Chad Durbin?

[CURS1004]

I know you're trying to sound tough, trying to hide your homosexuality but referring to my balls is a dead give away.

Take a deep breath, have a glass of red wine and take a chill pill peeky

By the way •Douchebag (is a 2010 independent film directed by Drake Doremus)

Remember "sticks and stones"

you will always be a disambiguation to me.

Lets have a drink someday and put these bad feeling behind us

[cozmeesah]

[peeker643]

I know you're trying to sound tough, trying to hide your homosexuality but referring to my balls is a dead give away.

I thought the french was the giveaway. Hmm...

Take a deep breath, have a glass of red wine and take a chill pill peeky

By the way •Douchebag (is a 2010 independent film directed by Drake Doremus)

Biographical?

Remember "sticks and stones"

Spinal Tap's 'Cups and Cakes' rings a bell.

you will always be a disambiguation to me.

As long as I'm remembered.

Lets have a drink someday and put these bad feeling behind us

Way ahead of ya

[Prosecutor]

The only conclusion I can come to is that management thinks at least one of them isn't quite there and need to be finished off.

Maybe management figures that Chaz Durbin is better than the three middle aged 4a guys and that a team that has as much experience as the Indians do in evaluating and promoting young pitching talent knows more about it than we do.

And because that 7th and 8th inning bridge to Perez ain't where they want to throw these future Koufaxes right away.

I'm just guessing with that.

Maybe collectively we do know more than they do. If we do it's mostly because of motherscratcher.

Organizational filler Pros. Placeholders at AAA between the guys before them and the guys after them.

People get bent over the most ridiculous shit. Then they create justification for it.

Again, I'm pretty comfortable with their history of promoting young pitchers.

Got it. Management knows more about baseball players than we do, so ours is not to question why. When the Indians sign a Grudzielanek, a Branyan, a Dellucci, a Jason Johnson or Jason Micaels, a Nix, Kobayashi, or Durbin, our job is to nod approvingly and applaud. So here goes...

The Indians just signed Chad Durbin! Yaaaaayyyyy!!!!!

I don't know who they're cutting to make room for him (Duncan, Crowe?) or which young(er) pitcher is going back to AAA for more "seasoning". But it doesn't matter, does it, because this management team has such a steller history of handling young pitchers like Mark Guthrie that there's no need to worry. Just sit back and enjoy watching genius at work.

[peeker643]

I don't know who they're cutting to make room for him (Duncan, Crowe?) or which young(er) pitcher is going back to AAA for more "seasoning". But it doesn't matter, does it, because this management team has such a steller history of handling young pitchers like Mark Guthrie that there's no need to worry. Just sit back and enjoy watching genius at work.

They know his name is Jeremy Guthrie genius.



That's priceless and perfect dude.

Nice.

But keep talking. Please. I can't ask for anything more to prove a point than you responding with the wrong names and not addressing the multitude of young pitchers they've already brought up.

If and when Durbin or someone falls they'll get their chance and I'll be happy for them and hope they make the most of it. In the meantime you and Mr. Pestano should PM and commiserate.

I am with ya though. It still hurts to lose Guthrie and his 10 games under .500, 4+ ERA with the Birds.

[Prosecutor]

Mark, Jeremy, Woodie, Arlo, it doesn't matter. I was too lazy to look up the dude's first name. Big Effin Deal. Is that all you got?

I'm sure they thought it through and have a good reason for signing Billy Durbin, even if they don't intend to explain their reasoning to the Great Unwashed. I hope he does well. If they think Chuck Pestano or Igor Herrmann needs more time in AAA, fine. Like I said in my first post, I'm not slitting my wrists over it.

It just seems like some of these guys are ready for a shot at the bigs based on their age and AAA performance, so some of us, including Tony, don't understand why we're signing a 33-year-old mediocre right-handed reliever. We've seen enough of guys like Kobayashi and Aquino. But hey, the Tribe management has a great track record, so let's just shut up and cheer them on, right?

[peeker643]

Mark, Jeremy, Woodie, Arlo, it doesn't matter. I was too lazy to look up the dude's first name. Big Effin Deal. Is that all you got?

Yeah- you throwing a hissy fit without knowing who or what you're talking about, specifically a guy's name and underwhelming numbers with the O's is all I got. That and the 20 names (correct names too) I gave you of guys who have been brought up at a young age. Sorry there's not more than that.


We've seen enough of guys like Kobayashi and Aquino. But hey, the Tribe management has a great track record, so let's just shut up and cheer them on, right?

I didn't say cheer them on. I said take a look at that track record and have a basic understanding that this team is really proactive in giving young pitchers a chance. I gave you 764 names and you give me the wrong name and a bad example at that. Not to mention I clearly said when someone slips or falls those guys will get their opportunity and we'll all be pulling for them.

[Prosecutor]

Mark, Jeremy, Woodie, Arlo, it doesn't matter. I was too lazy to look up the dude's first name. Big Effin Deal. Is that all you got?

Yeah- you throwing a hissy fit without knowing who or what you're talking about, specifically a guy's name and underwhelming numbers with the O's is all I got. That and the 20 names (correct names too) I gave you of guys who have been brought up at a young age. Sorry there's not more than that.

No hissy fit, I just pointed out that getting the first name wrong has nothing to do with anything. It certainly doesn't mean I don't know who I'm talking about. You sure did. The Orioles pitcher who was a former Indians first round pick. We both knew who I was talking about. You just jumped all over a minor mistake because that's what you do when you're stumped for a real response.

You didn't give 20 names or 764 either but I'm ignoring that gross exaggeration because I don't quibble over meaningless trivialities. On second thought, the signing of Jim Durbin is probably a meaningless triviality in the long run, so maybe I do. Time to cut out.

We've seen enough of guys like Kobayashi and Aquino. But hey, the Tribe management has a great track record, so let's just shut up and cheer them on, right?

I didn't say cheer them on. I said take a look at that track record and have a basic understanding that this team is really proactive in giving young pitchers a chance. I gave you 764 names and you give me the wrong name and a bad example at that. Not to mention I clearly said when someone slips or falls those guys will get their opportunity and we'll all be pulling for them.

Yes we will, but why do we have to wait for a guy we spent $800K on to slip and fall?

Why is a team that is financially challenged spend over $1 million (assuming Mike Durbin makes some of those incentives) for a 33-year-old, mediocre right-handed reliever who was still on the street in late Feb? Is there anything to be gained by sending Pee Wee Herrman or Pestano or Germano back to AAA when they've already been more than successful at that level and they're a lot cheaper? I'm not talking about having some hot prospect skip AAA to see what he's got.

