4/23/2011 Indians @ Minnesota

[British_Pharaoh]

1:10pm ET (6:10pm BST :) )

Grady
A-Cab
Choo
Santana
Pronk
O-Cab
Brantley
LaPorta
Hannahan

Carmona


Span
Repko
Kubel
Morneau
Cuddyer
Thome
Valencia
Butera
Casilla

Duensing

[bookelly]

Wouldn't it be 6:30 GMT?

[British_Pharaoh]

I read wrong. Yesterday's game hasn't been rescheduled.

[andrew6586]

Why don't they just play a double header today?

[Bayou Tribe]

Nice pic, but I prefer my Carmona beating the shit out of Gary Sheffield (and subsequently scaring the beejesus out of Droobs).

[GodHatesClevelandSport]

Because they can play 7/21 when the weather is nice.

[huber14]

Because no one wants anything to do with the Indians right now and would rather take their chances later in the year.

[skatingtripods]

Get this one and guarantee a .500 trip. I'd be happy with that.

[British_Pharaoh]

Morneau looks really slim

[huber14]

Well, this game is over already. Duensing has his A game and the Tribe isn't hitting.

[British_Pharaoh]

Duensing is gash. A-Cab is on after being down 0-2 so let's get some runs

[British_Pharaoh]

runners on the corners no outs

Let's not waste this

[British_Pharaoh]

Time to shift Santana down in the order

Bump Pronky back into the cleanup slot

[British_Pharaoh]

Some shocking at bats there with runners on base

[huber14]

needed more than 1 run there

[skatingtripods]

Fausto has no consistency with anything today. Getting too much plate, not repeating his delivery, and it seems like he's having mood swings out there and not keeping his composure.

[huber14]

now it's over...peace out

[British_Pharaoh]

Indians look like they don't want to be there.

[Sol Solis]

I realize that Fausto didn't keep them in the game at all... but the Indians offense has been anemic. It's actually painful to watch.

[British_Pharaoh]

Typical that Minnesota would get a lot of offensive firsts this season against us

[skatingtripods]

The extra off day due to the rainout hurt them. They've been playing with a lot of emotion and relaxed yesterday and I think that really slowed them down.

18 of 28 at home after tomorrow's game. Have to make those count.

[Sol Solis]

Orlando is really having some defensive issues today for whatever reason.

[British_Pharaoh]

Grady keeps on hitting which is a good thing from today

[skatingtripods]

Excellent AB by Hannahan prior to the Grady HR.

That's Hannahan on base twice against a LHP again today.

[Prosecutor]

Somebody explain to me again why we signed Chad Durbin.

Oh yeah, veteran leadership.

I don't think he'll be around long.

[peeker643]

Somebody explain to me again why we signed Chad Durbin.

Oh yeah, veteran leadership.

I don't think he'll be around long.

No. As usual you take the wrong route. They signed him because he's proven himself in the past to be able to get out major league hitters. Something Pestano, Germano, et al had not proven.

And this is, last time I checked, Major League Baseball where Major League hitters do play. Therefore someone who's proven to be capable of retiring those hitters gets asked to continue doing so until he proves to be no longer capable.

Then he is asked to leave.

Durbin may well be enroute to leaving. Two more weeks to see if he regains any feel for what was formerly a major league breaking ball. If he doesn't find it by then he'll be heading elsewhere as long as Pestano continues to perform at this level.

Active players who are 'leaders' need to perform to some minimal expectations at the least. Durbin is not doing that yet. But the Indians would love him to regain that form and my impression is that he gets a couple more weeks. I'l be there Friday and Saturday next weekend. I expect I'll see him still with the club.

I do have to say Pros, until you actually watch these games and have some idea of what you're talking about, people who do are going to continue to either beat you up about it or, worse, completely ignore you.

[Am I Here Again?]

When you look at Durbin's stats he wasn't all that good as a pitcher for a great majority of his career. Sure he had a good year with Philly last year but last year's stats aren't going to help this year's team. I remember hearing Hammy say (today? yesterday? It was in this series) that the Indians are hoping that Durbin can pitch like he did for Philly...and that he just hasn't shown it yet. Hammy didn't sound too hopeful, either, that Durbin would be quality pitching anytime soon.

[Prosecutor]

I do have to say Pros, until you actually watch these games and have some idea of what you're talking about, people who do are going to continue to either beat you up about it or, worse, completely ignore you.

I've seen every inning Durbin has pitched this year, for your information. Seven earned runs in eight innings. This is the first time I've said anything because I wanted to give him a chance.

Last year Durbin's ERA was 3.80, which is not particularly good for a National League reliever. The year before that it was 4.39. He did have one good year in 2008 with an ERA of 2.87, but that was the only time in his 10-year career that he was below 4.39. His career ERA is 5.08.

