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Would you have made this deal?

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Would you have made this deal?

Unread postby Dozen » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:03 pm

The Boston Red Sox reportedly were willing to trade Ramirez for Crowe, Adam Miller and Fausto Carmona. They are the top three prospects in the Indians minor-league system.

“My agent called me and told me that,” Crowe said. “I told him, ‘Just let me go get ready for the season.’ ”

The deal never happened because Indians General Manager Mark Shapiro felt the cost was too high. Crowe now is preparing for spring training in February, where he will attend camp with the big-leaguers. He’s in Cleveland now working out in the team’s winter development program


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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:06 pm

Absolutely no way.

I do Carmona/Crowe and some low level prospect.....but no am I giving up my top two starting pitching options in the minors, two guys who will be anchoring this staff very soon.
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Unread postby sandlot33 » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:07 pm

no....if it happened there would be no way we would sign sabathia or hafner long term...I would rather have one of them more than ramirez
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:13 pm

sandlot33 wrote:no....if it happened there would be no way we would sign sabathia or hafner long term...I would rather have one of them more than ramirez


Good point.....and add to that, since you have no way to sign Sabathia long-term, you also lose your top two replacements for him in Miller and Carmona. A double whammy.

I'm fine with dealing off Carmona, Crowe and something lesser.....but no way am I giving them our top 3 prospects for Manny. And, obviously the asking price is ridiculous as other teams have scoffed at the Red Sox demands.
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Unread postby Dozen » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:18 pm

no....if it happened there would be no way we would sign sabathia or hafner long term...I would rather have one of them more than ramirez


This just in.......thats not gonna happen anyways.

but no am I giving up my top two starting pitching options in the minors, two guys who will be anchoring this staff very soon.


I see a pattern of mediocrity. If they are a top 5 team and your lacking a true RH stick then I'd do it. I'm not interested in what 2 minor leaguers are gonna do 2-4 years from now. That may be a lil crazy to a minor league follower, but you have to agree the window of any chance in winning anything is close to being shut.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:24 pm

Dozen wrote:I see a pattern of mediocrity. If they are a top 5 team and your lacking a true RH stick then I'd do it.


Not right now. Maybe if the need is there mid-season I consider it....and by then, the asking price will be a lot less for a RHed bat, even Manny if available then.

I'm not interested in what 2 minor leaguers are gonna do 2-4 years from now. That may be a lil crazy to a minor league follower, but you have to agree the window of any chance in winning anything is close to being shut.


I disagree. The window has just opened. The window with Hafner, Westbrook and Sabathia guaranteed to be on this team is two more years.....but the window with the rest of this team with players like Grady, Vic, Barfield, Sowers, Lee, etc is for another 4-5 years.
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Unread postby Dozen » Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:26 pm

I guess we shall see, I can see this playing out like when they wouldnt trade Wright and Giles for Randy Johnson or the deal for Pedro.
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Unread postby pup » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:13 pm

As the poster boy for "The Cleveland Indians need a RH bat" campaign, I would have to answer this trade proposal from the Red Sox with a big "Go choke on your world series rings you idiotic pieces of regurgitated pig vomit."

There is no freaking way you trade all three of those guys for a right handed bat, unless his last name is Pujols AND his first name is Vlad.
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Unread postby Dozen » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:20 pm

I dunno Pup, I'd hate to give all that up BUT................ I also have seen a ton of "prospects" never pan out as well.
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Unread postby pup » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:57 am

Crowe and Miller are both guys that don't fit into the "not panning out" scenerio at this point. Wether they become stars or not, I don't know, but both will play in the Majors, have at least some success and help the Tribe.

I really like Carmona. I don't know what it is, but I see something in him that I don't see in most Cleveland robots, errrr, players. He has some flair, some emotion. As soon as he can get soewhere in between a Wedgebot and a spaz, he will be very good. I love his stuff. He should really settle in this year, and be ready to step into the rotation as soon as needed, which is hopefully for Byrd and sooner rather than later.

By the way, Manny is my all time favorite Indian and I would not come close to considering moving all 3 of those guys for him, or anyone else.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:03 pm

I like Carmona as well, but man, they couldn't have possibly scrambled that guy's head anymore than they did last year. Pathetic. This trade is a nonsense rumor. I will say this, there isn't one young pitcher you can keep completely out of the not panning out category until they get a ceratin amount of innings on their arm. Huge, ble chip position players have a much higher succes rate than huge, blue chip pitching prospects because of the injury factor. And it's not close.
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Unread postby ACrank » Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:50 pm

No way do I do this trade. Not even close.