I just want a writer who covers the Tribe to ask management what the hell they are thinking, but apparently nobody is interested in doing that. Why is a cash-strapped team that won 65 games last year and added no impact players in the off-season suddenly going after Phil Durbin?

[peeker643]

It's just sloppy Poppy.

Your complaints followed by using the wrong name as your one shining example amuse me and others.

That's the way it is. You don't have to be uptight about it. It was funny.

I'm still chuckling.

Last time: The Indians feel Durbin makes them better and they have a roster full(and a recent history full) of names that support the argument they don't hold kids that can pitch back because of their age.

There's really just no way to dispute either of those contentions unless you've got a hard on for the front office or are Vinny Pestano's dad. I understand the second one but it doesn't alter the situation.

[motherscratcher]

You didn't give 20 names or 764 either but I'm ignoring that gross exaggeration because I don't quibble over meaningless trivialities.

Except for that one time when I mentioned it, I'm completely ignoring that gross exaggeration. Starting...right...NOW! I will definitely not mention the fact that Peeker exaggerated when he said 20 or 764 names.

Wait. Dammit! Starting now. I'm not a quibbler, so I won't be mentioning Peeker's exaggeration of 20 or 764 names.

Shit...

[redneckofsc]

Brandon Phillips
Jeremy Guthrie
Milton Bradley
Luke Scott
Ryan Ludwick
Wily Tavarez

[Prosecutor]

Last time: The Indians feel Durbin makes them better...

Thank you, Peeker. That was...very helpful.

I think I got it. The Indians know more than we do. They feel Durbin makes them better. When he screws up they'll give somebody else a chance. Move along, nothing to talk about here.

I'll try one last time to see if somebody else can shed any light on this.

1. Frank Herrmann, 2010, Cleveland Indians. Minor league numbers not included.

Herrmann's BAA/OPS in 2010 against right-handed hitters: .241/.629
Against lefties: .310/.920

Same splits for Durbin: .195/.604 (right-handers); .324/.936 (lefties).

I'm not seeing much difference between these two pitchers, except that Herrmann is seven years younger, a lot cheaper, and throws 97 mph, which means he probably has a bigger upside, especially since he only has two years experience as a relief pitcher.

Herrmann is not exactly a "kid". He's 26 and pitched 44 innings in the majors last year. Why would the Tribe prefer Durbin to Herrmann, especially considering the extra money involved?

2. Justin Germano, 2010 Cleveland Indians. No minor league stats.

Against right-handers: .200/.716. Against lefties: .213/.606. Overall: .206 BAA. Unlike Durbin and Herrmann, Germano was effective against both righties and lefties. He's no kid; 28 years old with prior ML experience as a member of the Padres starting rotation for a couple of years.

Going into his last appearance of the season Germano had a 2.16 ERA. He got beat up in his last game and ended up at 3.31, very similar to Durbin's ERA without the advantage of pitching in the National League. Did I mention he's five years younger and also cheaper? And unlike Durbin you can bring him in even if three lefties are due up?

Can anyone explain why Durbin would be a better choice than a guy who's younger, cheaper, and can get both righties and lefties out?

3. Vinnie Pestano.

Unlike Germano, Pestano has little major league experience, so he's a projection. However, in 43 games at Columbus last year his ERA was 1.55. That's not a typo, it was 1.55. He was brought up to Cleveland for a cup of coffee and struck out 8 major league hitters in 5 innings. Small sample size to be sure, but enough to show he can miss some bats up here. He's no kid either at age 26.

I'm assuming the addition of Durbin means one of these guys won't make the team unless Durbin tanks, which there's no evidence that he'll do. Obviously the Indians think Durbin is better than at least one of these guys right now, but looking long term, why would you pay Durbin over a half million dollars more than what these guys will get?

I don't understand this move. I'm just wondering if anyone has any thoughts beyond, "They have more information and they know what they're doing."

[peeker643]

Last time: The Indians feel Durbin makes them better...

Thank you, Peeker. That was...very helpful.

I think I got it. The Indians know more than we do. They feel Durbin makes them better. When he screws up they'll give somebody else a chance. Move along, nothing to talk about here.

I'll try one last time to see if somebody else can shed any light on this.

1. Frank Herrmann, 2010, Cleveland Indians. Minor league numbers not included.

Herrmann's BAA/OPS in 2010 against right-handed hitters: .241/.629
Against lefties: .310/.920

Same splits for Durbin: .195/.604 (right-handers); .324/.936 (lefties).

I'm not seeing much difference between these two pitchers, except that Herrmann is seven years younger, a lot cheaper, and throws 97 mph, which means he probably has a bigger upside, especially since he only has two years experience as a relief pitcher.

Herrmann is not exactly a "kid". He's 26 and pitched 44 innings in the majors last year. Why would the Tribe prefer Durbin to Herrmann, especially considering the extra money involved?

2. Justin Germano, 2010 Cleveland Indians. No minor league stats.

Against right-handers: .200/.716. Against lefties: .213/.606. Overall: .206 BAA. Unlike Durbin and Herrmann, Germano was effective against both righties and lefties. He's no kid; 28 years old with prior ML experience as a member of the Padres starting rotation for a couple of years.

Going into his last appearance of the season Germano had a 2.16 ERA. He got beat up in his last game and ended up at 3.31, very similar to Durbin's ERA without the advantage of pitching in the National League. Did I mention he's five years younger and also cheaper? And unlike Durbin you can bring him in even if three lefties are due up?

Can anyone explain why Durbin would be a better choice than a guy who's younger, cheaper, and can get both righties and lefties out?

3. Vinnie Pestano.

Unlike Germano, Pestano has little major league experience, so he's a projection. However, in 43 games at Columbus last year his ERA was 1.55. That's not a typo, it was 1.55. He was brought up to Cleveland for a cup of coffee and struck out 8 major league hitters in 5 innings. Small sample size to be sure, but enough to show he can miss some bats up here. He's no kid either at age 26.

I'm assuming the addition of Durbin means one of these guys won't make the team unless Durbin tanks, which there's no evidence that he'll do. Obviously the Indians think Durbin is better than at least one of these guys right now, but looking long term, why would you pay Durbin over a half million dollars more than what these guys will get?

