Cleveland Indians & MLB

by **swerb** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:39 am

I've long been a proponent of grooming Carmona to be a 7th/8th inning guy. He's proceeded to make me look like s jackass by really faring pretty well in his three starts so far filling in for an injured Cliffie.

What do you do with this guy when Cliffie comes back? Cliffies got a rehab start tonight I believe.

Three options as I see it.

~Back to Buffalo to continue starting

~To the bullpen, which would mean sending down Mastny (2.84 ERA) or trading Jason Davis (1.50 ERA)

~Kick Paul Byrd in the balls and 15 day him with sore testicles

Also, does Carmona's solid showing as a starter impact at all the decision making process with Adam Miller? If Oldberto and Borowski struggle, or die of old age, do you consider making Miller a back inning hammer ... and locking in Fausto as a starter?

CC, Lee, Jake, Sowers are under contract this year. Byrd has a team option. Will be interesting to see how the Tribe handles this one.

by **Dozen** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:50 am

Kick Paul Byrd in the balls and 15 day him with sore testicles

by **consigliere** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:50 am

Swerb wrote:Three options as I see it.

~Back to Buffalo to continue starting

~To the bullpen, which would mean sending down Mastny (2.84 ERA) or trading Jason Davis (1.50 ERA)

~Kick Paul Byrd in the balls and 15 day him with sore testicles

Yes, it will be interesting to see how they handle Fausto.

Personally, I believe he should stick in the rotation. He is ready, and has much more upside than Byrd at this point. It is very early in the season, but I seriously throw Byrd's name around and see if with Byrd and a prospect we can land a quality late inning reliever or bat in the lineup.

No way should they put him in the bullpen mid-season. I don't want to screw around with his head anymore.....make that move in the offseason if need be. And, no, I am not putting Adam Miller in the bullpen at this point. He needs a full year in Buffalo to work on several things to polish himself off, and then next year would be a great 6th starter option like Fausto is this year.....and then when Sabathia leaves he is inserted in the rotation for good in 2009.

It looks like the Indians will send him to Buffalo though. Lee threw a bullpen session yesterday I believe....which was more to get him in line with Carmona's slot in the rotation. I believe Lee is scheduled to pitch again in Buffalo on Sunday (when Carmona makes his final start on Sunday) and then you'll see a move made shortly after that so Lee can pitch on Carmona's next start on May 4th.

by **Steve Buffum** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:11 am

I think considering the bullpen is crazy. I remember the Danys Baez Story, and I'm not crazy about the live version we have now in Jason Davis.

Carmona starts. Where is far less important than the fact that he does. I think you send him to Beefalo.

by **paulcousineau** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:16 pm

No question you keep him in the rotation and, unless you send Mastny down, there's no place to put Byrd in the bullpen b/c of Davis and Cabrera being out of options (not that you would send Cabrera down).

You keep Carmona in Buffalo, pitching every 5th day with the full knowledge that he'll be needed again at some point this year in the Tribe rotation and that he solidified his position to take Byrd's spot in 2008, small sample size be damned.

by **paulcousineau** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:42 pm

By the way, is it too late to call this kid El Diablo?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faustian_bargain

by **Steve Buffum** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:51 pm

The DiaTriber wrote:By the way, is it too late to call this kid El Diablo?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faustian_bargain

That's good, although JB came up with the "himselfian bargain" last year and I like that one better.

by **StewieG** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:29 pm

I vote for kicking Byrd in the balls.

If I can trade Byrd sometime this year, I do it. Especially if it nets us a corner outfielder, left side of the infielder, or solid bullpen guy.

If you're the Tribe, you've now got a conundrum. But it's the good kind of conundrum, as in "we've got all these guys doing good, but we have to send someone away because we've got too many guys doing good".