Any two out of the three of them and a low level prospect I might consider. But that is goo much to give up for a guy who quit on his team last year, and who, after ten plus years, is still a hitting idiot savant.

Here is the other thing - I am not completely convinced Boston was serious in their efforts to move Manny. It seems every trade rumor I read involving Manny usually ends up with the other team saying, "Thats just a bit too much." (The one that comes to mind is the rumored trade to the LA Angels involving Chone Figgins, Santana and a few other players.) The reported trades seem more like Boston saying, "Well we said we would put Manny on the block. Lets make our demands so ridicoulous that either we get "stuck" with Manny or we get enough back that the trade will make our team better for years on end. Either way we win."

So I really think, if that rumor was true at all, it was done by Boston with the complete belief that there would be no way the Indians would accept that offer.

Manny Ramirez will retire as a Boston RedSox.
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Unread postby DGeneral » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:59 pm

No way do I do this trade. Not even close.

Any two out of the three of them and a low level prospect I might consider. But that is goo much to give up for a guy who quit on his team last year, and who, after ten plus years, is still a hitting idiot savant.

Here is the other thing - I am not completely convinced Boston was serious in their efforts to move Manny. It seems every trade rumor I read involving Manny usually ends up with the other team saying, "Thats just a bit too much." (The one that comes to mind is the rumored trade to the LA Angels involving Chone Figgins, Santana and a few other players.) The reported trades seem more like Boston saying, "Well we said we would put Manny on the block. Lets make our demands so ridicoulous that either we get "stuck" with Manny or we get enough back that the trade will make our team better for years on end. Either way we win."

So I really think, if that rumor was true at all, it was done by Boston with the complete belief that there would be no way the Indians would accept that offer.

Manny Ramirez will retire as a Boston RedSox.


Epstein is a shrewd GM with a championship under his belt.. He probably felt he would dangle a RH bat, who is popular in Cleveland, at Shapiro and fleece him. Shapiro was taken on part of the Marte deal by taking the stiff Mota instead of Delcarman. Epstein views Shapiro as easy pickings, why not try to exploit Shapiro's limitations a second time.
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Unread postby Dozen » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:23 pm

I seen an interview yesterday with Peter Gammons, he said the Red Sox FO refers to Crowe as Ty Cobb :eek :shock:
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Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:53 pm

Is this the same FO that signed Jason Johnson last year?
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Unread postby Dozen » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:07 pm

That signing doesnt change the fact they have a solid FO. It's not like they tried to spin it into some great pickup or anything. I just didnt realize Crowe was that highly regarded around the league.
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Unread postby ACrank » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:31 pm

DGeneral wrote:
No way do I do this trade. Not even close.

Any two out of the three of them and a low level prospect I might consider. But that is goo much to give up for a guy who quit on his team last year, and who, after ten plus years, is still a hitting idiot savant.

Here is the other thing - I am not completely convinced Boston was serious in their efforts to move Manny. It seems every trade rumor I read involving Manny usually ends up with the other team saying, "Thats just a bit too much." (The one that comes to mind is the rumored trade to the LA Angels involving Chone Figgins, Santana and a few other players.) The reported trades seem more like Boston saying, "Well we said we would put Manny on the block. Lets make our demands so ridicoulous that either we get "stuck" with Manny or we get enough back that the trade will make our team better for years on end. Either way we win."

So I really think, if that rumor was true at all, it was done by Boston with the complete belief that there would be no way the Indians would accept that offer.

Manny Ramirez will retire as a Boston RedSox.


Epstein is a shrewd GM with a championship under his belt.. He probably felt he would dangle a RH bat, who is popular in Cleveland, at Shapiro and fleece him. Shapiro was taken on part of the Marte deal by taking the stiff Mota instead of Delcarman. Epstein views Shapiro as easy pickings, why not try to exploit Shapiro's limitations a second time.


Not just Shapiro, Dgen, but I am sure you don't realize it.

(Another forum gone down the tubes.)
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Unread postby DGeneral » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:39 am


Not just Shapiro, Dgen, but I am sure you don't realize it.

(Another forum gone down the tubes.)


