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Huff Vs White

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Huff Vs White

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:22 pm

If Carlos misses his next start(very possible) then I imagine it would be one of these two unless they pull off a trade for King Felix..... :lmfao:

My vote is for White, I know he has only 20 innings at Triple A this year but David Huff in 9 career innings against Detroit has given up 9 runs and Jackson, Cabrera, Raburn, Boesch, Inge and Ordonez are hitting a combined .450 off of him. That isnt good, we cant afford to get swept and I have no confidence in Huff, Maybe at least White if he has his good stuff could keep the Tigers off balance since they have never seen him before and that could also work in his favor throughout the first part of the season.

I dont want to rush White either and mess up his development and it would also depend who they would have to take off the 40 man roster and that corresponding move. But I still vote White.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:40 pm

Wouldn't you have to drop someone from the 40-man roster to bring up White?

They could lose Travis Buck and not even know it IMHO. I don't know if there's anyone else that they would want to expose to waivers or whatever the process is when you remove someone from the 40-man.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:01 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Wouldn't you have to drop someone from the 40-man roster to bring up White?

They could lose Travis Buck and not even know it IMHO. I don't know if there's anyone else that they would want to expose to waivers or whatever the process is when you remove someone from the 40-man.


Yep. They could also drop Valbuena, though I think they're still hoping he figures something out.

White won't come up. If it was a month later, maybe. If we got past the Super Two deadline.

They're going to give Huff every opportunity to pitch his way out of the organization.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:27 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Yep. They could also drop Valbuena, though I think they're still hoping he figures something out.

White won't come up. If it was a month later, maybe. If we got past the Super Two deadline.

They're going to give Huff every opportunity to pitch his way out of the organization.


Oh I agree that they will Bring Huff up, I just would rather bring up White. I understand the super two but I would give that up and pay a little extra since I feel this move makes us a better team and helps us contend this year or at least potentially can help us contend this year.

Really Im playing more of a Devil's advocate on this, Since Huff make smore logical sense but hey nobody thought we would be leading the division...Lets try something outside the box. Besides if somebody else gets hurt isnt he next in line anyways?
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby gotribe31 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:34 pm

White with another solid start tonight. 5 2/3 IP, ER, 5 H, 2 BB, 8 K. Only run he gave up was a solo HR in the 1st.

If he gives the club the best chance to win, I think they'll bring him up. All depends on the development of the slider (which has definitely come a long way since this time last season).

That being said, I think Huff gets the 1st shot, but he'll be on a short leash.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:01 am

To many reasons not to bring up Huff; lefty, super-two, 40-man, MLB experience. No way to they pick White. If they do, it will signal a sharp schism between the Mark and Chris eras.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:47 am

Huff is 26 years old. He's a former supplemental first round pick who has been on the fringe of the majors for the last two years. He won 11 games for the Tribe in 2009. He's pitching very well in AAA right now. It's time for him to put up or shut up.

With White, De La Cruz, and Pomeranz in the pipeline, not to mention a couple of high ceiling guys in the lower levels like Gardner and Knapp, it's time to find out if Huff can pitch successfully in the majors. If he can, maybe we can get something for him in a deal with a team that needs a left-handed starter or long man. If he still can't get major league hitters out at this point in his career we need to know that, too. The clock is ticking on this guy. If Carrasco needs to miss a start or two we might as well use the opportunity to let Huff face some major league hitters. The Tigers would be a good test for him.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:03 am

Wasn't White trying to master a 3rd pitch & that was the last thing he needed before coming up to start?

Any update on that prticular point of development?
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:45 am

jb wrote:Wasn't White trying to master a 3rd pitch & that was the last thing he needed before coming up to start?

Any update on that prticular point of development?


Correct JB, his slider. It has gotten much better, to the point where it is probably an average AAA pitch with more room to grow. When you combine it with a plus sinking fastball and a plus-plus splitter...well, that's all he really needs to get AAA hitters out. Is he ready to do the same to ML hitters? Probably not quite there yet. Will he get there this year? Maybe. I definitely think he will pitch in Cleveland at some point in 2011.

For what it's worth, the slider was a quality pitch for him in HS, but he got away from it in college because the splitter was so much more effective against the metal bats. So it's not like he is learning an entirely new pitch.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:52 am

Prosecutor wrote:Huff is 26 years old. He's a former supplemental first round pick who has been on the fringe of the majors for the last two years. He won 11 games for the Tribe in 2009. He's pitching very well in AAA right now. It's time for him to put up or shut up.

With White, De La Cruz, and Pomeranz in the pipeline, not to mention a couple of high ceiling guys in the lower levels like Gardner and Knapp, it's time to find out if Huff can pitch successfully in the majors. If he can, maybe we can get something for him in a deal with a team that needs a left-handed starter or long man. If he still can't get major league hitters out at this point in his career we need to know that, too. The clock is ticking on this guy. If Carrasco needs to miss a start or two we might as well use the opportunity to let Huff face some major league hitters. The Tigers would be a good test for him.


