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Shapiro Needs To Believe....

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Shapiro Needs To Believe....

Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:34 am

I agree. He should be going into this season with Matt Miller, Rafael Perez, and Tom Mastny in the bullpen instead of Kieth Foulke, Aaron Fultz and Roberto Hernandz.
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Unread postby swerb » Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:17 am

I disagree with that.

The more arms the better. If the some of the vet relievers they signed get hurt, or fall victim to the effects of Father Time, you have a stable of 5-6 relatively promising young relievers in Buffalo to pick the hottest one(s) from.

I liked the Indians off-season, given what was available. I would have liked to have seen them give the multiple years to Speier and Moises Alou to get them here, but now that its all said and done, Im happy.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:45 am

I actually have no problems with the bullpen decisions.....it is the position players he always seems to screw with. While I believe Garko is a virtual lock to make the team, he still will only be a bench guy for the most part. Also, I may have not signed Nixon and just gone with Choo.

I know that if Nixon fails, you can just dump him and bring in Choo....so there is depth there. But, we saw how much of a negative effect a player (Jason Johnson) can have on the team when he is hear for just 2 months. I give Nixon April, and then we see where we are at.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:52 am

Just busting balls fellas.

I still think they overspent on marginal bullpen talent. I have more confidence in the young bullpen arms than some of the young position players. I think they are going to kick themselves for not bringing in a right handed power bat to protect Pronk.

I can't really fault them for feeling the need to sign guys for the bullpen, after last year's debacle, but I think they tend to go overboard. It is kind of like saying we have no idea what to expect, so let's bring in everyone we can and hope for the best.
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Unread postby swerb » Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:53 pm

It is kind of like saying we have no idea what to expect, so let's bring in everyone we can and hope for the best.

I think thats exactly what they're saying.

The more shit you throw against the wall, the more you will get to stick.

And yeah, maybe they overpaid, but who gives a shit? It's not my money. Per Forbes, the Indians were the most profitable team in baseball in 2005, and made even more money last year.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:05 pm

And yeah, maybe they overpaid, but who gives a shit? It's not my money. Per Forbes, the Indians were the most profitable team in baseball in 2005, and made even more money last year.



I am not complaining about them spending money!!!!!!!!! I just think there were other areas of need that went untouched so we could bring in excess in one area.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:48 pm

FWIW, they did try pretty hard to get a RHed bat to protect Hafner and Sizemore. Ellis Burks aluded to it here:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/ma ... 63184.html

BURKS: That it's nothing personal when you don't re-sign a player. I couldn't understand that when I first got involved in baseball. Why are they talking about trading me? Why are they talking about releasing this guy? But it's a business--it's all about the bottom line. We gave you this much on the budget, we have to get the right personnel. We definitely would love to have gotten a righthanded bat to complement Travis Hafner and Grady Sizemore. And the market wasn't as plentiful as it has been in the past.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:05 pm

If you were a pitcher, what would be your three most important body parts to stay healthy. Keith Foulke has had PERSISTENT elbow, back and knee problems. Good luck for 162 with those.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:37 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:If you were a pitcher, what would be your three most important body parts to stay healthy. Keith Foulke has had PERSISTENT elbow, back and knee problems. Good luck for 162 with those.


Of which were Bob Howry's problems for a few years before he signed here. Sometimes guys get healthy, sometimes they don't. We'll see.

Personally, I am not worried about it. I'd actually be more worried if we didn't have Foulke (and Borowski)......but what I like is with Foulke and Borowski we are sort of insuring ourselves if one gets hurt. If they both get hurt, which is possible, I will feel more confident in some of the young arms by then (I'm assuming both Borowki/Foulke wouldn't get hurt in ST....knock on wood....)
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I like what Shapiro has done

Unread postby ramllov » Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:36 pm

Hey I am all for the young players playing. In fact, they will. However some of them are not starting in Cleveland in April.

These guys will eventually be playing in Cleveland in 2007. The addition of these free agents give the Indians experience depth. In fact, some playoff experience.

The Indians have a two year window with Westbrook and Sabathia. They have to win in 2007 and 2008. If these guys are gone, their best window could be gone. Westbrook, could leave in 2007 in a trade if he is not resigned.

The relief veterans are a good move. They talk about if two or three of these guys are healthy at the same time this year. The team has depth and young arms ready. The young guys will continue to develop and get better as the old veterans play.

This is all good stuff.

Hey I want Garko starting at first base the first day of April. However, my name is not Shapiro nor am I the general manager.

He is asked to win now and he will going to do what it will take. Everyone is getting tired of reasons why they are not winning.
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Unread postby ACrank » Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:19 pm

I'd still rather see the young kids over Betancourt and even Davis - i question the need of Betancourt if he isn't going to develop into a closer (in that way he reminds me of David Riske - great 6-7th inning type, but surely they can find a young arm to do it as well and break them in that way), and i am borderline on feeling the same way about Davis.

I do agree that the Indians went overboard, and even though they are "mediorcre" talents at least the Indians aren't going to be saddled with them for a number of years.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:08 pm

I think Betancourt is pretty valuable.....he is a solid righty in the pen that we have locked up for the next 3 years.

I may, though, be willing to offer him up in a trade. If things work out okay in the bullpen, the Indians have the potential to offer up a couple good right-handers as trade bait come June/July (Betancourt, Borowski, Hernandez, etc).
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Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:20 pm

Betancourt is usually pretty good when he doesn't need to pitch 13 straight days out of the pen. If you look at the stretches he's struggled, it is usually after a lot of use. So, in the second half, when all 12 bad relievers the Indians acquired in the off season are either hurt or ineffective, that's when you'd need to keep an eye on him.
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Unread postby DGeneral » Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:19 pm

Betancourt is usually pretty good when he doesn't need to pitch 13 straight days out of the pen. If you look at the stretches he's struggled, it is usually after a lot of use. So, in the second half, when all 12 bad relievers the Indians acquired in the off season are either hurt or ineffective, that's when you'd need to keep an eye on him.


Wedge has made a habit if overusing relievers that are getting people out. Betancourt was forced on the DL in 04 when turds Jimenez and Stewart were useless and Betancourt was pitching 2 innings every day.

Betancourt has been consistent and reliable for 3 years. A rarity among relievers. Glad Shapiro was smart enough to bring him back.
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