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Indians tried to acquire A-Rod

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Indians tried to acquire A-Rod

Unread postby consigliere » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:36 pm

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Unread postby DGeneral » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:45 pm

A-Rod to the Indians is a pipe dream. Dolan will never absorb any part of his contract.

Hafner, CC, Westbrook aren't going to get paid by Dolan, A-Rod or any SuperStar talent will never get paid by Dolan.

Reports like that are pretty baseless.
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Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:16 am

DGeneral wrote:A-Rod to the Indians is a pipe dream. Dolan will never absorb any part of his contract.

Hafner, CC, Westbrook aren't going to get paid by Dolan, A-Rod or any SuperStar talent will never get paid by Dolan.

Reports like that are pretty baseless.


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A-Rod

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:50 am

If they can afford A-Rod. Then they can afford C.C. and Pronk.

As attendance grows this year, so will payroll. I'd say up to $90-100 million by 2009. That should be enough to sign two of the three core guys about to hit the market.
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Re: A-Rod

Unread postby consigliere » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:21 am

bookelly wrote:If they can afford A-Rod. Then they can afford C.C. and Pronk.

As attendance grows this year, so will payroll. I'd say up to $90-100 million by 2009. That should be enough to sign two of the three core guys about to hit the market.


Payroll will never get that high.

We are close to the payroll ceiling. Next offseason looks to be the offseason where it may balloon to somewhere in the $70Ms. But, it ain't getting any higher than $80M. Whether or not you believe the owner is cheap or not, the club just doesn't bring in enough revenue to support a payroll anything above $80M. Unless they start selling out or averaging 35K a night, which is never happening again.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:04 am

Payroll will never get that high.


Yes it will. Only problem is when they get that high, the rest of baseball will be at $130million. Prices will continue to rise, it is the way of the world.

Once the Dolan's get back to even from the rape job Jacobs did to them, there will be more money to spend.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:33 am

Pup wrote:
Payroll will never get that high.


Yes it will. Only problem is when they get that high, the rest of baseball will be at $130million. Prices will continue to rise, it is the way of the world.

Once the Dolan's get back to even from the rape job Jacobs did to them, there will be more money to spend.


I disagree.

Average ticket price has not increased much since the Jacob's years....yet they sold the place out, got buckets of revenue from being in the playoffs, sold gear like crazy, etc.....yet only had a $58M payroll. There is no way they will ever have a payroll over $80M unless they increase the avg ticket price to $42 (like in Boston) AND put 32K or more a night into the Jake.

Ain't happening. Even if this team gets on a run again and wins and makes the playoffs a few years in a row, avg attendance will likely max out at 31-33M a game....a far cry from the 42K a night from 95-00.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:55 pm

Dolan will never make back the money that Jacobs took him for. Wow, what a bad business deal that was. Anyways, the issue with Dolan and his frugality and all these numbers. With baseball the way it is and the books always remaining closed, payroll numbers don't mean all that much. We have no idea what any team is making or losing aside from the numbers they report. Some owners may be willing to use a bigger piece of their profit margin than others, but we have no way of really knowing.

I personally don't think Dolan came into this situation planning on being tight with cash, I think the enormity of the miscalculations he made regarding the purchase of the team has forced his hand.

Either way, it's not the fans fault, but we'll pay.
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Re: A-Rod

Unread postby DGeneral » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:34 pm

Consigliere wrote: Unless they start selling out or averaging 35K a night, which is never happening again.


If an owner puts a competitive team on the field that has a reasonable chance to win a WS title, 35K per night is very possible. This town is starved for a winner. The astute owner that delivers it will win the rabid fans business.

You couldn't get tickets from 94 to 01 because there was such a high demand. Saying that fans will not support this team in droves just supports Dolan's not spending any money on quality veteran assets.
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Re: A-Rod

Unread postby consigliere » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:25 pm

DGeneral wrote:If an owner puts a competitive team on the field that has a reasonable chance to win a WS title, 35K per night is very possible. This town is starved for a winner. The astute owner that delivers it will win the rabid fans business.