So if you want to characterize him as a guy who has proven he can get big league hitters out, go right ahead. Technically you are correct. He just never got them out all that consistently, except for one year. And from the games I've watched, he still doesn't. If you want to be President of his Fan Club, he probably needs one.

How soon he'll be replaced probably depends on who they have in Columbus who they feel is ready. Zach Putnam has an ERA of 1.08 and Tony wrote that he expects to see him in Cleveland this year. Josh Judy is another candidate. But AAA performance isn't everything. Frank Herrmann put up sick numbers for the Clips early last year but wasn't all that great after being promoted to Cleveland. When they feel somebody in Columbus is ready they'll bring him up and cut either Durbin or Germano loose. In the meantime, I hope Durbin figures out what he needs to do to get back to that level of fringe M.L. reliever that he has established over the last ten years.

Funny, I don't feel beat up. I don't mind being disagreed with at all - it makes the discussion more interesting. It's mildly irritating when the poster is arrogant, rude, and combative, but I figure they're just revealing their true selves for all to see, which has nothing to do with me.

If I start feeling "beat up" I'll stop posting. By the way, feel free to ignore anything I post. I promise I won't mind a bit.

[British_Pharaoh]

It won't be long before Jensen Lewis or Herrmann re-join the club if Durbin can't right himself

[Dnthateonthepronk]

When you look at Durbin's stats he wasn't all that good as a pitcher for a great majority of his career. Sure he had a good year with Philly last year but last year's stats aren't going to help this year's team. I remember hearing Hammy say (today? yesterday? It was in this series) that the Indians are hoping that Durbin can pitch like he did for Philly...and that he just hasn't shown it yet. Hammy didn't sound too hopeful, either, that Durbin would be quality pitching anytime soon.

I agree. His spot will be given to somebody by August. Hopefully if we are still competing and Hagadone continues to not walk people it will be him. that 95 mph fastball from the left side( as long as he knows where it is going ) would look real good in our pen come playoff time.

[peeker643]

When you look at Durbin's stats he wasn't all that good as a pitcher for a great majority of his career. Sure he had a good year with Philly last year but last year's stats aren't going to help this year's team. I remember hearing Hammy say (today? yesterday? It was in this series) that the Indians are hoping that Durbin can pitch like he did for Philly...and that he just hasn't shown it yet. Hammy didn't sound too hopeful, either, that Durbin would be quality pitching anytime soon.

I agree. His spot will be given to somebody by August. Hopefully if we are still competing and Hagadone continues to not walk people it will be him. that 95 mph fastball from the left side( as long as he knows where it is going ) would look real good in our pen come playoff time.

It won't go that long IMO. Couple more weeks, middle of May at the latest. Especially if they are still playing well otherwise. I doubt they carry a guy through the summer who's not effective. Unless they can get him to agree he's 'hurt' so he can figure his game out in Columbus or Akron.

[peeker643]

I've seen every inning Durbin has pitched this year, for your information. Seven earned runs in eight innings. This is the first time I've said anything because I wanted to give him a chance.

8 innings was it then? That was his 'chance' that Prosecutor gave him? Gotcha. That should be enough to judge anyone.

Last year Durbin's ERA was 3.80, which is not particularly good for a National League reliever. The year before that it was 4.39. He did have one good year in 2008 with an ERA of 2.87, but that was the only time in his 10-year career that he was below 4.39. His career ERA is 5.08.

So it was 2.87 in '08 and 3.80 last year but '08 was the only year it was under 4.39? Maybe I'm not a numbers guy because I just don't understand how that's possible.


So if you want to characterize him as a guy who has proven he can get big league hitters out, go right ahead. Technically you are correct. He just never got them out all that consistently, except for one year. And from the games I've watched, he still doesn't. If you want to be President of his Fan Club, he probably needs one.

Yes. Since the guy has gotten major league hitters out and I prefer to give him more than 8 innings to see if he can again I'm the president of his fan club. Lick your wounds somewhere else. Easter Sunday is the wrong time for you to try and squeeze your way to martyrdom.

Funny, I don't feel beat up. I don't mind being disagreed with at all - it makes the discussion more interesting. It's mildly irritating when the poster is arrogant, rude, and combative, but I figure they're just revealing their true selves for all to see, which has nothing to do with me.

I think that's because you're blissfully unaware. Like Forrest Gump.

If I start feeling "beat up" I'll stop posting. By the way, feel free to ignore anything I post. I promise I won't mind a bit.

If I was afforded the opportunity to do that it would have been done a year ago Pros. But part of my gig is unfortunately to bear the burden of tools, humps and knobs on occasion. You, on the other hand, can hit that 'ignore' button at any moment. Save yourself aggravation.