I don't understand this move. I'm just wondering if anyone has any thoughts beyond, "They have more information and they know what they're doing."

They think he's a better major league option and they have a history of promoting young pitchers from within.

If you can't figure out what that means then by all means keep looking at the numbers.

[paulcousineau]

Germano's off the 40-man, so he was a longshot to make the team as it is. With Durbin signing, there is still one spot open in the bullpen, which either Herrmann or Pestano (among others) can fill if they earn that chance in Goodyear. Any of these guys are about $350K "cheaper" than Durbin, so that's not really all that relevant.

What is relevant is that, between them, Herrmann and Pestano have 49 combined MLB innings pitched entering their age 27 (Herrmnann) and age 26 (Pestano) seasons. Durbin has thrown more than that in each of the last three seasons for an NL contender, a period in which he's posted a 3.62 ERA, an ERA similar to those posted by the Twins' Jesse Crain and Matt Guerrier (who both got 3-year deals this off-season) over the same time period.

Will Durbin flame out, displaying why he's still available at this point?
Maybe, but he's getting paid less than Joe Smith for the Indians to spend a couple of months to find out. At that point, you can call up whichever arm didn't make the team out of Goodyear, their growth "stunted" by a solid couple of months when they'd be used sparingly in Cleveland instead of regularly in Columbus.

It's not a matter of "trust the Indians, they know what they're doing", it's a matter of knowing that bullpens are fickle beasts and expecting success from any reliever (much less those with such limited MLB experience) is a dangerous line to toe, particularly for a young team that needs to build momentum.

Maybe Durbin is terrible, but it costs the Indians less than it did for them to kick the tires on Jamey Wright last year, and "blocks" one reliever, if you're saying Herrmann and Pestano are the two guys who Durbin is usurping. On the flip side, maybe Durbin can provide some stability and they can flip him in July after some of the young arms have sorted themselves out in Columbus, with a number of them CERTAIN to come up at some point because of injuries and ineffectiveness that probably won't even include Durbin.

[peeker643]

Germano's off the 40-man, so he was a longshot to make the team as it is. With Durbin signing, there is still one spot open in the bullpen, which either Herrmann or Pestano (among others) can fill if they earn that chance in Goodyear. Any of these guys are about $350K "cheaper" than Durbin, so that's not really all that relevant.

What is relevant is that, between them, Herrmann and Pestano have 49 combined MLB innings pitched entering their age 27 (Herrmnann) and age 26 (Pestano) seasons. Durbin has thrown more than that in each of the last three seasons for an NL contender, a period in which he's posted a 3.62 ERA, an ERA similar to those posted by the Twins' Jesse Crain and Matt Guerrier (who both got 3-year deals this off-season) over the same time period.

Will Durbin flame out, displaying why he's still available at this point?
Maybe, but he's getting paid less than Joe Smith for the Indians to spend a couple of months to find out. At that point, you can call up whichever arm didn't make the team out of Goodyear, their growth "stunted" by a solid couple of months when they'd be used sparingly in Cleveland instead of regularly in Columbus.

It's not a matter of "trust the Indians, they know what they're doing", it's a matter of knowing that bullpens are fickle beasts and expecting success from any reliever (much less those with such limited MLB experience) is a dangerous line to toe, particularly for a young team that needs to build momentum.

Maybe Durbin is terrible, but it costs the Indians less than it did for them to kick the tires on Jamey Wright last year, and "blocks" one reliever, if you're saying Herrmann and Pestano are the two guys who Durbin is usurping. On the flip side, maybe Durbin can provide some stability and they can flip him in July after some of the young arms have sorted themselves out in Columbus, with a number of them CERTAIN to come up at some point because of injuries and ineffectiveness that probably won't even include Durbin.

Not enough stats in this post.

But it's not me responding so I'm sure Pros will suddenly understand.

[redneckofsc]

Well Luke Scott was in the top 10 in OPS last year.

[Jumbo]

There's something else to keep in mind. If Durbin has a solid season, and the Indians improve (say, win something on the order of 75 games)...then why not keep him around for next year, too? I haven't seen anything indicating that the Indians contract has an option included, but if Durbin pitches well and it looks like they could use a veteran in the pen for a potential contending season, then by all means keep him around.

The obvious counter is that you could put in Herrmann or whoever and they might pitch well, and you've definitely got them for next year, too. But with bullpens so inconsistent, the whoevers are going to get their shot anyway, and to add any modicum of consistency to a bullpen is a plus for me. As I referred to earlier in this thread, the Indians picked up Bobby Howry before a non-contending season, when he wouldn't have made a real difference between contending and not, and they kept him around long enough for him to actually make such a difference.

Again, for me, this is qualitatively different then adding a veteran position player. There's only so many at-bats to go around. But when you have a seven-man bullpen, there's going to be enough injuries and meltdowns to ensure plenty of opportunities.

IOW, what Cousineau said better than me.

[peeker643]

Well Luke Scott was in the top 10 in OPS last year.

I'm ignoring you and your spring training nonsense. It's weak. You work hard on it and get it ready for the start of the season and I'll be back to being amused.

You also lied when you said you were coming up for a game last season and, I'm not gonna lie, that still stings me.

[motherscratcher]

Germano's off the 40-man, so he was a longshot to make the team as it is. With Durbin signing, there is still one spot open in the bullpen, which either Herrmann or Pestano (among others) can fill if they earn that chance in Goodyear. Any of these guys are about $350K "cheaper" than Durbin, so that's not really all that relevant.

What is relevant is that, between them, Herrmann and Pestano have 49 combined MLB innings pitched entering their age 27 (Herrmnann) and age 26 (Pestano) seasons. Durbin has thrown more than that in each of the last three seasons for an NL contender, a period in which he's posted a 3.62 ERA, an ERA similar to those posted by the Twins' Jesse Crain and Matt Guerrier (who both got 3-year deals this off-season) over the same time period.

Will Durbin flame out, displaying why he's still available at this point?
Maybe, but he's getting paid less than Joe Smith for the Indians to spend a couple of months to find out. At that point, you can call up whichever arm didn't make the team out of Goodyear, their growth "stunted" by a solid couple of months when they'd be used sparingly in Cleveland instead of regularly in Columbus.

It's not a matter of "trust the Indians, they know what they're doing", it's a matter of knowing that bullpens are fickle beasts and expecting success from any reliever (much less those with such limited MLB experience) is a dangerous line to toe, particularly for a young team that needs to build momentum.