Really? The team at the end of 2005 was about as much of a World Series threat as we have ever had. Yet, minus the season ending homestand with the White Sox, over their last 20-25 home games in Aug/Sept they averaged around 25-27K a night. In fact, the previous 9 games before that White Sox series about 4-5 of them only had 20-21K a night.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/sch ... e=2&half=2

THat was an opportune time for the fans to prove they would support a winner again.

Right now, if the Indians were to become a perenniel playoff team again, you are looking at around 30K a night on average TOPS.

You couldn't get tickets from 94 to 01 because there was such a high demand. Saying that fans will not support this team in droves just supports Dolan's not spending any money on quality veteran assets.


You couldn't get tickets from 1994-2000 because the Browns were out of town 3 of those years, the Cavs stunk, and this town hadn't seen a baseball winner in almost 40 years. There were almost three generations of Cleveland fans who had never experienced winning baseball, it was pure euphoria. Add to that an exciting young team and a brand spanking new state of the art ballpark, and you get that attendance surge from 95-00.

If the Indians get on another run, none of that is happening again. For most fans, it is a "been there and done that" mentality with regard to the excitement with a potential playoff team. It no longer is as exciting as it was for many since we just experienced it 5-7 years ago. Also, Jacob's Field is entering its 14th season (wow) this year. The Browns are back. The Cavs are the hot ticket in town.

No one is making an excuse for Dolan here. Just being realistic. If he gets payroll into the $70Ms, there should not be much to complain about with that. Personally, I am not a Dolan fan at all, although I find it amusing how much flack he gets for being cheap while Jacobs never gets any of it. Amazing the pedestal he is on, when in reality, he was cheaper than Dolan is.
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Re: A-Rod

Unread postby DGeneral » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:32 pm

Consigliere wrote:Really? The team at the end of 2005 was about as much of a World Series threat as we have ever had. Yet, minus the season ending homestand with the White Sox, over their last 20-25 home games in Aug/Sept they averaged around 25-27K a night. In fact, the previous 9 games before that White Sox series about 4-5 of them only had 20-21K a night.


Dolan drove away 2 million fans after the gutting of payroll in 02. It is naive to think that fans, particularly casual fans, will flock to the stadium and pack the house during a 6 week hot streak in late August -September. Those fans have been turned off for years, you don't turn on a switch and bring them back once the team starts winning.

If Dolan would have delivered on what he promised and spent when the time was right over the 06 off season, the team would have competed last year and the fans would have come back at near sellout levels.

Instead Dolan chose to continue to fund a low payroll, the team tanked, Dolan simply DIDN'T EARN THE LOYAL LOVING FANS BUSINESS.

Consigliere wrote:
If the Indians get on another run, none of that is happening again. For most fans, it is a "been there and done that" mentality with regard to the excitement with a potential playoff team. It no longer is as exciting as it was for many since we just experienced it 5-7 years ago. Also, Jacob's Field is entering its 14th season (wow) this year. The Browns are back. The Cavs are the hot ticket in town.


I've lived in this town most of my 52 years and KNOW THIS:

The northeastern Ohio sportsfan is a rabid breed. An owner who delivers a competitive product will be rewarded with a packed house and fans hanging from the rafters.

It took a while to pack the house in 95 when the Indians caught on as a real WS competitor. It will take a while for the fans to catch on to the Indians being competitive again.

Dolan has yet to do anything to bring the fans back to the ballpark. 6 weeks of a flash in the pan followed up by a tank job won't get it.

Win and prove to the fans you have a good team, they will come. 455 didn't happen by accident. It's a testament to one of the best fanbases in the world.

The house is not packed today because Dolan hasn't done his job.
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Re: A-Rod

Unread postby consigliere » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:05 pm

DGeneral wrote:Dolan drove away 2 million fans after the gutting of payroll in 02. It is naive to think that fans, particularly casual fans, will flock to the stadium and pack the house during a 6 week hot streak in late August -September. Those fans have been turned off for years, you don't turn on a switch and bring them back once the team starts winning.


Yes, Dolan pissed a lot of fans off. And, that apathy ain't going away. People have drawn their line in the sand with him, whether right or wrong.