Didn't say it was just Shapiro. Epstein will exploit those GM's who he's fleeced before because history tends to repeat itself. Epstein/Shapiro are a good example of 2 young GM's in contrast : success and failure.

My views are welcome on this board, if that bothers you then you can do what you've done on the other boards.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:36 am

My views are welcome on this board, if that bothers you then you can do what you've done on the other boards.


Can't we all just get along :cry :cry: :mrgreen:

Epstein/Shapiro are a good example of 2 young GM's in contrast : success and failure.


For one season, yes Epstein was wildly succesful. He is also the same man who decided Johnny Damon was not worth keeping, then turned around and gave JD Drew Damon's money. The reason he is trying to fleece other GM's is because he was fleeced for Anibel Sanchez, Hanley Ramirez and Freddy Sanchez over the last couple seasons. For all the great moves Epstein made to win a World Series, he has done the exact opposite in every move since.

Shapiro has his ego thing that I can't get over, but overall calling Theo the Brat a genius and Shapiro a stiff is slightly off.

DGeneral, you are a welcomed addition to these boards!
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Unread postby DGeneral » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:55 am


Shapiro has his ego thing that I can't get over, but overall calling Theo the Brat a genius and Shapiro a stiff is slightly off.

DGeneral, you are a welcomed addition to these boards!


Shapiro is arrogant and smug. He does not have the performance to back it up. He is mediocre at best. Epstein might have a similar personality but he does have the performance to back it up. He's won a championship with talent he's assembled and made the playoffs most every year he's been GM. Shapiro isn't close to that record in playoff appearances and talent assembled.

Shapiro is a stiff compared to Epstein IMO. That's why Epstein knows he can try and fleece him.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:52 am

Shapiro is arrogant and smug


Agree. 100%, no doubt.

Epstein might have a similar personality but he does have the performance to back it up. He's won a championship with talent he's assembled and made the playoffs most every year he's been GM. Shapiro isn't close to that record in playoff appearances and talent assembled.


I also agree with this to a point. However, I will say the deck is stacked against Shapiro, at least slightly. I think this is the first offseason he had the budget to make a difference on this team. I am not overly excited about what he did, but I am not steadfast that it was the wrong approach. Shapiro almost must compete in a better division, top to bottom. Shapiro has the tougher job.

I do not believe there will be a 2008 in Cleveland for Mark. His intentions are pretty obvious to me. Dolan knows he is leaving, that is why there is the lack of long term signings. The new GM will be the one responsible for filling in the holes long term. Shapiro wants his resume to either be: look at all the hidden gems I found or look I had no money to work with. He wins either way.
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Unread postby DGeneral » Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:42 pm

I do not believe there will be a 2008 in Cleveland for Mark. His intentions are pretty obvious to me. Dolan knows he is leaving, that is why there is the lack of long term signings. The new GM will be the one responsible for filling in the holes long term. Shapiro wants his resume to either be: look at all the hidden gems I found or look I had no money to work with. He wins either way.


I strongly disagree with you assessment of Shapiro's future. After this season and the eminent tank job, Shapiro's resume will be stained beyond repair. His devotion to his turkey manager, his poor judge of talent, his mishandling of young players like Phillips, Baez, Carmona and now Garko will all come home to roost. He will also have 6 straight season of no playoffs, plenty of time in a rebuild cycle.

Dolan will gladly extend Shapiro, it will be the only job offer he will get and Dolan should be thrilled with Shapiro's performance. He's kept the payroll low while delivering a teasing mediocre product.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:10 pm

strongly disagree with you assessment of Shapiro's future. After this season and the eminent tank job, Shapiro's resume will be stained beyond repair.


GM's get recycled more than newspapers. If his 2007 is as bad as you think it will be, Dolan will let him go, and Shapiro will want to leave. Dolan has a whole crop of FO that can follow Shapiro's lead. Philips was a disaster. Baez was a stif while here and has proven to be a stiff whenever he has been on a good team. He is excellent with bad teams/no expectations. Mental Midget if you will. Carmona will be fine. I don't think it was his idea to move him to the closer role. Garko will be hard to get over, but I don't think there is a lot to attack there, since Garko CANNOT play a position. Catching the ball is pretty important.

He's kept the payroll low while delivering a teasing mediocre product.