Maybe Durbin is terrible, but it costs the Indians less than it did for them to kick the tires on Jamey Wright last year, and "blocks" one reliever, if you're saying Herrmann and Pestano are the two guys who Durbin is usurping. On the flip side, maybe Durbin can provide some stability and they can flip him in July after some of the young arms have sorted themselves out in Columbus, with a number of them CERTAIN to come up at some point because of injuries and ineffectiveness that probably won't even include Durbin.

My initial reaction to the Durbin signing was "why do we need him?"

This, makes a whole hell of a lot of sense.

[Prosecutor]

Germano's off the 40-man, so he was a longshot to make the team as it is. With Durbin signing, there is still one spot open in the bullpen, which either Herrmann or Pestano (among others) can fill if they earn that chance in Goodyear. Any of these guys are about $350K "cheaper" than Durbin, so that's not really all that relevant.

What is relevant is that, between them, Herrmann and Pestano have 49 combined MLB innings pitched entering their age 27 (Herrmnann) and age 26 (Pestano) seasons. Durbin has thrown more than that in each of the last three seasons for an NL contender, a period in which he's posted a 3.62 ERA, an ERA similar to those posted by the Twins' Jesse Crain and Matt Guerrier (who both got 3-year deals this off-season) over the same time period.

Will Durbin flame out, displaying why he's still available at this point?
Maybe, but he's getting paid less than Joe Smith for the Indians to spend a couple of months to find out. At that point, you can call up whichever arm didn't make the team out of Goodyear, their growth "stunted" by a solid couple of months when they'd be used sparingly in Cleveland instead of regularly in Columbus.

It's not a matter of "trust the Indians, they know what they're doing", it's a matter of knowing that bullpens are fickle beasts and expecting success from any reliever (much less those with such limited MLB experience) is a dangerous line to toe, particularly for a young team that needs to build momentum.

Maybe Durbin is terrible, but it costs the Indians less than it did for them to kick the tires on Jamey Wright last year, and "blocks" one reliever, if you're saying Herrmann and Pestano are the two guys who Durbin is usurping. On the flip side, maybe Durbin can provide some stability and they can flip him in July after some of the young arms have sorted themselves out in Columbus, with a number of them CERTAIN to come up at some point because of injuries and ineffectiveness that probably won't even include Durbin.

Thanks for taking the time to shed some light on this, Paul. Much appreciated.

I understand your point that Durbin can provide "some stability." I just prefer less stability if the price is blocking a younger player with a bigger upside, especially coming off a 65-win season. I'm not interested in "kicking the tires" of 33-year-old relief pitchers. Been there, done that.

Any idea why Germano is a "long shot"? His numbers were much better than Durbin last year although he pitched half as many innings because he had to prove himself at Columbus before they would give him a shot.

I think there's an interesting parallel between these pitchers. Durbin was a starter his entire career until age 29. After starting 16 games for the Royals at age 22 he was up and down between the majors and minors for seven years. At age 29 he was converted to a full-time reliever and has stuck in the majors ever since.

Germano and Herrmann were both starters for years before being converted to relievers when it became obvious they didn't have the stuff to be successful staters in the majors. Germano is 28 so he seems to be following the Durbin path. Same with Herrmann only he switched a few years earlier.

Last year Durbin's ERA was 3.80 with a WHIP of 1.31. The year before it was 4.29 and 1.48. These are National League numbers, where the pitchers have the advantage of not facing a DH, although it's not as much for relievers because they frequently face pinch hitters for the pitcher. I don't expect Durbin to "flame out", but I'll be surprised if his ERA for Cleveland is under 4.00 based on his last two seasons and switching leagues. And what does a rebuilding team need with a 33-year-old guy with no upside who's numbers last year were virtually identical to Frank Herrmann's?

You said we have a "young team that needs to build momentum". Maybe Durbin can recapture his form of three years ago when he had a 2.87 ERA and we can flip him for a prospect. Otherwise I don't see how this helps the Tribe. It also doesn't hurt because guys like Herrmann and Pestano can continue their development in AAA (although looking at their ridiculous AAA numbers last year it's obvious they have nothing left to prove at that level).

The recent history of the Indians proves that relievers can go from dominant to toast in one year (i.e, Wickman, Raffie Perez) or even within a season (Sipp, Jensen Lewis). So if the idea is to stockpile as many arms as possible in the expectation that there will be injuries and flame outs, I guess the Durbin signing makes sense.

[paulcousineau]

Not sure on Germano as he did pitch well down the stretch, but was taken off of the 40-man and cleared waivers. It would be great if they could turn Germano into an asset, but he is in camp as a non-roster invite, so they can put him in Columbus and have him be an option like the rest of those guys.

More arms are never a bad thing for a bullpen.

[peeker643]

Not sure on Germano as he did pitch well down the stretch, but was taken off of the 40-man and cleared waivers. It would be great if they could turn Germano into an asset, but he is in camp as a non-roster invite, so they can put him in Columbus and have him be an option like the rest of those guys.

More arms are never a bad thing for a bullpen.

Do everyone a favor and put your response above into the library. That will save you from havin to type it all again next spring. And you would have to do so because it's clear that some posters don't retain any type of understanding from season to season.

You say Germano cleared waivers huh? Every team passed on the opportunity to snap him up? Hmm...weird that happens when every team in baseball is always desperate for pitching.

Padres Blogger/Bleacher Report/FanSided Nathaniel Stoltz (too numbers based for me but he writes well and is knowledgeable)

Durbin, 33, was an integral part of Philadelphia’s bullpen last year, but still had trouble finding a major league offer with a contending team. Rather than accept a minor league deal, he joined the rebuilding Indians, and should immediately upgrade a bullpen that ranked 26th in FIP last year.

In any case, we’re talking about a guy who’s posted a sub-4.00 FIP in two of the past three seasons, has shown he’s fairly durable, and is young enough that he’s not a likely decline candidate. Moving to the AL will hurt him a bit, perhaps, but the NL East is tough, and Citizens Bank Park is no treat, either. As long as he can throw enough strikes to get by (which was a problem in 2009), he should be an asset, and there’s little doubt he’s an improvement on guys like Frank Herrmann and Justin Germano.

