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Season Heading south already

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Season Heading south already

Unread postby DGeneral » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:43 pm

I'm not impressed with the Indians acquisitions over the winter. No impact talent was added to take this team to the next level. This team is also saddled with the liability of a "limited" manager who is not capable of prevailing in a tight pennant race against his peers.

Wedge should have been dispatched after failing to keep pace with the demands of his position. His tactical expertise is poor. He manages by reaction. He warms no relievers and waits to long to change pitchers after the toothpaste is out of the tube. Little bunting, hit and run, squeeze, stealing, all the things necessary to manufacture runs in a close game. Sloppy base running, lethargic unmotivated play were hallmarks of the Wedge team last year. This team will not make the playoffs with Wedge as manager. One of the few good things that happened this summer is the hiring of Showalter. Showalter is an aggressive take charge guy that is power hungry. Look for him to quickly undermine the feeble Wedge and take his job by the end of the year.

The 4 relievers added are tired, broken down, journeyman that are a crapshoot. Borowski has had limited success as a closer, nowhere near the success of Wickman. He could be damaged goods as Philly passed on him with a suspected bum shoulder. Hernadez is old as dirt, coming off knee surgery. Who knows if he has anything left. Fultz looks to be another version of Scott Stewart, a lefty from the NL that didn't foolz anyone. Foulke is coming off surgeries, has lost velocity and movement on his sub 90mph fastball. This bullpen is very suspect IMO.

The corner OF are a kluge of platoons comprising fringe journeyman. Dellucci was an unexciting sign. Michaels and Blake are mediocre. Nixon is a welcome addition as he has a preven mlb track record. The balance are some very average players that Shapiro is adept as stocking the team with.

Given the way this team was pummelled last season by Detroit, Minnesota and Chicago, I don't see where they significantly added talent for them to overtake the 3 division rivals.

Dolan is not interested in contending. If he was, he would have ordered Shapiro to add impact talent and given him the budget to make it happen. Third place finish at best this season with 6 straight years of no playoffs.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:54 pm

DGeneral, welcome to the boards!

Great first post.

The only thing I disagree with is the Dolan part. He gave Shapiro the money, but Shapiro's ego spent it on reclamation projects and journeymen guesses instead of proven talent. Sure Shapiro can get lucky and these guys pan out. More than likely though it will be another season of trades, so we can acquire young talent, then never have the balls to play the young talent and replacing them with over the hill never weres.
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Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:06 pm

Dgen dont bring ur Dolan Bashing and pessimism here

I post here to get away from u lot on the cleveland.com forum
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:17 pm

Dgen dont bring ur Dolan Bashing and pessimism here


All are welcome here.

I post here to get away from u lot on the cleveland.com forum


Lucky us :mrgreen:
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Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:25 pm

Dgen dont bring ur Dolan Bashing and pessimism here


All are welcome here.

I post here to get away from u lot on the cleveland.com forum


Lucky us :mrgreen:


you know it

:P :-P :razz:
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Unread postby DGeneral » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:53 pm

DGeneral, welcome to the boards!

Great first post.

The only thing I disagree with is the Dolan part. He gave Shapiro the money, but Shapiro's ego spent it on reclamation projects and journeymen guesses instead of proven talent. Sure Shapiro can get lucky and these guys pan out. More than likely though it will be another season of trades, so we can acquire young talent, then never have the balls to play the young talent and replacing them with over the hill never weres.


A $65m payroll is still a puny sum given the task at hand. A 17% percent increase in spending isn't good enough put this team over the top.

Dolan does not get a pass for continuously funding one of the lowest payrolls in baseball the past 5 years. 07 payroll will likely be in the bottom 10 of the league again.

Good point about Shapiro not using the solutions dangling under his nose to improve the team. Dumping Phillips in favor of Vaquez was a horrific miss last year. Squandering $4m on the stiff Johnson instead of promoting Jeremy Sowers to the rotation was another huge blunder.

The 07 Shapiro ineptitude is already set up with not even giving Garko a chance to prove himself at 1b.
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Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:15 pm

DGeneral, welcome to the boards!

Great first post.

The only thing I disagree with is the Dolan part. He gave Shapiro the money, but Shapiro's ego spent it on reclamation projects and journeymen guesses instead of proven talent. Sure Shapiro can get lucky and these guys pan out. More than likely though it will be another season of trades, so we can acquire young talent, then never have the balls to play the young talent and replacing them with over the hill never weres.


A $65m payroll is still a puny sum given the task at hand. A 17% percent increase in spending isn't good enough put this team over the top.

Dolan does not get a pass for continuously funding one of the lowest payrolls in baseball the past 5 years. 07 payroll will likely be in the bottom 10 of the league again.