I think they send him down to Buffalo, because I just don't see another move they can make. You CAN'T put him in the bullpen. We almost screwed him up last year by doing that. It's best not to chance screwing him up again. You can't keep him in the rotation, because either he or Sowers would have to go down (they're the only two with options, I believe), and Sowers ain't going down. That leaves Buffalo, unfortunately.

But I will still volunteer to give Byrd a drive-by nadsmash.

by **consigliere** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:09 pm

Yeah, only option is to send Carmona to Buffalo. I will be surprised if they trade Byrd or anyone else this early in the season.

by **leadpipe** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:52 pm

Consigliere wrote:Yeah, only option is to send Carmona to Buffalo. I will be surprised if they trade Byrd or anyone else this early in the season.

This is what will happen, even though the one they SHOULDN'T be worried about is Byrd. Look, you've got a young guy with potential that you jocked around so much last year you're lucky the guy even has his head on straight. He looks like he's settling into the rotation and now you yank him out for.... Paul Byrd. If they were making the same money things would be different.

Look what you have to lose if you screw Carmona and his head over again. What do you lose my pissing off Byrd?

If one player was labled player A and one player B, with the same numbers, age, situation, Carmona would be the choice. But he won't be.

by **sandlot33** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:10 pm

I say you trade him (byrd)to the yanks who defenitely need him....from what I hear they have some really good prospects all of a sudden in their farm system

by **consigliere** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:20 pm

F the Yankees. They can have Jason Davis. But, I am not helping them with their pitching problems.

IMO, if Byrd is dealt it would be back to Anaheim or to an NL team.

by **Steve Buffum** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:26 pm

Consigliere wrote:IMO, if Byrd is dealt it would be back to Anaheim or to an NL team.

In the off-season, I kept thinking that he'd thrive in Washington.

Except Washington's got nuthin'. NUH-THING. I mean, nothing they'd actually move: you're not getting Zimmerman, you won't get Hill, no Cordero for you. Maybe the triumphant return of Ryan Church, except I think they overvalue him. (That's a bad team.)

He'd actually be fine in LA or SD, too, but the Pods have the Old Pitcher Market covered and LA has a little pitching of its own.

I don't see the rush here: you're gonna need six starters to make it through the season. Are you really, really, really, REALLY convinced that Miller or Stanford (or Sowers for that matter) would DEFINITELY be okay in a pennant race? Instead of going "all in," how 'bout we "check" a few hands first?

by **drewd** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:41 pm

idk why ppl get there hopes up so high for Carmona
who won his second game of his career and lost 11 with a career era of 5.34
o and Paul Byrd so far with us is 11-10(4.69 era with the tribe) better then 2-11
i found this quote in an article today that states it pritty well.

"Carmona won his big-league debut April 15, 2006 against Detroit. He then lost 11 straight decisions, 10 last year and one this season. "

by **Steve Buffum** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:53 pm

drewd wrote:"Carmona won his big-league debut April 15, 2006 against Detroit. He then lost 11 straight decisions, 10 last year and one this season. "

Um ... because at least half those "11 decisions" weren't starts?

Because Carmona is young and at an age at which he could be expected to improve?

Because Carmona has excellent stuff and his "career ERA" is a lousy way to project his expected performance?

It's too early to say he's a finished product, but if you don't see more in Fausto Carmona than you do in Paul Byrd, I think you're a poor evaluator.

by **drewd** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:58 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:Um ... because at least half those "11 decisions" weren't starts?
.

dude he closed last year, pitching one inning. Come on if you cant hold a lead for one inning how could you be a consistent starting, relief, or closing??

2-11 isnt consistent to me even if half of those loses were from closing!

by **Steve Buffum** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:09 pm

drewd wrote:2-11 isnt consistent to me even if half of those loses were from closing!

Actually, it's incredibly consistent. Consistently bad. (Badump-bum!)