Hey, that's my line :thumright:
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Unread postby DGeneral » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:43 pm

I do not believe there will be a 2008 in Cleveland for Mark. His intentions are pretty obvious to me. Dolan knows he is leaving, that is why there is the lack of long term signings. The new GM will be the one responsible for filling in the holes long term. Shapiro wants his resume to either be: look at all the hidden gems I found or look I had no money to work with. He wins either way.


The Dolans are devoted to their boy Shapiro:

http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/we ... tml#234376

They want lock him up for another extension. Shapiro is a perfect fit for the Dolans, he is an outstanding spin Doctor and does an excellent job of fronting the discount operation he's been ordered to implement.
Shapiro has performed well in the eyes of the Dolans. He's delivered the "joy" of a 500 club. Payroll is low. No long term deals with serious dollars committed. A club good enough to tease a critical mass of attendance. A club just low enough in the standings to collect league welfare revenue sharing that the Dolans can pocket.

Life is good in Dolanville with Shapiro at the helm. Dolan's bank account is getting fatter as he recoups his losses incurred on the purchase of the team.

Yes, the Dolan's are totally devoted to their boy Shapiro and his turkey manager.

Time to extend them both and perpetuate the mediocrity...

Woe is tribe fan.
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Unread postby pup » Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:53 am

Quick, someone get me some Kool-Aid.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:53 pm

A few things.

1.) The Boston rumor of Manny for Crowe, Carmona and Miller is 100% legit. Shapiro, Dolan and others have already validated it.

2.) Whether or not you value prospects, you simply cannot give up that much frontline young talent. Especially talent in the upper levels which has already proven itself to a degree. I mean, giving up those three would be like the Browns giving up their 1st round picks in the 2007, 2008, and 2009 drafts so they could get LaDanian Tomlinson. I'd love the guy, but that is TOO steep for one player.

3.) Manny is not the difference make we need, and therefore, we shouldn't be overpaying to get him. We were a top 5 offense without him the last three years....and we'll likely continue to be a top 5 offense. He'd be a great addition as he fills a need for a RH power bat, but I'd wait it out on him....maybe by the trade deadline Boston makes more sense in their trade demands.

4.) Manny is my favorite player of all-time, and I want him back.....but the deal still needs to make sense.

5.) Shapiro is a good GM. He makes some mistakes, makes some assinine decisions, etc....but overall he is an excellent communicator and does very good considering the situation he were in. I'd bet the feeling would be a lot different, and the results much different, if Shapiro were in Boston and Epstein were in Cleveland.
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Unread postby DGeneral » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:17 pm

4.) Manny is my favorite player of all-time, and I want him back.....but the deal still needs to make sense.

5.) Shapiro is a good GM. He makes some mistakes, makes some assinine decisions, etc....but overall he is an excellent communicator and does very good considering the situation he were in. I'd bet the feeling would be a lot different, and the results much different, if Shapiro were in Boston and Epstein were in Cleveland.


Certainly agree about passing on Ramirez for the asking price. At least Shapiro was not stupid enough to get fleeced again by the shrewd Epstein. When Ramirez was an Indian he was my favorite player also. When he walks to the enemy though as the Godfather stated: " He is nothing to me". Just another flake superstar.

Disagree about Shapiro, he is mediocre at best. For every good move he's made, he's followed it up with a putrid move. He's done nothing exciting since the Colon trade. No bold moves, just accumulating low rent journeyman. This off season was a prime example. Dellucci, Borwoski, Hernandez Fultz... What the hell is that? Unimpressive.

The only sniff of a bold action was the Marte trade last year. At least he had a set of balls to roll the dice on a high end prospect. Too bad the deal was tainted when Epstein pawned off the stiff Mota on us. Shapiro should have demanded and held out for Delcarmen, another miss. Shapiro has too many Brady Andersons, Lawton, Ricky G, Boones on his resume. His W-L record shows his talent evaluation skills - mediocre.

I also disagree regarding trading places with ownerships for Epstein - Shapiro. Epstein went out and got good talent when he won the WS. He built that team and made them a perennial contender. Shapiro is not as good in evaluating talent. He'd be eaten alive in surly caldron of the Beantown media.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:26 pm

FWIW, Epstein hardly got the best of Shapiro in the Marte-Crisp deal....in fact, even though the trade hasn't bore much fruit for either team at this point, the Indians are on the plus side of the ledger on this one with Marte and Shoppach while Boston only has Crisp left from that deal.

If you were to rank GMs, Shapiro would probably be in the #8-12 range of the 30 GMs in baseball.
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