The deal does have a max value of $1.8 million, with incentives, but that’s about what Durbin was worth last year, so if he simply equals his 2010 performance, the Indians will have gotten their money’s worth no matter how much he winds up making. When one considers the fact that Durbin may be replacing a pitcher with a negative WAR figure, that makes it an even better decision. Furthermore, sometimes these relievers can be solid trade chips, so once some of Cleveland’s young relief talent is ready to push the veteran aside, they can flip him for a semi-interesting prospect or two (more, perhaps, if he gets off to a hot start, which is certainly possible).

It’s a solid move for the Indians.

[pup]

Not sure on Germano as he did pitch well down the stretch, but was taken off of the 40-man and cleared waivers. It would be great if they could turn Germano into an asset, but he is in camp as a non-roster invite, so they can put him in Columbus and have him be an option like the rest of those guys.

More arms are never a bad thing for a bullpen.

Do everyone a favor and put your response above into the library. That will save you from havin to type it all again next spring. And you would have to do so because it's clear that some posters don't retain any type of understanding from season to season.

You say Germano cleared waivers huh? Every team passed on the opportunity to snap him up? Hmm...weird that happens when every team in baseball is always desperate for pitching.

As opposed to Durbin, who was available in the same market? With the experience of pitching the 7th inning for a contender. Weird is right.

[peeker643]

Durbin took the best offer Pup. You can dig in and tell me who else may have offered and for what.

Or you can look to throw more pretzel logic crap at the board and see if anything sticks.

Germano was available for a ride back from the airport and, at the very most and more likely less, the league minimum. Yet no one jumped all over that talented shit and he wound up back here. Why? Everyone is dumber than us?

It's gonna be great when Durbin's first six appearances are good and then he gives up a three run homer to lose a game. Then we can wonder why the talented 29 yr old Justin Germano ain't out there.

Even better if he gives up the dead Opening Day and then is fine for 6 games afterward.

This forum never disappoints.

Not sure on Germano as he did pitch well down the stretch, but was taken off of the 40-man and cleared waivers. It would be great if they could turn Germano into an asset, but he is in camp as a non-roster invite, so they can put him in Columbus and have him be an option like the rest of those guys.

More arms are never a bad thing for a bullpen.

Do everyone a favor and put your response above into the library. That will save you from havin to type it all again next spring. And you would have to do so because it's clear that some posters don't retain any type of understanding from season to season.

You say Germano cleared waivers huh? Every team passed on the opportunity to snap him up? Hmm...weird that happens when every team in baseball is always desperate for pitching.

As opposed to Durbin, who was available in the same market? With the experience of pitching the 7th inning for a contender. Weird is right.

[gotribe31]

I still don't understand the level of outrage over the signing of a low-cost, effective relief pitcher. Some of the same people that cry about how cheap the Indians are and never make any moves now complain that they are spending "too much" ($800k-1.8 mil) on a guy because he will block cheaper options in the minors.

Germano doesn't do a whole lot for me. I like Pestano and Judy quite a bit, but Pestano has a long medical report and last year was the first season he showed mid-90's velocity with any sort of consitency. Judy has yet to pitch in the major leagues, and while I hope and think he can be effective, we all though Ferd Cabrera, Eddie Mujica, Jason Davis, Jess Todd, Jon Meloan, Matt Miller, Andrew Brown, and Cliff Bartosh were going to be effective at one point. Both Judy and Pestano still have a shot to make the team out of spring training. Even if they don't, I bet they both pitch in Cleveland in 2011.

Bullpens are volatile. Having more options at a reasonable cost is good. If Durbin sucks, he will be easy to cut considering his salary and age. Then we plug in one of the internal options and go from there.

[peeker643]

Put this one in the library for next February as well please.

Thanks

I still don't understand the level of outrage over the signing of a low-cost, effective relief pitcher. Some of the same people that cry about how cheap the Indians are and never make any moves now complain that they are spending "too much" ($800k-1.8 mil) on a guy because he will block cheaper options in the minors.

Germano doesn't do a whole lot for me. I like Pestano and Judy quite a bit, but Pestano has a long medical report and last year was the first season he showed mid-90's velocity with any sort of consitency. Judy has yet to pitch in the major leagues, and while I hope and think he can be effective, we all though Ferd Cabrera, Eddie Mujica, Jason Davis, Jess Todd, Jon Meloan, Matt Miller, Andrew Brown, and Cliff Bartosh were going to be effective at one point. Both Judy and Pestano still have a shot to make the team out of spring training. Even if they don't, I bet they both pitch in Cleveland in 2011.

Bullpens are volatile. Having more options at a reasonable cost is good. If Durbin sucks, he will be easy to cut considering his salary and age. Then we plug in one of the internal options and go from there.

[pup]

So we stole Chad Durbin in a heated bid where he got exactly one Major League contract offer, which he signed. Days after saying he wanted to sign with a contender.

So are we smart for signing Durbin or is everyone else dumb. And why does that logic not apply the same to Germano (who I could care less about but he is the relevant player to discussion)?

Throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks over making quality decisions.

[peeker643]

Let me know where you found that Durbin only got one major league offer please, then we can further discuss.

If you're going by what I gave you then perhaps I see the issue: you're not comprehending what you're provided. What I posted said the following:

Durbin, 33, was an integral part of Philadelphia’s bullpen last year, but still had trouble finding a major league offer with a contending team. Rather than accept a minor league deal, he joined the rebuilding Indians, and should immediately upgrade a bullpen that ranked 26th in FIP last year.

Tell me where it says he got no other major league offers from "non-contending teams".

Why didn't he go back to Philly or another contender? I don't know. Maybe Philly spent enough on Cliff Lee, maybe jobs are hard to find, maybe other teams offered less in incentives.

Then let's discuss the offers Justin Germano received and spurned in order to re-sign with the team that had just cut him.

Plenty of stuff to be upset about in regard to the Tribe. You're choosing this? Well, at least the people who agree with you are solid.

And absolutely- signing a guy with a proven recent track record is clearly dumber than throwing three middle aged minor leaguers on the mound. That's literall throwing it on the mound and seeing what (if anything) sticks.

Your way is much more planful.

So we stole Chad Durbin in a heated bid where he got exactly one Major League contract offer, which he signed. Days after saying he wanted to sign with a contender.

So are we smart for signing Durbin or is everyone else dumb. And why does that logic not apply the same to Germano (who I could care less about but he is the relevant player to discussion)?

Throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks over making quality decisions.

[redneckofsc]

Well Luke Scott was in the top 10 in OPS last year.

I'm ignoring you and your spring training nonsense. It's weak. You work hard on it and get it ready for the start of the season and I'll be back to being amused.