Good point about Shapiro not using the solutions dangling under his nose to improve the team. Dumping Phillips in favor of Vaquez was a horrific miss last year. Squandering $4m on the stiff Johnson instead of promoting Jeremy Sowers to the rotation was another huge blunder.

The 07 Shapiro ineptitude is already set up with not even giving Garko a chance to prove himself at 1b.


why are you basing this teams success, how Shap has performed in the offseason and how you think the team will do this season on how much money we spend?

you dont need to spend $100m on a player to make a significant impact on your team

we had the 4th best starters ERA second best offense and we have the 2 best players in our division.

we needed veteran, reliable bullpen arms, we needed to improve the infield defense, we needed another corner OF bat and we needed to get rid of wedge

We got 4 count em FOUR veteran arms for the bullpen with proven career records. Foulke has had a WHIP over 1.19 only once in his career, he ahs 190 saves and a career 3.30ERA and he threw 14 scoreless innings to finish the 06 campaign. Too much is amde of injuries today and its something the Dolan haters love to grab onto in order to criticise the FO.
Fact is Millwood, Howry, Elarton, Sauerbeck and others all came to Cleveland injured with their careers in jeopardy, and they helped form a 92 win team.

Aaron Fultz' numbers look tatty but considering he'll face lefties he'll do the biz. 3.65ERA versus left handed batters last year 27K/6BB in those 24.2innings. And we have protection inc ase he goes down with my boy Tony Sipp who is the second coming of Mo Rivera and you better believe it.

Roberto hernandez! a lot was made about his age (by the jumpers of course) but Julio franco and Roger Clemens are like fine wines, and Roberto H is no different he jsut gets better in fact in his last the seasons he has composed his best 3 ERA's in the last 7 seasons, 326 career saves and a 3.32 career ERA but of course we can throw that 18 year career out the window cos he's 42 and his arm is falling off.

Joe Borowski 80-101 in Saves 3.86ERA in his career last season he went 1-2-3 in the 9th more often than Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera, he should be even more dynamite as a setup man.

Infield defense with Blake at first base the right hand side is more athletic and better defensively, the acquisition of barfield makes second abse younger and quicker with better range than Ronnie and better offensively. Defensively he's solid.
We all saw Andy marte flashing leather in the back-end of 2006 there's no way Victor Martinez can perform worse at throwing runners out and fans seem to forget he's a good defender behind the plate, he's just slow and cant throw and he played with an injured toe (apparently) for a lot of the second half.
Even though it wasnt a concern the OF got better defensively with Nixon.

Corner OF bat? we got 2 both with power although it seems Trot is losing his rapidly however he is balancing that out with more walks and less K's (60BB/56K in 381 at bats last season 96K's in 441 at bats in 2003)

he has a career .278AVG and a nice looking .366OBP (.373 in 2006)
so our number 2 hitter this year will have a 50 point increase in his On base %.

Dellucci is all power and he'll look even batter in a platoon role without the southpaws ruining his overall stats.

Wedge isnt gone and thats all we can moan at Shapiro for.
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Unread postby furls » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:36 pm

feel free to blast Dolan and Shapiro at your leisure and welcome to the boards. All intelligent arguments are valid here!

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Unread postby pup » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:12 pm

why are you basing this teams success, how Shap has performed in the offseason and how you think the team will do this season on how much money we spend?


I am not. I am basing it on who we spent it on.

2 best players in our division


In a division with the reigning MVP and Cy Young winners, that is a pretty hard statement to justify.

reliable bullpen arms


Which we still need.

We got 4 count em FOUR veteran arms


But not reliable.

Too much is amde of injuries today and its something the Dolan haters love to grab onto in order to criticise the FO.


I am on the record as not being a Dolan hater. Here is my problem, once again, with the bulpen additions: Fultz, Hernandez and Borowski have been getting by in the NL. They have been decent, but hardly great, pitching in AAAA. This does not translate to getting it done in the AL. Like I said, it could happen, but more than likeley these three plug along as we fall out of contention, then get traded to NL contenders, for some more kids who will not get a chance to play here in 08 because we will waste the $20mil Dolan gives Shapiro on Fultz, Browski, Hernandez and Foulke.



Fact is Millwood, Howry, Elarton, Sauerbeck and others all came to Cleveland injured with their careers in jeopardy, and they helped form a 92 win team.


That was supposed to be the beginning of a great run, not the pinnacle. And Scott Saursuck had nothing to do with that team winning 92 games. Millwood won 9 games. Howry and Elarton were terrific, then allowed to wonder out of town.

Tony Sipp who is the second coming of Mo Rivera and you better believe it.


