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The Outfield

Unread postby jameseboy » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:59 am

Its pretty clear that barring something unforeseen our starting outfield will be Fransisco Sizemore and Choo. The only real question coming out of spring training is do they pull the plug on DeLucci.

We now have potential back up outfielders in Barfield, Garko, Carroll and DeRosa so a fourth outfielder is almost as much a luxury as a need.

In the pipeline we have some major talent in Crowe, Laporta, and Brantley.

Whats gonna happen? We can pretty much forget Delucci if he isnt cut by the end of the season he is gone then for sure but will one of these young guys force out one of our corner outflelders? Will there be a trade and if so who will it be. You can never be sure what will happen when you bring someone to the majors for the first time but would we be willing to trade Fransisco or Choo? Would we be willing to trade one of the AAA guys? Where would we get the most value? Its a great situation to be in. I love spring training and the potential you can see this time of year.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby Steve Buffum » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:42 am

Better to put this here than to start a new thread: Garko is apparently looking like a professional outfielder:

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindea ... xml&coll=2

If he can play right, you can give Choo the day off against a tough lefty. I'd still like to see him face SOME lefties over the season, because an everyday player is more valuable than a platoon player. Of course, I'd like Grady Sizemore to hit lefties better, too, but I'm in no rush to see Garko in center (for the pedantic: I won't).

As far as left, I really don't see Francisco as either a roadblock or a problem: he's not so good that putting Garko there would be a big mistake, and he's not so bad that NOT putting Garko there would be a big mistake. He's a guy. Average is still better than bad.

But to the point of carrying "five outfielders," I have to think that this paves the way for the dismissal of Dellucci and Francisco within a year. At some point, you probably have to choose between Garko and Francisco, and if Garko can play 1B while hitting comparably, he'll get the slot. I still think the bats are:

Martinez, Shoppach
Garko
Cabrera, Barfield
Peralta
DeRosa, Carroll
Francisco, Dellucci
Sizemore
Choo
Hafner

But some changes around the edges wouldn't surprise me.

Note: I am not saying this is the roster I would choose or that I believe it optimal. I am predicting what the Indians will do.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:51 am

I'm all for the Gutz trade as we filled 1 current RP hole & possibly a future hole at 2B.

That said, we need to pray that Grady plays at least 150 games this season or our pitchers aren't going to be happy campers.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby Toxicadam » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:57 am

There is absolutely zero reason for Dellucci to be on this team.

He is limited in the field, at BEST will OPS 800 against RHP (something Francisco is perfectly capable of by himself) and offers no other kind of depth from the bench.

I would like to see Crowe on the bench as a late inning option for a pinch runner or someone to occasionally spell Sizemore. I would rather have him than Barfield. But Barfield will probably get the nod.

Everybody should be rooting for Ben Francisco to have a good year. It would be great to flip him in the off-season coming off of a career year.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:05 am

There are currently 4 million reasons that Dellucci is on the team. The FO has never eaten that big of a contract & I doubt that they will now.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby redneckofsc » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:12 am

There are currently 4 million reasons that Dellucci is on the team. The FO has never eaten that big of a contract & I doubt that they will now.



4,000,001 reasons..the other one being that he is a grinder and a prototypical pet of Wedge.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby statmasta » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:15 am

redneckofsc wrote:
There are currently 4 million reasons that Dellucci is on the team. The FO has never eaten that big of a contract & I doubt that they will now.



4,000,001 reasons..the other one being that he is a grinder and a prototypical pet of Wedge.

Wedge hasn't guaranteed him a spot on this team.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby jameseboy » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:15 pm

DeLucci isnt really an issue...whether they cut him now or keep him around as fill in outfielder he will definitely be gone after this year. Having five guys that appear to have a lot of talent for two outfield spots, and if Choo is the real deal, four for one is...Brantly Crow LaPorta and Franscisco.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby davemanddd » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:36 pm

redneckofsc wrote:
There are currently 4 million reasons that Dellucci is on the team. The FO has never eaten that big of a contract & I doubt that they will now.



4,000,001 reasons..the other one being that he is a grinder and a prototypical pet of Wedge.


here we go again.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby osucrazy18 » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:46 pm

please dont start this grinder shit again
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:47 pm

Grinder....I'm hungry....time for a sammich!
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby nwizzle » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:56 pm

jameseboy wrote:DeLucci isnt really an issue...whether they cut him now or keep him around as fill in outfielder he will definitely be gone after this year. Having five guys that appear to have a lot of talent for two outfield spots, and if Choo is the real deal, four for one is...Brantly Crow LaPorta and Franscisco.


As it currently stands I don't see Crowe or Francisco being everyday outfielders, and one should get traded for some depth (perhaps an actual 5th starter?). That leaves Brantley and LaPorta in LF assuming Choo is the real deal, and I'm not even close to convinced that he is, and if this is the case, then I see Brantley winning the spot in the outfield, and LaPorta moving to 1st/DH (whichever one is not being occupied by a reliable major leaguer).

The main problem I see, is that the Indians have too many outfielders and 1st basemen. There is a huge influx of those kinds of players in the system with Crowe, Brantley, LaPorta, Weglarz, Aubrey, Brown, and Head in the system. Some decisions need to be made about who is worth keeping and who is roster fodder.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby slegend » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:03 pm

I read a blog from a reporter that was really shocked about how "improved" Garko looks running, throwing, fielding 10 to 15 pounds off his weight from last year, and he was 10 pounds in 08 under his 07 number. I wonder how many other players might show night and day improvement with the athletic ability if they lost the gut. I think Garko will get full-time ABs and that means a scenario with Shoppach/Garko/Martinez at C/LF/1B. So Francisco will either shift to RF and bench Choo, or miss some regular ABs to start the season.