You also lied when you said you were coming up for a game last season and, I'm not gonna lie, that still stings me.

My apologies...I just couldnt get motivated to drive 600 miles (one way) to watch Chris Gimenez, Sloth, Luis Valbuena, David Huff and Jamey Wright play. Plus, trading Russell BRanyan didnt help.

Hopefully I can get motivated to come this year.

[peeker643]

Well Luke Scott was in the top 10 in OPS last year.

I'm ignoring you and your spring training nonsense. It's weak. You work hard on it and get it ready for the start of the season and I'll be back to being amused.

You also lied when you said you were coming up for a game last season and, I'm not gonna lie, that still stings me.

My apologies...I just couldnt get motivated to drive 600 miles (one way) to watch Chris Gimenez, Sloth, Luis Valbuena, David Huff and Jamey Wright play. Plus, trading Russell BRanyan didnt help.

Hopefully I can get motivated to come this year.

Right. Whatever. Why don't you pick a nice homestand in 1995, '97 or 2007 to come up for you bandwagon bastard.

[redneckofsc]

If I had a time machine, I wouldnt go back to 95, 97 or 2007...I would pick a game when Jason Davis or Jeremy Guthrie of pitching.

[peeker643]

If I had a time machine, I wouldnt go back to 95, 97 or 2007...I would pick a game when Jason Davis or Jeremy Guthrie of pitching.

Because you'd only wanna see three or four innings or because you like watching baseballs fly all over the park? Maybe both?

[redneckofsc]

If I had a time machine, I wouldnt go back to 95, 97 or 2007...I would pick a game when Jason Davis or Jeremy Guthrie of pitching.

Because you'd only wanna see three or four innings or because you like watching baseballs fly all over the park? Maybe both?

No, but I would like to see potential Hall of Famers before they are ruined because upper management insists on signing over the hill stool samples, instead of using the talent they have.

[peeker643]

If I had a time machine, I wouldnt go back to 95, 97 or 2007...I would pick a game when Jason Davis or Jeremy Guthrie of pitching.

Because you'd only wanna see three or four innings or because you like watching baseballs fly all over the park? Maybe both?

No, but I would like to see potential Hall of Famers before they are ruined because upper management insists on signing over the hill stool samples, instead of using the talent they have.

Guthrie's gonna have to hurry to let his tremendous talent that's carried him to 10 games under .500 in Baltimore propel him into the HoF.

Or is he so weak minded that the Indians not being impressed with him as a 27 yr old BP pitcher ruined him?

Man, if Jason Davis impresses you you need to raise your standard. Bad starter and worse reliever.

Wasn't he around when the Tribe was ruining guys like CC, Colon, Westbrook, Raffy Right, Cliff Lee and Paul Shuey? How'd those guys overcome?

[redneckofsc]

Shapiro has always had something against guys like Guthrie, JD, BP, the Game, Ludwick, Fernado Cabrera, Franklin Gutierrez, etc.

[gotribe31]

Shapiro has always had something against guys like Guthrie, JD, BP, the Game, Ludwick, Fernado Cabrera, Franklin Gutierrez, etc.

Yes, he held their talent level against them.

[Prosecutor]

Not sure on Germano as he did pitch well down the stretch, but was taken off of the 40-man and cleared waivers. It would be great if they could turn Germano into an asset, but he is in camp as a non-roster invite, so they can put him in Columbus and have him be an option like the rest of those guys.

More arms are never a bad thing for a bullpen.

Do everyone a favor and put your response above into the library. That will save you from havin to type it all again next spring. And you would have to do so because it's clear that some posters don't retain any type of understanding from season to season.

You say Germano cleared waivers huh? Every team passed on the opportunity to snap him up? Hmm...weird that happens when every team in baseball is always desperate for pitching.

Padres Blogger/Bleacher Report/FanSided Nathaniel Stoltz (too numbers based for me but he writes well and is knowledgeable)

Durbin, 33, was an integral part of Philadelphia’s bullpen last year, but still had trouble finding a major league offer with a contending team. Rather than accept a minor league deal, he joined the rebuilding Indians, and should immediately upgrade a bullpen that ranked 26th in FIP last year.

In any case, we’re talking about a guy who’s posted a sub-4.00 FIP in two of the past three seasons, has shown he’s fairly durable, and is young enough that he’s not a likely decline candidate. Moving to the AL will hurt him a bit, perhaps, but the NL East is tough, and Citizens Bank Park is no treat, either. As long as he can throw enough strikes to get by (which was a problem in 2009), he should be an asset, and there’s little doubt he’s an improvement on guys like Frank Herrmann and Justin Germano.

The deal does have a max value of $1.8 million, with incentives, but that’s about what Durbin was worth last year, so if he simply equals his 2010 performance, the Indians will have gotten their money’s worth no matter how much he winds up making. When one considers the fact that Durbin may be replacing a pitcher with a negative WAR figure, that makes it an even better decision. Furthermore, sometimes these relievers can be solid trade chips, so once some of Cleveland’s young relief talent is ready to push the veteran aside, they can flip him for a semi-interesting prospect or two (more, perhaps, if he gets off to a hot start, which is certainly possible).

It’s a solid move for the Indians.

OK, I gotta give credit where it's due. Nice job, Peeks. You finally got off your lazy ass and did some research and found something germane to the topic instead of just spouting off about whatever is in your brain. I didn't think your ego would allow you to post something from another source but you proved me wrong. Well done. And not only that, but there's a statistic in there, too, and an advanced statistic - Fielding Independent Pitching. Wow. It must have damn near killed you put up a stat to support your argument.

Unfortunately, your San Diego boy doesn't know jack about the Tribe. By saying the Indians' bullpen ranked 26th in FIP last year he's making the point that the bullpen was among the worst in baseball, so bad in fact that even a guy that no contender would touch will improve it. What he doesn't know, and we all do, is that the Tribe's bullpen was 2nd in the A.L. in ERA after the All-Star break, and all those guys are back.

Oh, and he thinks Durbin was an "integral part" of the Phillies pen last year. Wonder why he only pitched twice in two playoff series and now no contender wants him on their roster, including the Phillies. Some integral part.

But, you still quoted a reputable source, even though he specializes in west coast teams and was kind of talking out of his ass on this one. Baby steps.

[Prosecutor]

Here's an excerpt from a column at mlb.com:

When the Phillies reeled in marquee free agent Cliff Lee -- assembling an intimidating, and expensive, rotation that also includes Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt and Cole Hamels -- Durbin could see the writing on the wall. The chances of Philadelphia coming through with a guaranteed contract were slim.