So many things, where to begin? How about here: Stop the insanity. Now this is where my argument about the shitty off season really starts. All I keep hearing is about the volatility of MLB bullpens. About how you cannot predict what you will get out of relievers from year to year. Then someone please explain to me why in the hell would that be the one area you invest 80% of your FA budget on? Why not improve another area with someone who will impact 160 games, and count on all these great kids we have acquired over the last 6 years to handle the bullpen?

so our number 2 hitter this year will have a 50 point increase in his On base %.


But we don't need offense, you have said so yourself many times. Plus, I don't know why everyone gives Delucci and Nixon so much love for being good with the glove? Delucci has been a DH most of his career and while right field in Fenway has some wierd angles, it hardly requires a great defender. You have no responsibility to cover the line since their is no foul ground and your center fielder gets to shift toward right since the Monster makes left field a turn and catch position.

Wedge isnt gone and thats all we can moan at Shapiro for.


We can moan about that, but it is hardly all I can moan about with Shapiro.
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Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:01 pm

I am not. I am basing it on who we spent it on.


First of all check who was available to start the offseason period, secondly you do realise we're competing against 29 other teams for these FA's signatures??
and Finally considering the above considerations we came out very good in the end.





In a division with the reigning MVP and Cy Young winners, that is a pretty hard statement to justify.


I meant 2 best hitters, Morneau may be the MVP but I'll guarantee he doesnt hit over .300 more than once again in his career.
Ozzie Guillen himself says Grady is the best player in the division.


Which we still need.


you must have disregarded every stat i just listed to post that crap



But not reliable.


again you took no notice of career stats and probably didnt even bother to read my post properly and just want to argue for the sake of it.


I am on the record as not being a Dolan hater. Here is my problem, once again, with the bulpen additions: Fultz, Hernandez and Borowski have been getting by in the NL. They have been decent, but hardly great, pitching in AAAA. This does not translate to getting it done in the AL. Like I said, it could happen, but more than likeley these three plug along as we fall out of contention, then get traded to NL contenders, for some more kids who will not get a chance to play here in 08 because we will waste the $20mil Dolan gives Shapiro on Fultz, Browski, Hernandez and Foulke.



so what ur essentially saying is no matter how well a pitcher performs in the NL he is guaranteed to fail in the AL?

even if these pitchers had had sub 2 ERA's the 'NL is weaker' argument would still be your only ammunition.

Hernandez's best overall seasons came in the AL, the more important thing is they are veterans who have had success, if they had been younger relievers with only 2-4 years experience in the NL only I could share your concern but the fact is they can get good hitters out.
Millwood had his best year when he left the NL for the first time its just one example but its an example of how the NL weaker theory doesnt float and doesnt translate into failure in the AL.



That was supposed to be the beginning of a great run, not the pinnacle. And Scott Saursuck had nothing to do with that team winning 92 games. Millwood won 9 games. Howry and Elarton were terrific, then allowed to wonder out of town.


my point in this part of text was that pitchers coming off injury in cleveland especially seem to rebound with great years and that fans should not just dismiss a pitcher and consider him a non factor just cos he is coming off an injury. The majority of fans wanted Gagne to sign here more than any other reliever we went after and he was coming off the worst injury out of the lot of them.

Certain fans just want to use the 'damaged goods' shite as another weapon against the FO. If it were upto some fans the criteria for signing of free agents would be
1. no injuries in the last 5 years
2. must cost at least $10m a year
3. Must have had a great previous season regardless of what his career stats are
4. must be under 34 again stats irrelevant



So many things, where to begin? How about here: Stop the insanity. Now this is where my argument about the shitty off season really starts. All I keep hearing is about the volatility of MLB bullpens. About how you cannot predict what you will get out of relievers from year to year. Then someone please explain to me why in the hell would that be the one area you invest 80% of your FA budget on? Why not improve another area with someone who will impact 160 games, and count on all these great kids we have acquired over the last 6 years to handle the bullpen?


so many things where to begin? ok lets start with your reasoning as to why we shouldnt have spent so much on the bullpen (after you said we hadnt done enough to it) the common conception about the unpredictability of bullpens is not a reason to just ignore its importance and place a load of kids in bullpen roles. Teams just need to take more care when it comes to building a steady bullpen and not sign any reliever who has come off a decent year. The good thing about our bullpen is we actually do have very capable and very important relief prospects who are near enough ready for a more defined role in the ML clubs bullpen so if any of our relievers go down a guy like perez adn Sipp could really get shit done and provide the surprise of the season for the Indians. We actually have depth in our pen now, rememeber matt Miller is likely to start in AAA with K-Brera out of options and JD being our only long man option in the pen and having a strong second half. If someone goes down Matt Miller is the first man to come up and we know what he can do when he's healthy. We also have Tom Mastny who did a good job, Perez despite some control issues (3WP) can strike guys out as can Lara and Sipp. I'm not guaranteeing success from these guys but most teams dont have this kind of luxury an injury to a reliever could end up being a blessing.