[motherscratcher]

When you look at Durbin's stats he wasn't all that good as a pitcher for a great majority of his career. Sure he had a good year with Philly last year but last year's stats aren't going to help this year's team. I remember hearing Hammy say (today? yesterday? It was in this series) that the Indians are hoping that Durbin can pitch like he did for Philly...and that he just hasn't shown it yet. Hammy didn't sound too hopeful, either, that Durbin would be quality pitching anytime soon.

I agree. His spot will be given to somebody by August. Hopefully if we are still competing and Hagadone continues to not walk people it will be him. that 95 mph fastball from the left side( as long as he knows where it is going ) would look real good in our pen come playoff time.

I'd like to see Hagadone too, but they might go with Herrmann first because he's a righty.

The bullpen now is Raffy (L) and Sipp (L)
Smith (R), Germano (R), and Durbin (R)

I don't know if it's by design that they have 3 rightys and 2 leftys or if it just turned out that way because those were the best 5 relievers. I don't know how important that is to Antonetti and Acta. But I have a feeling that they might want to keep the same righty/lefty makeup.

Guestion then becomes, what has to happen to get Hagadone a shot if he keeps performing like he has so far?

[peeker643]

When you look at Durbin's stats he wasn't all that good as a pitcher for a great majority of his career. Sure he had a good year with Philly last year but last year's stats aren't going to help this year's team. I remember hearing Hammy say (today? yesterday? It was in this series) that the Indians are hoping that Durbin can pitch like he did for Philly...and that he just hasn't shown it yet. Hammy didn't sound too hopeful, either, that Durbin would be quality pitching anytime soon.

I agree. His spot will be given to somebody by August. Hopefully if we are still competing and Hagadone continues to not walk people it will be him. that 95 mph fastball from the left side( as long as he knows where it is going ) would look real good in our pen come playoff time.

I'd like to see Hagadone too, but they might go with Herrmann first because he's a righty.

The bullpen now is Raffy (L) and Sipp (L)
Smith (R), Germano (R), and Durbin (R)

I don't know if it's by design that they have 3 rightys and 2 leftys or if it just turned out that way because those were the best 5 relievers. I don't know how important that is to Antonetti and Acta. But I have a feeling that they might want to keep the same righty/lefty makeup.

Guestion then becomes, what has to happen to get Hagadone a shot if he keeps performing like he has so far?

Hagadone just needs to stay healthy and effective. They'll bring him up if that happens and someone is ineffective regardless of the fact he might replace a right hander in Durbin.

A couple people with the Indians in the press box were speculating that Hagadone would be here before the year ended as well. 98mph and left handed is hard to overlook if he stays healthy and dude isn't a baby any more either. He's 25 now and it might be time.

You're lefty-heavy kinda because you forgot Pestano.

[peeker643]

FYI on Hagadone:

DOB- 1/1/86
Drafted in 1st Round '07 by Red Sox

2011 in Akron

5G 10.2IP 6H 14K 1BB Whip 0.656 K/9 11.8

Those are ridiculous AA numbers and dude isn't long for Akron

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... gado001nic

By the way, Hagadone's been talked about quite a bit here in the last 7-10 days ( index.php?f=3&t=20174&p=418785&hilit=hagadone&rb_v=viewtopic#p418785 ).

Coincidentally Pluto talks about him today ;-)

[motherscratcher]

Shit, you're right. How did I forget Pasta Vinnie?

[Dnthateonthepronk]

Guestion then becomes, what has to happen to get Hagadone a shot if he keeps performing like he has so far?

I think all he has to do is just keep pitching like he is, get moved up to Triple A, and not stumble and then he should be up, If we are possibly in contention he could be up sooner if other options ahead of him falter.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

It won't go that long IMO. Couple more weeks, middle of May at the latest. Especially if they are still playing well otherwise. I doubt they carry a guy through the summer who's not effective. Unless they can get him to agree he's 'hurt' so he can figure his game out in Columbus or Akron.

I dont think Durbin will last that long either, My time frame had more to do with when Hagadone could get called up to take that spot from somebody.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

It is unfortunate that he couldnt stay as a starter but if he and Perez work out thats a pretty good 8,9 inning Combo.

[Prosecutor]

I don't think they will move Hagadone straight from AA to the majors and skip AAA entirely based on 10 innings of success in Akron. This organization has a history of moving prospects up very deliberately and not skipping levels. I suspect that policy goes back to the Brandon Phillips debacle.

Last year Frank Herrmann pitched something like 28 innings at Columbus and gave up one earned run. They brought him up and he was so-so. Pestano and Tomlin, on the other hand, seem to be making the transition to the bigs with no problems. I think they want to see Hagadone succeed at AAA before they bring him up.

