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Wedge

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:35 pm

Not too many fans of Wedge in these parts.

This could make for a long year. I'm of the opinion that sometimes AL managing can be a little overrated. This isn't the case here. When you've got 74 positions platooning, a old & suspect bullpen and a poor defensive infield, you've got a situation that needs a MANAGER.
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I know I'll get blasted but...

Unread postby Charboneau » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:00 am

I don't think Wedgie does a bad job. The 162 game season is a grind. He's working on getting the platoon in order, the lineup in order, and the bullpen. Sure you come out of spring training with a good sense of who goes where and when - but a huge part of the month of April is getting your club squared away. The hope is two-fold - 1. that the pieces come together quickly and you're not still working out the above in August 2. you win enough games during the process to be in striking distance and not 10 games out of first after the month of April. Plus this team still has some holes and he has to go with what he has.

Now, I am not convinced Marte is the answer at third. In 50 games last year he hit .226. In fact his best year ever for average was in 2003 when he hit .285 for Myrtle Beach. He's always had good pop, even in the minors, but he is literally an automatic out since coming to Cleveland. The option to play Blake at third is there, but the thought is you give something up defensively. I'm not convinced Marte is that much better defensively - at least 6 games into the year.

I admit I have seen enough of Oldberto. I know Wedge wants to give him a look but I bet if he struggles the next time or two he goes out - he's gone. Davis is a guy to eat up innings. I have no issue with how Wedge is using Betancourt right now and the way Cabrera threw the other night - he's going to figure as well. Again, I think Oldberto is the question mark in that bunch and Wedge needs to (and is trying) figure out if he can cut it. Like picking up an old lawnmower - if it still runs why not use it for trimming the ditch? Not ready to give up on Borowski either - he's 3 for 3 in save ops. Have they been pretty? Nope. But better than 3 blown opportunities.

Peralta is hitting the heck out of the ball but I don't want him moved in the batting order. He seems to me to be such a head case that a change in his spot in the lineup would drive him into a 3 for 20 Marte-like tailspin. I hold my breath everytime a ball is hit to Honny but he is what he is and we have to go with it. I do have reservations about Casey Blake in the 5 spot. I hope we get a good dose of Shoppach catching, Victor at first, and Blake at third this season. With Pronk as DH that lineup gives you some punch as Shoppach showed some power when he was in the Red Sox system at Pawtucket.

The platoon in the outfield is fine right now a I see it. The only three issues I have with Wedgie (that I think will work themselves out as the season progresses) are: Oldberto, Marte, and Blake in the five hole. But remember we are 6 games into the year - let's kick the tires a bit and see. We have some holes - but I think we are in better shape to fill them this year than last. Let's give Wedgie a chance beyond 6 games with this team it's too early yet. Hey we're playing .666 ball right now!

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Unread postby swerb » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:02 am

Alot of good points Super Joe. Welcome to the boards.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:50 am

I have a self-imposed gag order to not get too high on the good performance of the team/players the first few weeks, and not too low on the bad performance of the team/players the first few months. That includes not going gaga over Barfield yet, or Borowski. But, not ledging on guys like Oldberto, Dellucci, Nixon and Marte yet either.

I need a larger sample of games, and these guys to get into a routine before I can really pass judgement on these guys. Right now, I just want wins, and I want to see what good/bad trends develop.

But, that said, the one person who is fair game is Eric Wedge. I have never really had ANY problem with Wedge's managerial style off the field and in the clubhouse. I think he is excellent in that regard. I also have never really had a problem with him not bunting or stealing bases more often, as I feel both of those things are over-rated and have become cliche among fans.

But, the one thing I have always had a problem with is the way he handles the bullpen. His handling of the bullpen makes Mike Brown's handling of the Cavs offense look like the Nash/Suns offense. And, to date, he has just been completed awful with his handling of it.

Which begs the question: is part of the reason for the Indians ineffective bullpen centered around Wedge? I mean, aside from 2005 when he road Wickman/Howry, since he has been here the bullpens have been aawful in 2003, 2004, and 2006. Yes, the players were bad.....but is Wedge's poor handling of the bully influencing the guys to suck more than they already do?
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:15 am

Nice piece by Paul today with "The Song Remains the Same?"

Agreed completely.....
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:38 am

Very well-put Consig.

I generally don't have a problem with Wedge's handling of the lineup, platoons, starting pitchers, etc.

Completely agreed, again, that it’s extremely early to make judgments on anything critical. But the bullpen usage patterns are just too reminiscent of Wedge sticking with Gas Can Graves and Gilly Mota last year when they were obviously not providing effective innings. Perhaps better alternatives weren’t available, but to consistently hand those guys the ball just undermined whatever else was happening on the field.

At a certain point, track record and veteran experience has to take a back seat to what is happening on the mound in the “here and now”. Isn’t this what Spring Training is for – to slot the relievers into their roles, so the bullpen breaks camp with some semblance of an order? Last year proved that you don’t just throw young guys in there, with a pat and the back and a “Good Luck, Kid”, but isn’t there a better way to approach this?

By no means am I suggesting the bullpen gets blown up after 6 games (and, admittedly, 3 saves); but with the Indians poised to contend in a very competitive division, it’s vital for them not to give away games in April while they see if Hernandez (the whipping boy of the first week) still has anything left.

It’s a situation that bears watching, as it will be interesting if Wedge continues to make the call to an obviously struggling reliever in a tight game or changes his usage patterns to find an effective mix at the back end of the bullpen as he did down the stretch in 2005 (the only time that he really has).
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:54 am

I think the Indians need a setup man, and will have to go out and get one. I like Betancourt/Hernandez more in a 7th inning role and occassional 8th inning role. Cut JD, and go out and find a setup man, whether it be bringing in Lidge whom I think is obtainable and needs a change of scenery and role to re-find himself....or backing up the prospects truck (to a reasonable level) for Cordero from Washington.