But, it WAS a complete joke that the Indians had arguably the best team in baseball, in the thick of the greatest pennant race this town has ever seen and arguably the two most exciting months of baseball we have ever witnessed in the regular season.....and there was barely a spike in attendance.

The fans aren't coming back dude. The proof is in the pudding. Again, they may come back at some point to a 30K average per night, but that's it. I don't care if Dolan spends $200M on payroll, we are never sniffing anything ever close to 35K or more a night on average.

If Dolan would have delivered on what he promised and spent when the time was right over the 06 off season, the team would have competed last year and the fans would have come back at near sellout levels.


I always hate the "time is right" argument. It is so subjective. obviously, the fans took it as him saying "hey, I'll go out in FA and blow tons of cash on top FAs and inflate payroll bigtime. Now THAT is niave. Spending when the time is right was to follow the exact same model the Indians did in 93/94....which was spending on their core players and signing them to long-term deals and starting to supplement with complimentary FAs. In the 2002 and 2003 offseasons they didn't spend any money on anyone with a multi-year deal, and the most expensive players signed was Anderson at $1M. Going into 2005, they started spending by offering multi-year deals for the first time since 2002....Blake, Westbrook, Sabathia, Hafner, Martinez.....then last year Sizemore, Peralta, Lee....and in the middle of all that starting to spend some in FA on guys like Millwood, Byrd, etc.

It took a while to pack the house in 95 when the Indians caught on as a real WS competitor. It will take a while for the fans to catch on to the Indians being competitive again.


Not true. They were averaging almost 38-40K a night before the sellout streak officially started.

Win and prove to the fans you have a good team, they will come. 455 didn't happen by accident. It's a testament to one of the best fanbases in the world.


In other words, this town is full of front-running baseball fans.

This is hardly a good fanbase when it comes to baseball. Go to St. Louis or Chicago to see the Cubs....those are real fans. The same applies to the Cavaliers. This is a Browns town, and this city has a hard on for the Browns. No matter what the Browns do, 70K showup every week. As fo the Indians and Cavaliers, it is a popularity contest. There are some true die-hard baseball fans in this town (I'm one of them), but this is hardly one of the best baseball towns in baseball. That sellout streak has nothing to do with this town having great fans, but more a fanbase in need of an alternative when the Browns sucked and moved, the Cavs sucked, the city was in a renaissance, a new stadium, etc.
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Unread postby swerb » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:08 pm

I am in complete and full agreement with DGeneral here.

This town is starved for a winner, and has repeatedly, repeatedly showed that they will pack the house to support one.

If this team went to a WS, or strung B2B playoff appearances together, they would draw 35k a game, selling out all marquees and weekend games.

2005 was a two month hot streak. Even had the team been in contention all year, those games draw alot more people. That team got off to a horrid start, and the fans loathed the ownership group.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:22 pm

You guys are all crazy. :mrgreen:

Things are so much different now. The Indians have to compete with the Browns AND the Cavs when it comes to tickets....and both those teams are the hotter tickets in town. The Indians pretty much ran this town from 95-00 and were the only game in town.....not any longer.

I look back to 2001. We were still a perenniel playoff team, loaded with All-Stars, etc.....had the #1 payroll in team history of $92M which was almost $15M more than any other season....yet the sellout streak stopped that year. In fact, they didn't even sellout half their games that year (I believe the number was 35 or so sellouts). Fan interest was on the decline even before Dolan had his fire sale.

Guess we'll see what happens when the Indians go 130-32 this year and only 21K show up a night. :twisted:
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Unread postby sandlot33 » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:18 am

If you build it, they WILL come
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Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:54 am

The Browns have 70k plus in the seats no matter what they do for a reason. That being they only have 8 home games. If the Cavs and Tribe had only 8 home dates they could each play .300 ball and fill it every night. I'm not saying that football isn't king here, but you certainly can't compare cross/sport attendance to prove a point.