"When Cliff signed," Durbin said, "it took any ability to go back there on a Major League deal off the table."

Durbin then smiled.

"You know," he added, "I'd take Cliff Lee over Chad Durbin."

Durbin still thought a Major League contract would be out there.

In all, Durbin said his agent had discussions with 22 teams. As the offseason dragged into February, the Phillies, Red Sox, Rays, Rangers and Mariners were all tied to the pitcher in various reports. Some clubs promised a Major League contract, but no official offers came in.

By the time big league camps opened, Durbin knew he had to make a decision.

"Yeah, I'm not sure what happened to be honest with you," Durbin said. "The way it shook out, it was mid February and then it was late February. It's time to go play baseball. The teams that we were dealing with at the end were all saying, 'If you give us another day or two, we'll find the big league deal.'

"We said, 'It's too late.' We needed it now and that was definitely an edge for Cleveland. But the opportunity here is fantastic as well."

Durbin also pitched for Cleveland for parts of the 2003 and '04 seasons, so being familiar with Antonetti and team president Mark Shapiro certainly helped. The opportunity Durbin referred to, however, was the chance to join a relief corps that posted a 2.95 ERA in the second half a year ago.

The bullpen is anchored by closer Chris Perez and has solid left-handed setup options in Rafael Perez and Tony Sipp. Joe Smith and Jensen Lewis are front-runners to join Durbin as right-handed relievers out of the bullpen. There are a variety of arms in the mix for the final spot in the 'pen this spring.

"These guys don't need much help with the way they were in the second half last year," Durbin said. "So I'm just adding a piece with some experience, maybe slow them down when they're speeding up too much and help them out with understanding what it's like to do it over a full year."

From the last paragraph it sounds like he thinks his role will be to mentor some guys who don't need much help. I don't know who he's talking about. Perez right, Perez left, Smith, Lewis, Sipp - they're all experienced major league pitchers who know what it's like to do it over a full year. Maybe if Stowell or Pestano makes the team he can hold their hand.

[gotribe31]

Not sure on Germano as he did pitch well down the stretch, but was taken off of the 40-man and cleared waivers. It would be great if they could turn Germano into an asset, but he is in camp as a non-roster invite, so they can put him in Columbus and have him be an option like the rest of those guys.

More arms are never a bad thing for a bullpen.

Do everyone a favor and put your response above into the library. That will save you from havin to type it all again next spring. And you would have to do so because it's clear that some posters don't retain any type of understanding from season to season.

You say Germano cleared waivers huh? Every team passed on the opportunity to snap him up? Hmm...weird that happens when every team in baseball is always desperate for pitching.

Padres Blogger/Bleacher Report/FanSided Nathaniel Stoltz (too numbers based for me but he writes well and is knowledgeable)

Durbin, 33, was an integral part of Philadelphia’s bullpen last year, but still had trouble finding a major league offer with a contending team. Rather than accept a minor league deal, he joined the rebuilding Indians, and should immediately upgrade a bullpen that ranked 26th in FIP last year.

In any case, we’re talking about a guy who’s posted a sub-4.00 FIP in two of the past three seasons, has shown he’s fairly durable, and is young enough that he’s not a likely decline candidate. Moving to the AL will hurt him a bit, perhaps, but the NL East is tough, and Citizens Bank Park is no treat, either. As long as he can throw enough strikes to get by (which was a problem in 2009), he should be an asset, and there’s little doubt he’s an improvement on guys like Frank Herrmann and Justin Germano.

The deal does have a max value of $1.8 million, with incentives, but that’s about what Durbin was worth last year, so if he simply equals his 2010 performance, the Indians will have gotten their money’s worth no matter how much he winds up making. When one considers the fact that Durbin may be replacing a pitcher with a negative WAR figure, that makes it an even better decision. Furthermore, sometimes these relievers can be solid trade chips, so once some of Cleveland’s young relief talent is ready to push the veteran aside, they can flip him for a semi-interesting prospect or two (more, perhaps, if he gets off to a hot start, which is certainly possible).

It’s a solid move for the Indians.

OK, I gotta give credit where it's due. Nice job, Peeks. You finally got off your lazy ass and did some research and found something germane to the topic instead of just spouting off about whatever is in your brain. I didn't think your ego would allow you to post something from another source but you proved me wrong. Well done. And not only that, but there's a statistic in there, too, and an advanced statistic - Fielding Independent Pitching. Wow. It must have damn near killed you put up a stat to support your argument.

Unfortunately, your San Diego boy doesn't know jack about the Tribe. By saying the Indians' bullpen ranked 26th in FIP last year he's making the point that the bullpen was among the worst in baseball, so bad in fact that even a guy that no contender would touch will improve it. What he doesn't know, and we all do, is that the Tribe's bullpen was 2nd in the A.L. in ERA after the All-Star break, and all those guys are back.

Oh, and he thinks Durbin was an "integral part" of the Phillies pen last year. Wonder why he only pitched twice in two playoff series and now no contender wants him on their roster, including the Phillies. Some integral part.

But, you still quoted a reputable source, even though he specializes in west coast teams and was kind of talking out of his ass on this one. Baby steps.

Too early for backhanded compliment of the year award?

[Bigfist]

More good news on the way!

http://www.ohio.com/sports/indians/117201288.html

[redneckofsc]

BigFist...who is that woman (or man) in your avatar?

[Bigfist]

BigFist...who is that woman (or man) in your avatar?

It's a woman. That is a picture of my favorite singer, Enya!

[peeker643]

OK, I gotta give credit where it's due. Nice job, Peeks. You finally got off your lazy ass and did some research and found something germane to the topic instead of just spouting off about whatever is in your brain. I didn't think your ego would allow you to post something from another source but you proved me wrong. Well done. And not only that, but there's a statistic in there, too, and an advanced statistic - Fielding Independent Pitching. Wow. It must have damn near killed you put up a stat to support your argument.

Unfortunately, your San Diego boy doesn't know jack about the Tribe. By saying the Indians' bullpen ranked 26th in FIP last year he's making the point that the bullpen was among the worst in baseball, so bad in fact that even a guy that no contender would touch will improve it. What he doesn't know, and we all do, is that the Tribe's bullpen was 2nd in the A.L. in ERA after the All-Star break, and all those guys are back.