Seriously, last year was a mess. He got jerked around. This year he's better. If you think he will always pitch the way he pitched last year, I don't think this discussion is likely to bear fruit.

by **leadpipe** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:36 pm

There is a difference between saying "Carmona is going to be a star" and "Carmona has more upside than Paul Byrd." What I'm saying is that if Byrd does what one is expecting of him, (and, at his age he is what he is) then how in the world is it a gamble to go with Carmona? You can only win, you can't lose. If Carmona bombs out wit a 5.00 ERA, well, that was Byrd last year. Again, it ain't like your bumping Clemens.

by **consigliere** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:19 pm

Ok.

Folks, he has to stay in the rotation. This kid is ready NOW. And, top of that, I am not sure I want to screw around with what is working.

Yes, he probably has to go to Buffalo, as there is no other choice really......but Carmona should be in the starting rotation. No question. Do Shapiro and company seriously consider a deal this week for someone like Byrd? Would you? I highly doubt it happens, but I am of the opinion now that you absolutely cannot take Fausto out of the rotation.

by **Hoover** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:23 pm

They won't trade Byrd for a while, if at all. Recent history tells us they'll hang on to him until at least late June, just like they did with Jason Johnson.

If they do actually trade Byrd, they won't get much for him. But it must be done. Carmona is too much of a stud to keep down at Buffalo.

by **DarNoor** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:24 pm

I'm with you Consig. There is no way he is not out of the rotation. And i don't want to hear any talk about him going in the bullpen. The last thing this team needs is to screw around with his head. I look to trade Byrd.

by **consigliere** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:35 pm

Bullpen? Bad. Very bad. They better not put them there.

Buffalo? That would suck, but would be the likely choice and isn't going to destroy his confidence I suppose.

Now, I must say, Byrd would certainly be attractive I would think the the Yanks.....but do you help them out unless you rape the shit out of them in a deal?

by **StewieG** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:42 pm

If I rape them, I do it. If I don't love the deal, I don't. The pressure to make a deal is solely on the Yankees. We're fine where we're at. We're at the top of the division, our pitching has been solid, our offense has been decent...we don't HAVE to make a move. But if they offer me a deal I have a hard time turning down, then I don't turn it down.

by **FUDU** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:21 pm

Put Byrd in the pen.

by **Steve Buffum** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:40 pm

Send Sowers down. You're adding a lefty in Lee, and Carmona is the better pitcher (btw the starters with options).

by **KChmura** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:01 pm

why not DFA Jason Davis

by **pod2dawg** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:49 pm

Byrd-man needs to develop tendonitis of the elbow, shoulder bursitis, an abdominal muscle pull, pulled groin etc. for 15 days........or be kicked in the balls.... until someone in the rotation does.

by **The Math God** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:08 pm

Send him to Buffalo so he can start every 5th day. That way he is ready for a call up to fill a starter slot or a slot in the pen.

Adam Miller is still a prospect. I watched him pitch against Toledo and he is not ready for the show. If Fausto stays in the Buffalo rotation, he can fill whatever role we need him to. If he is in the Cleveland pen, he won't be stretched out.

I'd love to see Byrd packaged with ??? to get us a right handed power bat to play one of the 4 corners.

Having 6 starters is a great problem to have. The Yankees barely have 3.

by **Steve Buffum** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:14 pm

chmura sports wrote:why not DFA Jason Davis

Because throwing away assets is dumb?

by **hermanfontenot** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:17 pm

The caveat to dealing Byrd is, we'd be getting rid of the only starter in our rotation with postseason experience. I might be jumping the gun here (in fact, I KNOW I'm jumping the gun here), but that experience could come in awfully handy down the stretch if we're still in the thick of things.

by **captain_wahoo** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:33 pm

Trade Byrd and Hernandez to the Yankees for Mike Meyers and something else.

by **Mr. MacPhisto** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:58 pm

I would definitely only trade Byrd to the Yanks if we raped them. I'd give other AL East teams the ability to compete for Byrd just to drive the price up.
I could see the Red Sox even taking an interest because he'd shore up their #5 spot. Byrd > Tavarez.

by **furls** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:18 am

I cannot remember ever seeing a guy with as much movement on his fastball as carmona. If this kids head ever gets 100% right, he could be an ace. The starters have been much better than their records or ERAs would lead you to believe.