Sandlot it correct, if they win, attendance will not be a financial issue. They are never going on that sell-out streak again, but they will generate revenue. It all goes back to the earlier argument, which is, Dolan needs a sell-out streak to recoup the money he lost by making a bad deal. That's not going to happen.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:55 am

sandlot33 wrote:If you build it, they WILL come


Just a question....how is this current version of the Indians THAT much different from say the 1994 Indians? Those teams had a few more offensive stars, but of course this rotation destroys that 1994 version. People flocked to the stadium then, but aren't now. Gee, wonder why? :twisted:
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Unread postby swerb » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:05 am

Consigliere wrote:
sandlot33 wrote:If you build it, they WILL come


Just a question....how is this current version of the Indians THAT much different from say the 1994 Indians? Those teams had a few more offensive stars, but of course this rotation destroys that 1994 version. People flocked to the stadium then, but aren't now. Gee, wonder why? :twisted:

That's easy. The fan base is disenfranchised with the ownership. The '94 Indians had a brand new ballpark. The current team is coming off a 78-84 season. Eric Wedge.

Gammons, Olney ... what they think doesn't matter. Joe Fan, the guy that doesn't read message boards, the guy that follows the team leisurely .. the guy that attendance depends on (because all of us in here will attend regardless) ... that's the guy that doesn't buy in.

T, you're all wrapped up in the team, but step back from it all for a second.

This team was blown up, payroll cut in half. They are in year five of the rebuild with no playoffs, and coming off a 78-84 season. And regardless of whether or not its the right or wrong strategy, they failed to give any FA more than a one year deal.

Man, there's so many differences. That's an easy one to debunk.

This all said, if this team starts winning, the fans will come back. The precedent is there. Maybe not a sellout streak, but 35-37k a night. And Im not talking one WC appearance and a first round flameout. Im talking winning. B2B playoff berths, a WS appearance, etc.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:12 am

But that is the thing Rich, I HAVE taken a step back. I don't think most of the fans are being realistic. I see this mantra of "if we spend, the fans will come back" or "if we build it, they will return." I say hogwash on that.

Fans will come back, yes, but not nearly to the levels they once did. Attendance spikes from 24K average (now) to maybe 30K average (then). That is it. And, that is all I am saying.

And, there is absolutely no precedent. What happened in 94-00 cannot be considered since it was an extremely unique circumstance. It is like one of those situations where all the "right" conditions come together all at once for a once in a several lifetime event. All those conditions which helped (no Browns, stinky Cavs, no winning baseball in 40 years, young team, new ballpark, Cleveland renaissance, etc) in addition to winning are no longer existent. Now it is winning and winning alone that will be pretty much the only driving force to attract fans....and that my friends is not nearly enough.

The same thing will happen with the Cavaliers. Once we make a couple playoff runs, fans will start to get disinterested and you'll see attendance decline. Even with Lebron here. Fans in this town are fickle with the Indians and Cavs, and that is just the way it is when it is clearly a football town.
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Unread postby Dozen » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:30 pm

When they become more consistant, the attendace will follow. When the got hot in the late 80's the muni was packed. Same with Richfield in the 80's. People are just really hesitant to believe this is a championship calibur team. There are only so many times you can stick your head out of a hole and get whacked before you stop sticking it out.
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Re: A-Rod

Unread postby DGeneral » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:43 pm

Consigliere wrote:Yes, Dolan pissed a lot of fans off. And, that apathy ain't going away. People have drawn their line in the sand with him, whether right or wrong.

But, it WAS a complete joke that the Indians had arguably the best team in baseball, in the thick of the greatest pennant race this town has ever seen and arguably the two most exciting months of baseball we have ever witnessed in the regular season.....and there was barely a spike in attendance.

The fans aren't coming back dude.


Blaming the fans is a very dangerous position, expecially if you own the team. Fans are paying customers and they are always right. It doesn't matter what kind of fans they are. Rabid hardcore baseball junkies or Yuppie no nothing fans pay Dolan's bills. Ticket sales are ticket sales. The 20K that noticed in Sept 05 were probably the hardcores. It's the owner's job to win the fans business. Dolan has yet to do that because this team has had 4 of 5 losings seasons, no recognizable star talent until recently as core players mature.