At the moment Durbin isn't hurting the team because the starting pitching has been so good that the bullpen has not been taxed and they have the luxury of using Durbin only in garbage time. They also gave him a million bucks and it would be embarassing to give up on him so soon. They can afford to give him some more chances to find his form, such as it was, from last year. If they do decide to dump him at some point, I think they'll bring up Putnam or even Huff or Jensen Lewis before reaching down to AA for Hagadone.

[leadpipe]

I don't think they will move Hagadone straight from AA to the majors and skip AAA entirely based on 10 innings of success in Akron. This organization has a history of moving prospects up very deliberately and not skipping levels. I suspect that policy goes back to the Brandon Phillips debacle.

Last year Frank Herrmann pitched something like 28 innings at Columbus and gave up one earned run. They brought him up and he was so-so. Pestano and Tomlin, on the other hand, seem to be making the transition to the bigs with no problems. I think they want to see Hagadone succeed at AAA before they bring him up.

At the moment Durbin isn't hurting the team because the starting pitching has been so good that the bullpen has not been taxed and they have the luxury of using Durbin only in garbage time. They also gave him a million bucks and it would be embarassing to give up on him so soon. They can afford to give him some more chances to find his form, such as it was, from last year. If they do decide to dump him at some point, I think they'll bring up Putnam or even Huff or Jensen Lewis before reaching down to AA for Hagadone.

Hermann, Pestano and Tomlin.

Hagadone.

Different level of prospect. Guys with Hagadone's make-up/talent routinely skip AAA. Best case scenario for the organization. And if you look at "Stars" in this game, you don't see many with a lengthy AAA resume.

The difference between being 25 and chuckin' it 98, and being 27 and chuckin' it 98 is....nothing. And save the chance they can "ruin" the guy at 25. If he's too fragile at 25, he'll be too fragile at 30.

Look, I'm not demanding they do something now, just stating that 1. Nick Hagadone should not and will not be treated like Frank Hermann and 2. During the course of this season NUMEROUS times there will be a spot for a guy that can get people out - because of injury or the fact others are failing to do so.

And to be quite frank, unless you're a guy that thinks Carmona will ever be consistent, the day Nick Hagadone walks on this staff he'll have the highest ceiling of anyone on that staff - by a pretty wide margin. Bottom line, if Hagadone is healthy in 5 years and has maintained velocity you're going to have a real nice player on your hands. If (insert current Tribe starter here) is healthy and has his velocity/stuff in 5 years you have.....umm, you're probably not sure what you have.

I'm not in Hagadone's fan club, but I'm aware of the what it takes for pitchers to be good for a long time, and the Tribe in recent years hasn't had many guys come with qualities that fit that bill too well. Though they're necessary, I'm not all that interested anyomore in guys with pedestrian stuff that have a little success when they go thru the league for the first time, and than get lambasted later. "guile" only gets you so far. The GOOD pitchers have "Guile" and "Stuff." If you got guile and no stuff, in a few years (and several hard hit balls later) you're still going to have only guile. It's only the guys that have stuff that are able to aquire both. That's why they last, that's why they get more outs.

Good Christ, if you reach down for David Huff over Hagadone at this point, it'll just prove how f'd up this game really is, cause there ain't a guy on God's green earth who isn't a total moron, that could clearly see what the far superior choice is.

[GodHatesClevelandSport]

Shapiro and Co.'s free-agent bullpen signings have been very, very bad historically.

It's the guys they've traded for or drafted who turn out to be the good ones.

Signings: Durbin, Wood, Herges, Veras, Chulk, Kobayashi, Rincon, Julio, Fultz, Borowski, Graves, Sauerbeck, Rhodes, Jimenez.

Meanwhile, they developed or traded for guys like Betancourt (free-agent signing, yes, but through the minors), Perez, Sipp, Chris Perez, Wickman, Riske, Lewis, Smith, Pestano.

The way Herrmann's going, Jensen Lewis will be replacing him posthaste.

[Prosecutor]

I don't disagree, Pipe, I'm just saying from what I've observed the Tribe's philosophy is to not move prospects up too fast, no matter how high their upside. In Hagadone's case they may make an exception considering his age. Keep in mind that he lost a year to TJ surgery so he doesn't have as many developmental years as most 25-year-olds.

I seem to remember Antonetti being quoted in the last year as saying they didn't want to bring a prospect to Cleveland until they were sure he would stick. Last year they gave Brantley and LaPorta starting jobs and had to send both of them down. I think he was talking about Chisenhall, but their philosophy is not to bring up prospects until they're pretty sure they'll stick. I doubt they're at that point with Hagadone yet.

Jensen Lewis has been pitching well in Columbus and had a 2.97 ERA in Cleveland last year. I think they'll promote him or Putnam ahead of Hagadone, for the same reason they gave Chad Durbin a million dollars this spring.