Pros is right. Maybe we've already seen the best (and worst) of David Huff but it's time to give him that last strike before setting him loose. The likelihood that something 'clicked' is low but a 26 yr old lefty gets that extra opportunity that others don't.

Give it to him now if someone is needed and then see what happens. At worst you get the last look at the guy and at best he's figured something out.

White isn't ready. Not yet. Guys like Huff and JLewis, JGermano are maybe just organizational depth. But that's what you're looking for in this situation if Car Carrasco needs to skip a start or two.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby danwismar » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:04 pm

gotribe31 wrote:Correct JB, his slider. It has gotten much better, to the point where it is probably an average AAA pitch with more room to grow. When you combine it with a plus sinking fastball and a plus-plus splitter...well, that's all he really needs to get AAA hitters out. Is he ready to do the same to ML hitters? Probably not quite there yet. Will he get there this year? Maybe. I definitely think he will pitch in Cleveland at some point in 2011.

For what it's worth, the slider was a quality pitch for him in HS, but he got away from it in college because the splitter was so much more effective against the metal bats. So it's not like he is learning an entirely new pitch.


I was monitoring your tweet exchange with Shapiro the other day on the subject of the progress of White's slider. (Twitter is part voyeurism) How freaking cool is Twitter that you can shoot out a question like that to the team GM and get a candid reply back immediately?

Very cool, that's how cool.

Edit: sorry...team president...not GM.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:45 pm

Before we get too excited about the possibility of David Huff turning the corner, consider that he has walked 10 and struck out 8 in Columbus so far. He never could strike anyone out. Now he's walking more than ever before.

Small sample and all, but it sure looks like he's regressed since last season. This follows a patter of regression in EVERY season.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:07 pm

danwismar wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:Correct JB, his slider. It has gotten much better, to the point where it is probably an average AAA pitch with more room to grow. When you combine it with a plus sinking fastball and a plus-plus splitter...well, that's all he really needs to get AAA hitters out. Is he ready to do the same to ML hitters? Probably not quite there yet. Will he get there this year? Maybe. I definitely think he will pitch in Cleveland at some point in 2011.

For what it's worth, the slider was a quality pitch for him in HS, but he got away from it in college because the splitter was so much more effective against the metal bats. So it's not like he is learning an entirely new pitch.


I was monitoring your tweet exchange with Shapiro the other day on the subject of the progress of White's slider. (Twitter is part voyeurism) How freaking cool is Twitter that you can shoot out a question like that to the team GM and get a candid reply back immediately?

Very cool, that's how cool.

Edit: sorry...team president...not GM.


Yeah, that was really cool. I was pleasantly surprised that he responded, and was really happy with the reply. It's one thing for me to look at White and say that I think his slider has improved, but it puts a whole different context on it when you get a guy like that to comment on it. The age we live in...
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:56 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Before we get too excited about the possibility of David Huff turning the corner, consider that he has walked 10 and struck out 8 in Columbus so far. He never could strike anyone out. Now he's walking more than ever before.

Small sample and all, but it sure looks like he's regressed since last season. This follows a patter of regression in EVERY season.


I'm definitely not optimistic about Huff. It's rare to see a pitcher that has given up the same number of hits and walks. In this case Huff has allowed few hits (only 10 in 17 innings) but a lot of walks (10). I haven't seen him pitch but the numbers suggest he is working the edges of the strike zone and either getting hitters to swing at his pitch or walking them. This doesn't bode well for success in the majors if he has to nibble in order to get AAA hitters out.

Still, rather than start White's clock a year before we have to it makes more sense to give Huff another bite at the apple. Tony says we need to write off last year's crappy performance due to injury. The year before that he pitched well at times at the M.L. level and won 11 games, so if he's healthy he deserves one more shot. Especially since we don't have to take somebody off the roster to do it (although I wouldn't lose any sleep if Valbuena were designated for assignment).
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:00 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Before we get too excited about the possibility of David Huff turning the corner, consider that he has walked 10 and struck out 8 in Columbus so far. He never could strike anyone out. Now he's walking more than ever before.

Small sample and all, but it sure looks like he's regressed since last season. This follows a patter of regression in EVERY season.


Given the fact that Columbus has played nearly all of its games in wet/cold conditions, I think it's unfair to judge his walk totals to this point. Hard to grip the ball and with no out pitch, it just means that he's probably been in a lot of deep counts.

Not saying he'll get any better, and really, unfortunately, I don't see him getting a whole lot better, but it's a little unfair at this point to criticize the K/BB that he has.