You cite that Dolan isn't going to fund a Yankee payroll. No one expects him to . What fans do expect is to at least try and show that you want to win. Name a player that Dolan has signed to a multi year contract making 8 figure annual income. Name a frontline FA talent that Dolan has signed since Oct 01.

Why didn't Dolan splurge this winter on a Soriano or another impact talent via trade. Why didn't he resign Millwood or Howry last winter to try and maintain one of the best pitching staffs in the league.? What do you think the prospects are of Dolan extendind Westbrook? CC? Hafner?

He hasn't paid that kind of money in the past, why would he ever start now?

Dolan blew his wad the first 2 years which brought him to the brink of solvency. He's been trying to recover ever since. He doesn't have the pockets to be an mlb owner. A real duck out of water.

First you build it, then they come. Dolan has yet to build anything so the fans ain't coming. To say the fans are lost and not returning is underestimating the sleeping giant in this town. Fans will support a winner is droves. Dolan has done nothing to bring this sleeping giant back to pack the house.
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Unread postby sandlot33 » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:11 pm

I guarentee if the Tribe is in the playoff hunt at the break, the 2nd half of the season will be like the old days, maybe not selling out every night, but they will sell out a lot of games and will pack the Jake. The team has a ton of talent top to bottom, but the problem is when we sign scrap metal free agents and start the season in the tank of course no one is going to go watch them. But if they start hot and continue to be in the playoff hunt the whole year it will be a totaly different story. That excitement for the club will come back, and when it does I will be there waiting
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Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:33 am

If you build it, they will come?

Sincerely,
The Atlanta Braves

Seriously though. After 2005, I have to agree with Consig. The Tribe's the third hottest ticket in town, and no amount of wins is going to put them over Lebron and the Browns. The '90's are over, and the best the Tribe can aim for now is to compete like the A's and Twins.
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Unread postby DGeneral » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:20 am

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:If you build it, they will come?

Sincerely,
The Atlanta Braves

Seriously though. After 2005, I have to agree with Consig. The Tribe's the third hottest ticket in town, and no amount of wins is going to put them over Lebron and the Browns. The '90's are over, and the best the Tribe can aim for now is to compete like the A's and Twins.


You are justifying Dolan funding a continuous low payroll and blaming the fans for not supporting his crappy product.

Dolan loves you.

The truth is that if any owner, like the astute Jacobs, delivers a bonifide WS contender, The supportive fans of NE will pack the house. This is proven. I reject the lame excuses of a "depressed economy", pure rubbish.

The same hunger for a title resides in NE Ohio baseball fans as it does with die hard Browns fans. A six week flash in the pan good product will not get the attention of the casual fans that Dolan needs to pack his house.

Dolan needs to supply a legit WS contender product. If that happened, he would surely win the fans business at high attendance levels.
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Unread postby Jumbo » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:34 am

I could be responding to everybody or nobody, but I wanted to take another angle. Loooking at the three "key variables" from year to year:

1988: 78-84, $7.8M payroll, 1.4M attendance
1989: 73-89, $8.9M, 1.3M
1990: 77-85, $15.1M, 1.2M
1991: 57-105, $18.2M, 1.0M
1992: 76-86, $8.2M, 1.2M
1993: 76-86, $15.7M, 2.2M(*)
1994: 66-47, $28.5M, 2.0M (2.9M averaged out to a full season)
1995: 100-44, $35.2M, 2.8M (3.2M averaged out to a full season)
...etc.

The irony, I think, is that even considering whatever ire the local fanbase has towards Dolan, Shapiro, Wedge, or whomever, the recent attendance of 1.7 - 2.0M is still fundamentally higher than equivalent attendance in the late 80s and early 90s. (You could go back even further, to which attendance falls consistently into the low million and even into the hundreds of thousands, but that's beside the point.)

Reasons for that? I'd say Jacobs Field is significant, as is a general increase in the popularity of baseball. (Long-term economic growth is balanced by rising ticket prices.) But, I think what's also a factor is that the lasting impact that of the 90s Indians, namely, that the Indians *can* win - a factor that just didn't exist in the late 80s.