If the bats get going this is going to be an amazing team to follow this year. Tribe just needs some more consistent pop. What I wouldn't do for a corner infielder with pop.

by **consigliere** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:32 am

BTW, DFAing Davis does absolutely nothing to solve the Fausto dilemna. And no, they aren't making Fausto or Byrd long relief.

Fausto is ready. Miller is ready, although I am completely fine waiting on him until 2008. But, Miller is ready to pitch today.

That said, with a few of the other guys at Buffalo, we still have quality starting pitch depth to handle the loss of Paul Byrd in a trade.

by **leadpipe** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:43 am

Again, they will keep Byrd in the rotation because they are paying him. Carmona or Miller aren't going to be much worse than Byrd even if they STRUGGLE. There is one reason, and one reason only why Paul Byrd is in the way $$$. Look, the guy was aroung 5 last year, he'll be around 5.00 this year. He's old, at the end of the line. If there wasn't a financial aspect the decision would be easy.

Also, why worry about who you're trading a bad pitcher to? Be happey enough teams will be desperate enough to offer something.

by **captain_wahoo** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:08 am

We can all agree that Byrd needs to be traded to make room for Carmona. Anyone who thinks we will get a whole lot of anything for Byrd is crazy. If we move him to the Yankees, I would like to get Mike Meyers because he is a submarine lefty. This would give us a different look out of the pen not to mention a 2nd left handed reliever. The benefit is also that the Yankees can easily absorb Byrd's salary. The money Byrd would have been owed this year and next year (if we had picked up his option) can go towards signing CC and Pronk.

by **Dozen** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:55 am

Lead Pipe wrote:Again, they will keep Byrd in the rotation because they are paying him. Carmona or Miller aren't going to be much worse than Byrd even if they STRUGGLE. There is one reason, and one reason only why Paul Byrd is in the way $$$. Look, the guy was aroung 5 last year, he'll be around 5.00 this year. He's old, at the end of the line. If there wasn't a financial aspect the decision would be easy.

Also, why worry about who you're trading a bad pitcher to? Be happey enough teams will be desperate enough to offer something.

I agree Pipes, not like it would be scary to face him even if he's on the yanks.......got get a bully arm for him...........hell a loaf of bread :lol:

by **pup** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:02 am

Has anyone seen the Yankees bullpen? I know their rotation is bad, but at least they have some guys on the mend, and Roger Clemens to fall back on. Their bullpen? It is terrible.

by **Dozen** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:18 am

Pup wrote:Has anyone seen the Yankees bullpen? I know their rotation is bad, but at least they have some guys on the mend, and Roger Clemens to fall back on. Their bullpen? It is terrible.

Sorry Pup, didnt mean from the Yanks bully it just dont scare me to send Byrd to them. I doubt it would improve them much............. Im sure he's worth a bully arm somewhere

by **unvme2** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:37 am

If I had to pick any of the options first listed I would chose back to Buffalo to continue starting.

That said, if I was manager I would keep Carmona in the rotation as he has a groove going.

by **Mr. MacPhisto** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:35 pm

I think it might be best to dangle Byrd and see if anyone bites. I'm not sure what teams would be willing to offer for him, but he's looked good this season, has experience, is cheap, and has a cheap option for next year. Maybe a future RHed power bat for the OF, a prospect that is getting close to the Bigs?

by **paulcousineau** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:54 pm

So WHEN (not if) someone else gets hurt and Byrd has been traded and Fausto is already in the rotation, are you really comfortable throwing Miller into the mix and trying to win the division with Sowers, Carmona, and Miller in the rotation?

Together, they total about 1 year of experience going down the stretch.