Until he learns how to pitch inside to lefties and throw some kind of cutter on the outside black to righties, he doesn't have enough stuff to get by.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:03 pm

Huff starts tonight in Columbus, so let's see how he throws with a little pressure. He knows as well as everyone else that he might be up for a start in Cleveland soon, we'll see if it effects him.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:18 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Before we get too excited about the possibility of David Huff turning the corner, consider that he has walked 10 and struck out 8 in Columbus so far. He never could strike anyone out. Now he's walking more than ever before.

Small sample and all, but it sure looks like he's regressed since last season. This follows a patter of regression in EVERY season.


Given the fact that Columbus has played nearly all of its games in wet/cold conditions, I think it's unfair to judge his walk totals to this point. Hard to grip the ball and with no out pitch, it just means that he's probably been in a lot of deep counts.



The weather doesn't seem to bother White much - 3 walks against 20 K's.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:26 pm

Prosecutor wrote:The weather doesn't seem to bother White much - 3 walks against 20 K's.


White's also a much better pitcher who can throw the ball past people.

Do you honestly think David Huff would end the year with (hypothetically), 120 BB and 96 K? Because I don't. That would be a 8/10 K/BB all year.

Swings and misses shorten ABs. Huff wouldn't get swings and misses if it was sunny and 80 everyday. But, he'd have better control.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:37 pm

Huff is averaging 5.3 walks per 9 innnings. That's a lot, but not too bad if you're only giving up 5.3 hits per 9 innings. So far the walks haven't hurt him much as he has been able to get outs with men on base.

What I'm thinking is that Huff finally realized he can't be successful challenging hitters with his fastball, at least not at the AAA/ML level. He has to stay on the edges, even if he gets behind in the count. Better to walk a guy and start even with the next hitter than serve up a meatball because you're behind 3-1.

This is all just a guess based on the unusually low number of hits he's allowed and the unusually high number of walks. If he fundamentally changed his approach to pitching after going 2-11 with the Indians last year, maybe we're seeing evidence of that. If he hasn't fundamentally changed his approach, then he's an idiot.

If he gets a start against the Tigers it's coming at the right time. Ordonez and Austin Jackson are hitting below .200. V-Mart is on the D.L. Two of the Tigers' .300+ hitters at the moment are left-handed. The only right-handed hitter who is hot right now is Miggy Cabrera, who is destroying the league with a .610 slugging percentage. If I were Huff I'd walk him every time.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:37 pm

Prosecutor wrote:If I were Huff I'd walk him every time.


That might be a good strategy for every pitcher.


I just think white gives us the best chance to win games over Huff at this time.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:17 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Wouldn't you have to drop someone from the 40-man roster to bring up White?

They could lose Travis Buck and not even know it IMHO. I don't know if there's anyone else that they would want to expose to waivers or whatever the process is when you remove someone from the 40-man.


Yep. They could also drop Valbuena, though I think they're still hoping he figures something out.

White won't come up. If it was a month later, maybe. If we got past the Super Two deadline.

They're going to give Huff every opportunity to pitch his way out of the organization.

1) Valbuena is awful. Really terrible.

2) Even if he does figure something out, he still doesn't fit here. We already have Kipnis and Phelps who are better.

3) And unfortunately, I agree with your last sentence. Huff doesn't deserve to come up, but I'm expecting he'll get the call. Huff just can't get major leaguers out. He's not good.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:19 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Huff is averaging 5.3 walks per 9 innnings. That's a lot, but not too bad if you're only giving up 5.3 hits per 9 innings. So far the walks haven't hurt him much as he has been able to get outs with men on base.

What I'm thinking is that Huff finally realized he can't be successful challenging hitters with his fastball, at least not at the AAA/ML level. He has to stay on the edges, even if he gets behind in the count. Better to walk a guy and start even with the next hitter than serve up a meatball because you're behind 3-1.

This is all just a guess based on the unusually low number of hits he's allowed and the unusually high number of walks. If he fundamentally changed his approach to pitching after going 2-11 with the Indians last year, maybe we're seeing evidence of that. If he hasn't fundamentally changed his approach, then he's an idiot.

If he gets a start against the Tigers it's coming at the right time. Ordonez and Austin Jackson are hitting below .200. V-Mart is on the D.L. Two of the Tigers' .300+ hitters at the moment are left-handed. The only right-handed hitter who is hot right now is Miggy Cabrera, who is destroying the league with a .610 slugging percentage. If I were Huff I'd walk him every time.

He's not giving up many hits because he's facing Triple-A hitters. Put him in the bigs and that hit rate skyrockets.
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Re: Huff Vs White

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:22 pm

Looks like Carlos might be OK for Saturday after all.

MRI negative, will throw a BP tomorrow and, if all OK, will make his start on Saturday.

If he doesn't, then it doesn't look like Huff will be available on Saturday..... his pitching right now for the Clippers so, unless they use him on 3 days rest, he's out.
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