To put it another way, if you asked the average Joe Fan in, say, 1989 whether the Indians could compete for the World Series, you might get a "Yes" rate of 5%. The same question asked in 1995-2001 would be 80-100%, depending on the year. In the Dolan era, it may have dropped back, but it's still significantly greater than 5%.

(*) This is skewed somewhat by the 210K who watched the last series, and probably several thousand more who couldn't get tickets for those games but still wanted to go one last time - like the ~90K who went to the preceding Milwaukee Brewers series. Still, I think there was some increase due to increasing interest in the team, even if the young talent had not yet translated into wins.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:25 am

In my opinion the Indians and Dolan have a bit of a fractured way of thinking. This whole "if you fill the seats we'll spend more money" deal. That's not the way it works. People don't routinely buy crappy products in hopes that the producer will take the customers money and improve future products. This is especially true at the start of "the plan".

Again, this type of miscalculation might have been forced by the poor business deal Dolan made, but it's not my fault. I shouldn't be played for a fool. Get a consistent good product, then gripe about attendance.
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Unread postby DGeneral » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:03 am

Lead Pipe wrote:Get a consistent good product, then gripe about attendance.


That's the concept.

In Dolan's restaurant, he's serving customers a plate of stale dog food and charging them grade A steak prices and complaining about no one patronizing his establishment.

The Dolan's are clueless about marketing and sales.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:59 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:In my opinion the Indians and Dolan have a bit of a fractured way of thinking. This whole "if you fill the seats we'll spend more money" deal. That's not the way it works. People don't routinely buy crappy products in hopes that the producer will take the customers money and improve future products. This is especially true at the start of "the plan".

Again, this type of miscalculation might have been forced by the poor business deal Dolan made, but it's not my fault. I shouldn't be played for a fool. Get a consistent good product, then gripe about attendance.


Of course, the fans filled the seats for Jacob's before he went out and spent gobs of cash. DEAD LAST in MLB in payroll in 1992, and as attendance increased in the final year at the Muni in 1993 and the spike in 1994, payroll went up.

This is what makes me laugh out loud....tis mentality that Dolan should spend first and the fans will come and that Dick Jacob's is some folk hero.....
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Unread postby sandlot33 » Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:10 am

it's not that he needs to spend per say, just that we want a winning team. However the hell he does it, thats all we want
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Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:30 am

Consigliere wrote:
Lead Pipe wrote:In my opinion the Indians and Dolan have a bit of a fractured way of thinking. This whole "if you fill the seats we'll spend more money" deal. That's not the way it works. People don't routinely buy crappy products in hopes that the producer will take the customers money and improve future products. This is especially true at the start of "the plan".

Again, this type of miscalculation might have been forced by the poor business deal Dolan made, but it's not my fault. I shouldn't be played for a fool. Get a consistent good product, then gripe about attendance.


Of course, the fans filled the seats for Jacob's before he went out and spent gobs of cash. DEAD LAST in MLB in payroll in 1992, and as attendance increased in the final year at the Muni in 1993 and the spike in 1994, payroll went up.

This is what makes me laugh out loud....tis mentality that Dolan should spend first and the fans will come and that Dick Jacob's is some folk hero.....


Your making an incorrect inference if you believe I implied Jacobs is some sort of hero. He was here at the right time, (the unique circumstances you listed previously) and then found his sucker.

As far as Dolan spending first, I'll set aside that chicken or egg argument for a second to say the main difference is that Dolan/Shapiro were shouting from the mountian tops about needing people in the seats. In my opinon, not a good strategy at not the right time.

Lastly, Consig, since it makes you laugh out loud, at what point do you think a team's attendance increases the most A. When they put a mediocre product on the field B. When the owner spends a lot of money C. When the team gets better.

Your a stats guy, look at the history of the league and show me the cases where the attendance increased before the team started to win. Than list the 9 zillion cases where the increase occured after.

That unique situation that happened a few years back, well, your right it's not happening again. So, now they are going to have to do it like everyone else. Win and get fans, not get fans and win.
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Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:27 am

DGeneral wrote:You are justifying Dolan funding a continuous low payroll and blaming the fans for not supporting his crappy product.