Also, when Lee comes back, and if we still have a need for a setup man, anyone think the Indians may consider Carmona for the role? He was outstanding in the setup role last year.....
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:56 am

Consigliere wrote:Also, when Lee comes back, and if we still have a need for a setup man, anyone think the Indians may consider Carmona for the role? He was outstanding in the setup role last year.....

I can't dismiss it out of hand, but I've always been on the "starter" side of the "starter v. closer" debate, and the way he looked in winter ball and Spring Training, I would (as of 4/13/07) greatly prefer Carmona remain a starter.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:01 am

Fernando Cabrera.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:25 am

Steve Buffum wrote:I can't dismiss it out of hand, but I've always been on the "starter" side of the "starter v. closer" debate, and the way he looked in winter ball and Spring Training, I would (as of 4/13/07) greatly prefer Carmona remain a starter.


Me too....was just throwing it out there.
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wedge

Unread postby rawdawgexpress » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:18 pm

The Wedge Effect is defined as:
1)Consistent bad baserunning
2)inability to manufacture runs
3)poor defensive fundamentals
4)pitchers not holding men on base
5)poor usage of bullpen
6)tightening up during "big games" (last week of '05)


Proof: 2006 Cleveland Indians Pythagorean Wins - 2006 Cleveland Indians Actual Wins = The Wedge Effect.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:25 pm

From May 12, 2006:

http://swerbsblurbs.com/article_detail.php?id=366


None of these problems are new, so why would anyone expect them to change now? Wedge is a bum. His rah rah garbage worked very well in the minors and with a bunch of kids.

Maybe he would be effective at his alma matter, and he could take Casey Blake with him.
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Re: I know I'll get blasted but...

Unread postby drewd » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:26 am

Charboneau wrote:I don't think Wedgie does a bad job.
he hasn't gotten to the playoffs since 2001 and i dont think he was mananger back then.
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Unread postby Dozen » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:06 am

That playoff was inherited from the former regime.............. Anyone who credits the Dolans for that is a dumbass.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:41 am

Dozen wrote:That playoff was inherited from the former regime.............. Anyone who credits the Dolans for that is a dumbass.


Oh stop, that playoff team was two years into the Dolan ownership.

So, does Dan Gilbert get absolutely no credit for making the playoffs the last two years, or is that all Gordon Gund? :lol:
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Unread postby Dozen » Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:51 pm

Consigliere wrote:
Dozen wrote:That playoff was inherited from the former regime.............. Anyone who credits the Dolans for that is a dumbass.


Oh stop, that playoff team was two years into the Dolan ownership.

So, does Dan Gilbert get absolutely no credit for making the playoffs the last two years, or is that all Gordon Gund? :lol:


Man if you believe what you just typed......well, I got nothing
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Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:27 pm

Nobody should receive credit for making the playoffs in a league where 70 percent of the teams make it.
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Unread postby Dozen » Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:14 pm

Consigliere wrote:
Dozen wrote:That playoff was inherited from the former regime.............. Anyone who credits the Dolans for that is a dumbass.


Oh stop, that playoff team was two years into the Dolan ownership.

So, does Dan Gilbert get absolutely no credit for making the playoffs the last two years, or is that all Gordon Gund? :lol:


Who did the Dolan regime add that helped?
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:26 pm

Dozen wrote:
Consigliere wrote:
Dozen wrote:That playoff was inherited from the former regime.............. Anyone who credits the Dolans for that is a dumbass.


Oh stop, that playoff team was two years into the Dolan ownership.

So, does Dan Gilbert get absolutely no credit for making the playoffs the last two years, or is that all Gordon Gund? :lol:


Who did the Dolan regime add that helped?

Why is Dolan relevant to a thread evaluating Wedge?
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Unread postby Dozen » Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:44 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:
Dozen wrote:
Consigliere wrote:
Dozen wrote:That playoff was inherited from the former regime.............. Anyone who credits the Dolans for that is a dumbass.


Oh stop, that playoff team was two years into the Dolan ownership.

So, does Dan Gilbert get absolutely no credit for making the playoffs the last two years, or is that all Gordon Gund? :lol:


Who did the Dolan regime add that helped?

Why is Dolan relevant to a thread evaluating Wedge?


Its not :lol:
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:29 pm

Dozen wrote:Who did the Dolan regime add that helped?


Signed Chuck FInley, Ellis Burks, Juan Gonzalez, and Danys Baez? Traded for David Segui? Traded for Wickman? Just some of the moves in the first two years of ownership.
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Unread postby Dozen » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:34 pm

Consigliere wrote:
Dozen wrote:Who did the Dolan regime add that helped?
:lol:

Signed Chuck FInley, Ellis Burks, Juan Gonzalez, and Danys Baez? Traded for David Segui? Traded for Wickman? Just some of the moves in the first two years of ownership.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:44 pm

Um, Wickman didn't help? Burks and Gonzo didn't help ease the loss of Manny? Segui didn't help the late-season push in 2000? Finley didn't help the depleted pitching staff he inherited in 2000?

Hey, whatever floats your boat.....

Carry on.
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Unread postby pup » Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:19 am

Wedge still sucks.
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Unread postby Dozen » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:55 am

Consigliere wrote:Um, Wickman didn't help? Burks and Gonzo didn't help ease the loss of Manny? Segui didn't help the late-season push in 2000? Finley didn't help the depleted pitching staff he inherited in 2000?

Hey, whatever floats your boat.....

Carry on.


I guess you are right, but that was kinda the 1st wave of 2nd tier guys after the 90's. I guess I was spoiled. :-( :sad: :(
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