Whether you like Byrd or not, he's done nothing to pitch his way out of town this year and the depth that Carmona and Miller provide give us something to work with going forward...like in July!

Aside from the fact that you don't trade a starter that's performing well in a year you plan to contend, it's not even May! It's far too early to have this conversation, regardless of how well Carmona has pitched (and he has pitched magnificently).

by **pup** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:27 pm

Super post DiaTriber

by **consigliere** » Tue May 01, 2007 2:08 pm

FYI, I got an email from a reliable person the Indians have indeed "kicked the tires on a Byrd trade." NL seems a likely destination, and one of them could very be Atlanta. Front office is sold on Carmona, but also don't want to make a rash decision so soon in the season.....so we'll see.

by **Dozen** » Tue May 01, 2007 2:23 pm

Consigliere wrote:FYI, I got an email from a reliable person the Indians have indeed "kicked the tires on a Byrd trade." NL seems a likely destination, and one of them could very be Atlanta. Front office is sold on Carmona, but also don't want to make a rash decision so soon in the season.....so we'll see.

Wow, nice to see the FO recognizing Carmona's potential as a starter right now........keep us posted.

by **Mr. MacPhisto** » Tue May 01, 2007 2:36 pm

Consigliere wrote:FYI, I got an email from a reliable person the Indians have indeed "kicked the tires on a Byrd trade." NL seems a likely destination, and one of them could very be Atlanta. Front office is sold on Carmona, but also don't want to make a rash decision so soon in the season.....so we'll see.

Atlanta was a place I thought Byrd could land. They've had him there before and could use the vet to solidfy their rotation.

A trade with Atlanta would probably get us some more pitching on the farm. They don't have much outside of it and they're not going to dangle Salty for Byrd. Not a lot of good OF prospects and that's what I'd be most interested in.

by **skatingtripods** » Tue May 01, 2007 5:10 pm

Everyone has good comments, especially about giving Byrd a rochambeau, but let's have him and Wedge rochambeau each other.

In any event, Carmona has to go to Buffalo. Let the kid pitch every day and continue to develop. DiaTriber is right. This team will have major troubles going with such a young rotation in the event that somebody gets hurt.

Also, if you send Carmona down, we can see once again how he deals with adversity. The closer role was a disaster, but for him to pitch like he did here and then still have to go down to Buffalo will show his character. If he pouts and pitches like shit, well, then it tells me something about him.

First post, eh? I've been a lurker for a few weeks now after finding out about this site and decided to join today. Hope to have some good arguments and be able to contribute with you guys!

by **skatingtripods** » Tue May 01, 2007 5:12 pm

Consigliere wrote:FYI, I got an email from a reliable person the Indians have indeed "kicked the tires on a Byrd trade." NL seems a likely destination, and one of them could very be Atlanta. Front office is sold on Carmona, but also don't want to make a rash decision so soon in the season.....so we'll see.

I had this argument with a buddy last night and what return can Byrd honestly get us except for money? I don't think that we are in a position, even with our depth, to compromise a shot at the playoffs just because of how Carmona pitched in one month. Now if Byrd can get us a better lefty than Fultz, it certainly helps the pen. But we've had incredible luck with our rotation's health and we cannot take that for granted and make a rash decision.

by **pup** » Tue May 01, 2007 5:42 pm

We might need him to make a couple starts in the Seattle series makeup games. Unless Byrd will net us a LH bullpen arm (or just bring up Lara/Perez but that is a different battle) or a RH bat, keep Byrd.

by **leadpipe** » Tue May 01, 2007 5:57 pm

Carmona has earned a job.
He is one of the top pitching commodities in the organization.
They should be done screwing with the guy.
Paul Byrd isn't a good pitcher.
Do you want to jeapordize one of your top arms, or piss off a fading vet?
If Carmona continues to pitch well, what you get for Byrd in insignificant compared to what you might lose.

This is a financial decision only. Without finances, no controversy.

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