For you to say 'bullpens are volatile so whats the point lets just put all our eggs in one basket and spend the money on a starter or OFer or whatever' is jsut senseless, we as Cleveland fans know how up and down bullpens can be more than anyone and we know how painful a bad bullpen can be so if anything we want extra special attention focused on the area and have it sorted on a long term basis, instead of having it plugged for one season then full of holes the next, most of the guys we've signed for the pen have come with club options so if they're good we keep them, if not we hand over to one of the youngsters who should have gotten some experience during the 2007 season.



But we don't need offense, you have said so yourself many times. Plus, I don't know why everyone gives Delucci and Nixon so much love for being good with the glove? Delucci has been a DH most of his career and while right field in Fenway has some wierd angles, it hardly requires a great defender. You have no responsibility to cover the line since their is no foul ground and your center fielder gets to shift toward right since the Monster makes left field a turn and catch position.


I sort of shared that opinion myself but upgrades offensively are still a plus and a difference maker especially when one of your table setters will be getting on base much more than he did last season, Pronk and Victor should thrive and with Dellucci protecting in the 5th spot instead of JP the team shoudl also benefit, dont take that to mean I'm suggesting pitchers fear the sight of Dellucci at the plate, but reality is he's a respected and dangerous hitter especially as he'll be platooning and facing his favoured opponents.
That was a pretty thin argument to try and play down the Trot Nixon acquisition and his play in the OF, can you attempt any positives words on anything I've brought up in this post?



[qoute]We can moan about that, but it is hardly all I can moan about with Shapiro.[/quote]

Shapiro did his best with the funds allocated to him as i said he's competed with 29 other GM's in a thin market and would have still had the extensions of JW, CC and Pronk in the back of his mind. He even surprised us all by acquiring one of the better young infielders in the game.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:18 pm

When evaluating pitching there is nothing more important than their injury history. Many smokers liked to talk about how George Burns lived till' he was 90, yet most of em' died much earlier than that. Fact is, a pitcher with an arm injury, especially multiple, are very likely to have one again.
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Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:20 pm

When evaluating pitching there is nothing more important than their injury history. Many smokers liked to talk about how George Burns lived till' he was 90, yet most of em' died much earlier than that. Fact is, a pitcher with an arm injury, especially multiple, are very likely to have one again.


i never said anything to the contrary

I just said an injury in a previous season doesnt mean that pitcher cant be successful again when healthy
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Unread postby pup » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:32 pm

even if these pitchers had had sub 2 ERA's the 'NL is weaker' argument would still be your only ammunition


No. If they "dominated" in the NL, then I would have no problem with them translating to the AL. Take all of you ERA numbers and add 1. That is about what they will or would have done in the AL.

doesnt translate into failure in the AL.


I am not predicting failure for any of these guys. I am predicting that they will not be as good as what their numbers say they were. Therefore we spent our entire winter spending money that may very well not be any better than what we have in house. If you want to sign one of the guys to close, go ahead. Then spend some money on another area of need, a right handed bat.

my point in this part of text was that pitchers coming off injury in cleveland especially seem to rebound with great years and that fans should not just dismiss a pitcher and consider him a non factor just cos he is coming off an injury. The majority of fans wanted Gagne to sign here more than any other reliever we went after and he was coming off the worst injury out of the lot of them.


I really do not get what is so hard to understand. If you are going to say you cannot make a mistake in free agency to compete, and the indians say that every year, why would you spend the money on A) any serious injury history or B) the place where most mistakes are mad on free agency? Why in the hell would you do both?

The majority of fans wanted Gagne to sign here more than any other reliever we went after and he was coming off the worst injury out of the lot of them.


From my december 12 post:

I am not mad they did not sign him, I have been anti-Gagne since the first time it was mentioned.


if not we hand over to one of the youngsters who should have gotten some experience during the 2007 season.


Why wern't they getting it in 2006?

That was a pretty thin argument to try and play down the Trot Nixon acquisition and his play in the OF, can you attempt any positives words on anything I've brought up in this post?


The Nixon outfield argument is not to downgrade the Nixon signing. I am just saying he was not brought here for his outfield defense. It prpbably wasn't even really considered too much. He is fine defensively. It is the people mentioning his defense as a huge positive that I don't get. He was brought in to be a clubhouse guy and be a professional hitter in the 2 hole. If he is healthy, I like the signing. Just have a doubt that he can stay healthy.

And before I even got to your last sentence, I had planned on complimenting you on this post. It is the most thought out and rational post I may have seen from you. Keep posts like this coming, and everyone will benefit.
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