's going to be Jumbo?

Really?

No need to bring "I told you so's" cause to a rational thinking person, the "I told you so's" would be as ridiculous as the original moronic point they would be applied to.

One thing is crystal clear, there is no more defensive group on all these boards than stat guy. While you're re-reading threads on your "off-day" why don't you check out the zillion in which someone has a minor disagreement with "stat guy," and stat guy just fires back with YOU JUST HATE SABRBLAAHBLASAAAAHHH!! The common theme being it's stat guy that handles rational debates poorly- I would assume because the stats are the end all be all in their mind.

You think Santana is better, Pup and I think 32 teams would choose otherwise. And for that, in your mind, we seemed to have morphed into stat hating 4th graders. There's plenty of cats on this site that already give stats a bad name - cause they have no earthly idea how to use them. Thought you were in a different class there Jumbo, but it seems you're gettin' close.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby Jumbo » Mon May 09, 2011 7:50 pm

leadpipe wrote:
Jumbo wrote:
pup wrote:The next time Lead or myself shows up with one game of proof and saying anything will be the first.


I'm confused. So this wasn't "saying anything" based on just one game?

http://theclevelandfan.com/boards/index.php?f=3&t=20206&p=419702&rb_v=viewtopic#p419702

I hate off-days.


Is this how it's going to be Jumbo?

Really?



For the love of God. I was taking your and pup's side. Statmasta said that stats showed that Santana was better so far this season. I used stats to show that he wasn't. And then, what set you guys off, was that I said that Statmasta making such blatantly bad arguments that he made the "I told you so's" much easier for you guys if Santana has a bad game or a bad week or a bad month.

And Pup said that he'd never go there. Except that he had: I doubt that Pup would've played the Posey card if, two minutes earlier, Santana had come through in the clutch, whether or not Santana was hitting under .200 at the time. But whatever: I wasn't going to respond to that by itself, since that would've just been going down a "You said that!" "No I didn't!" kind of road. But since you both didn't follow, I thought I'd explain.

One thing is crystal clear, there is no more defensive group on all these boards than stat guy. While you're re-reading threads on your "off-day" why don't you check out the zillion in which someone has a minor disagreement with "stat guy," and stat guy just fires back with YOU JUST HATE SABRBLAAHBLASAAAAHHH!!


Different POVs. There's been plenty of posts suggesting that people who use stats don't watch the game, or can't enjoy the game, or Just Don't Understand.

You think Santana is better, Pup and I think 32 teams would choose otherwise.


I said that if they both reach their potential, they'd both be excellent, and Santana would be a little bit better with the bat, and Santana would be a little bit better with the glove. That does not equate to "Santana is better." Hell, in the post I linked above I immediately said afterwards that Posey is better right now. I just think Santana has better offensive potential. For the life of me I can't see what's so controversial about that. It's a simple opinion.

And for that, in your mind, we seemed to have morphed into stat hating 4th graders. There's plenty of cats on this site that already give stats a bad name - cause they have no earthly idea how to use them. Thought you were in a different class there Jumbo, but it seems you're gettin' close.


Given that the only stats I used in this thread my said that Posey was better than Santana, I don't get it.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Fri May 27, 2011 9:28 pm

Well they have one thing in common- horrible leg injuries at home plate ending their seasons.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Sat May 28, 2011 11:07 pm

I have to say Posey right now is better than Santanna because in the. at bats I have seen by Posey he at least attempts to go the other way and isnt pull happy.
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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby RickNashEquilibrium » Sat May 28, 2011 11:54 pm

This thread sucks and no one got any smarter for participating in it. I'm calling it to be locked because seriously, at the end of this season, these guys WON'T EVEN HAVE 2 FULL YEARS UNDER THEIR FUCKING BELTS. STFU with all this ridiculous nonsense. Find something better to talk about, like our hometeam leading the Central 2 months into the season. JFC ::doh::

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Re: Carlos Santana is better than Buster Posey

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Sun May 29, 2011 1:08 am

somebodies panties are in a twist
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