Dolan loves you.


No, I'm explaining why Dolan funds a relatively low payroll and why that's the fault of the inequities of the baseball market. Please try to keep up.

By the way, if Dolan loves me, then Steinbrenner loves fans like you.

The truth is that if any owner, like the astute Jacobs, delivers a bonifide WS contender, The supportive fans of NE will pack the house.


Just like they did when the team got hot at the end of 2005. Errrr-

This is proven. I reject the lame excuses of a "depressed economy", pure rubbish.


Its not a "depressed economy", its simple market economics.

This is Cleveland. We are, and always have been - regardless of what Bud Selig and the mediots might say - a small market. In a free agent non-salary cap environment, we're Geraci's Bi-Rite up against the Wal-Mart Yankees. Jacobs' "astuteness" consisted of building a team that got hot just as the Browns left town, which allowed him to sell off the team to Dolan at an inflated cost. If you think that somehow that perfect storm is going to hit town again, I'm sure there's a position for you where ever Jane Campbell is working at these days.

The same hunger for a title resides in NE Ohio baseball fans as it does with die hard Browns fans. A six week flash in the pan good product will not get the attention of the casual fans that Dolan needs to pack his house.


Funny that you mention the Browns. There's a team unarguably sucking worse than the Tribe, and yet somehow Joe Clevelandfan has no problem with packing CBS every Sunday. Hell, the Tribe has been to more World Championships in the past forty years, and yet they still can't outdraw the Browns!

Dolan needs to supply a legit WS contender product. If that happened, he would surely win the fans business at high attendance levels.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/attend.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/attend.shtml

Two teams from smaller Cleveland-sized markets.
EDIT: Two teams that are also, arguably, primarily football towns.
Two teams with recent runs of better success than the Wahoos.
Two teams with craptacular attendance.
I don't think so, Tim.
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Unread postby DGeneral » Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:34 am

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote: No, I'm explaining why Dolan funds a relatively low payroll and why that's the fault of the inequities of the baseball market. Please try to keep up.

By the way, if Dolan loves me, then Steinbrenner loves fans like you.


You are offering the same lame excuse for Dolan funding one of the lowest payrolls in the league for the fifth straight year. Fans don't expect Dolan to spend like Steinbrenner, they do expect him to spend close to his direct competiton of Minnesota, Detroit, and Chicago

Just like they did when the team got hot at the end of 2005. Errrr-


6 weeks of aberrational play does not erase no playoffs in 5 years and 4 of 5 losing seasons. If you think it does, you are easy to please and Dolan does love you.

Its not a "depressed economy", its simple market economics.

This is Cleveland. We are, and always have been - regardless of what Bud Selig and the mediots might say - a small market. In a free agent non-salary cap environment, we're Geraci's Bi-Rite up against the Wal-Mart Yankees. Jacobs' "astuteness" consisted of building a team that got hot just as the Browns left town, which allowed him to sell off the team to Dolan at an inflated cost. If you think that somehow that perfect storm is going to hit town again, I'm sure there's a position for you where ever Jane Campbell is working at these days.


More lame excuses to poormouth and front for Dolan running one of the lowest payrolls in baseball, even after the rebuild is over.

Funny that you mention the Browns. There's a team unarguably sucking worse than the Tribe, and yet somehow Joe Clevelandfan has no problem with packing CBS every Sunday. Hell, the Tribe has been to more World Championships in the past forty years, and yet they still can't outdraw the Browns!


This area is the cradle of football, it will always be a football town first. It would become a baseball town like it did during the era of champions in the 90s. The fans of NE Ohio have nothing to prove, If an astute owner supplies a championship caliber product, the fans will support it in droves.

Dolan's record the past 5 years has been dismal. There is a direct cause and effect of low payroll-low performance and low attendance. It's a very simple concept. If a business owner wants to have good sales, he must supply a product that people are willing to buy. Dolan needs to invest at least $75-80m in payroll to add 1-2 impact talents of simply just lock up CC -Hafner to prove that he is serious about keeping a core of players and pursuing a championship. Iltch has done this. Dolan has been a miserable failure.
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