Oh, and he thinks Durbin was an "integral part" of the Phillies pen last year. Wonder why he only pitched twice in two playoff series and now no contender wants him on their roster, including the Phillies. Some integral part.

But, you still quoted a reputable source, even though he specializes in west coast teams and was kind of talking out of his ass on this one. Baby steps.

You know why I don't quote a ton of sources Pros? Because a dumbass like you doesn't see what people are saying anyway.

It's gesturing to a blind man and yelling at the deaf.

Pauly C told you, Al C told, Mr. C could tell you, the article I posted told you, it doesn't matter. You see what you want to see.

I'm not in the business of chasing down fucking resources to prove a point any asshole could understand without one.

You sit out there on the eastern seaboard and watch dots. You love what the dots tell you about about fucking JJ Hickson who is actually dumber than you are, you love what they tell you about three middle aged AAAA relievers.

I don't bother because I'm talking to a fucking idiot. Pauly C and Al are just way nicer than I am so they try and explain it to you like they do their 4 yr olds. It's lost on you.

I try and give a wide berth because this place apparently is enjoyable for you. But when stupid shit hits the boards then it gets called out. They signed the guy because he's fucking better than the 27 yr olds that are in the system. He has a track record. How many playoff appearances did the Tragic Trio make last season?

And he's only one guy. Let your Tragic Trio blow away management and earn a spot somewhere. You don't want to admit that common knowledge and a basic look at the fucking roster from this season or in seasons past shows they give talented young kids a shot. Every goddamn year they do it.

Just because that doesn't serve your purpose doesn't mean it's not analysis.

You're a moron. They like a proven major league pitcher who comes cheaply more than the they like the guys you're bitching about. They may even be more confident that Durbin can get major league hitters out because he's gotten them out efficiently for the past couple years.

Fuckin A dude. Find Nosco. Hang out with him. You guys can lament the Sean Smith for Jamey Carroll deal and touch each other til that young stud makes it big too. Still waiting on that calamity of a deal to bite us in the ass.

Christ almighty, all this over nothing. The 24th or 25th spot on the roster and you eggheads who watch dots and decimals can't figure out the plain english that you're being told and what you should be seeing. Durbin's nothing in the grand scheme and the three guys you're pining for aren't anything in the eyes of people who think Chad Durbin is worth $800k.

But you are a dedicated idiot. And thus far loyal. I find that honorable.

[pup]

Let me know where you found that Durbin only got one major league offer please, then we can further discuss.

If you're going by what I gave you then perhaps I see the issue: you're not comprehending what you're provided. What I posted said the following:

Durbin, 33, was an integral part of Philadelphia’s bullpen last year, but still had trouble finding a major league offer with a contending team. Rather than accept a minor league deal, he joined the rebuilding Indians, and should immediately upgrade a bullpen that ranked 26th in FIP last year.

Tell me where it says he got no other major league offers from "non-contending teams".

Why didn't he go back to Philly or another contender? I don't know. Maybe Philly spent enough on Cliff Lee, maybe jobs are hard to find, maybe other teams offered less in incentives.

Then let's discuss the offers Justin Germano received and spurned in order to re-sign with the team that had just cut him.

Plenty of stuff to be upset about in regard to the Tribe. You're choosing this? Well, at least the people who agree with you are solid.

And absolutely- signing a guy with a proven recent track record is clearly dumber than throwing three middle aged minor leaguers on the mound. That's literall throwing it on the mound and seeing what (if anything) sticks.

Your way is much more planful.

So we stole Chad Durbin in a heated bid where he got exactly one Major League contract offer, which he signed. Days after saying he wanted to sign with a contender.

So are we smart for signing Durbin or is everyone else dumb. And why does that logic not apply the same to Germano (who I could care less about but he is the relevant player to discussion)?

Throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks over making quality decisions.

Must have been a bunch of offers that just couldn't quite get into that 800K range the Tribe handed him

Would be nice if we didn't have to throw "three kids at it" either and we could just evaluate talent good enough to not have to throw anything at it. Like maybe our front office knows what they have in the minors and who is ready and who is not. And actually be right about it.

Nope. Not here. We will just roll with the hope.

[paulcousineau]

Via Todd Zolecki, the Phillies' beat writer for MLB.com:

Chad Durbin spoke to Indians reporters today after taking a physical yesterday and signing a one-year, $800,000 deal with a reported $1 million in incentives.

He certainly wanted a more lucrative deal when he hit the free agent market last year.

The Phillies actually made him an offer in December worth more than $2 million guaranteed, including a buyout for 2012. Although no agreement had been reached, it was believed he eventually would resign. But then the Phillies signed Cliff Lee to a five-year, $120 million contract and everything changed. The Phillies pulled the offer and said he could come back, but only on a Minor League deal.

"You know, I'd take Cliff Lee over Chad Durbin," Durbin said today.

http://zozone.mlblogs.com/archives/2011/03/durbin_understands_phils_decis.html

[pup]

So, he is a stiff and stupid. Sweet.

[peeker643]

Via Todd Zolecki, the Phillies' beat writer for MLB.com:

Chad Durbin spoke to Indians reporters today after taking a physical yesterday and signing a one-year, $800,000 deal with a reported $1 million in incentives.

He certainly wanted a more lucrative deal when he hit the free agent market last year.

The Phillies actually made him an offer in December worth more than $2 million guaranteed, including a buyout for 2012. Although no agreement had been reached, it was believed he eventually would resign. But then the Phillies signed Cliff Lee to a five-year, $120 million contract and everything changed. The Phillies pulled the offer and said he could come back, but only on a Minor League deal.

"You know, I'd take Cliff Lee over Chad Durbin," Durbin said today.

http://zozone.mlblogs.com/archives/2011/03/durbin_understands_phils_decis.html

Timing is everything Pup.

Apology accepted.

Not from you Pros. I still think you're a window licking moron.

But you're still loyal.

You guys really should look this shit up though. Helps to know what's out there when you''re taking a position or making a point.

[e0y2e3]

I love this thread.

Reminds me of last year when we got to read 2000 words on why Z is a better starting center than Shaq (compliments of Pros and a +/- article).

[pup]

Which Major League offer did he turn down to take ours?

He had no other offers on the table when he signed with the Indians. Just like the stiff Germano.

But if it helps your headache to win this one, go ahead.

[pup]

Good times.

One National League scout was sure of it.

"Durbin is the 13th pitcher on a 12-man staff," the scout said.