I also would like to have Barfield on the roster and playing some 2B and CF as a utility player. We need him to find a stick and compete for the 2B job, if Cabrera fails to hit.

Craplucci might "earn" a bench job only because we want LaPorta, Brantley, Crowe to play everyday at AAA and fight for that starting job, when a Choo-Francisco fail or a player is injured.

In the end, I am not going to bash Wedge on this, as these are great problems to have! Hell, we started to win a lot of games last season and we could barely field a 25 man roster with the trades and injuries. This team might be scary elite with a relatively healthy core of talent.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby Chiefroy » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:12 pm

slegend wrote:I read a blog from a reporter that was really shocked about how "improved" Garko looks running, throwing, fielding 10 to 15 pounds off his weight from last year, and he was 10 pounds in 08 under his 07 number. I wonder how many other players might show night and day improvement with the athletic ability if they lost the gut. I think Garko will get full-time ABs and that means a scenario with Shoppach/Garko/Martinez at C/LF/1B. So Francisco will either shift to RF and bench Choo, or miss some regular ABs to start the season.

I also would like to have Barfield on the roster and playing some 2B and CF as a utility player. We need him to find a stick and compete for the 2B job, if Cabrera fails to hit.

Craplucci might "earn" a bench job only because we want LaPorta, Brantley, Crowe to play everyday at AAA and fight for that starting job, when a Choo-Francisco fail or a player is injured.

In the end, I am not going to bash Wedge on this, as these are great problems to have! Hell, we started to win a lot of games last season and we could barely field a 25 man roster with the trades and injuries. This team might be scary elite with a relatively healthy core of talent.



Unless Choo shows renewed struggles with lefties this year, I don't expect we'll see much of Garko in the OF. I do think he could see OF time vs lefties that he has had very good #s against. For example, vs. Buehrle and Danks both, Garko has an OPS over 1.200...he's hit them well and he should be in the lineup. Choo or Francisco could sit in such instances. If Choo DOES has trouble with lefties this year, we could see him sitting vs them everytime, with a Garko/OF - Shop/C scenario, or DeRosa/OF - Carroll/2B scenario. But hopefully Choo continues his lefty/lefty improvement and can play everyday. Unless he starts out hot, I think Garko's ABs could be somewhat limited, as opposed to full-time.

Barfield I think, will only occasionally see action as a pinchrunner or in the OF in the rare game when Grady and Choo might both sit. I think Cabrera will hit and play virtually everyday.

Dellucci will most likely see some action vs righties, unless he gets hurt or does absolutely nothing this spring. With some success he could see substantial time vs righties imho...if he produces he earns PT and also he needs to show OTHER teams he still has value. If we release him before the season, Crowe should get the spot, but I expect we'll have the Looch a while longer.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby bookelly » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:14 pm

osucrazy18 wrote:please dont start this grinder shit again



you rang?
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby slegend » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:19 pm

I would disagree with those that do not expect to see Garko in LF. When Shoppach enters the game as the starting catcher, Victor will man 1B, and Garko will start in LF. That means Big Ben will become bench warmer Ben. Garko has the stick to hit for average and drive in runs.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby DrPoove » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:44 pm

slegend wrote:I would disagree with those that do not expect to see Garko in LF. When Shoppach enters the game as the starting catcher, Victor will man 1B, and Garko will start in LF. That means Big Ben will become bench warmer Ben. Garko has the stick to hit for average and drive in runs.

I think that will happen from time to time but not 100% of the time when Shppach is catching and Vic is at first. But I agree that we WILL see Garko in the OF from time to time in 2009.

Dellucci, who knows. In another thread someone (Buff?) brought up the fact if you cut him Crowe only costs you about $350K for the season. Or do you carry him and hope someone has a need for a LH OF bat and trade him during the year. Dunno. Could see them cutting him and could see them keeping The Looch.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby CDAV6 » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:25 am

I believe Dellucci is gone. Shapiro and Wedge are putting up a front and hoping he performs well this spring to trade him off. Maybe getting a good lower level prospect or dumping his salary. This was a hard learned lesson with Phillips, don't place any negativity on a player you would like to move and maybe someone will bite. Francisco actually hits right handers better than lefties thus eliminating the need to platoon.

I don't believe Garko will take very many at bats from Francisco. They have both hit their entire professional careers at every level with small hiccups in their second years in Cleveland. Francisco is much better than Garko in the outfield, no matter how many pounds Garko sheds. Francisco runs the bases well and can actually swipe one from time to time. Both have average to slightly above average power. I actually think both could easily hit between 25-30 over the course of a full season.

Trevor Crowe would be our starting centerfielder if it wasn't for Sizemore. I think he holds tremendous value to the Indians and probably many other teams. He is as well rounded as anyone on the team. He hits for average, has some power, runs well, fields well, and is a sparkplug that can get things started. Many have compared him to Brian Roberts. I am not saying he is but I do think he is going to be very good.

With LaPorta, Brantley, and Crowe being ready or close to ready there are going to be some tuff decisions to make. What about a guy like Head who is a gifted athlete that can play a few different positions with awesome power.

What about Brown and Aubrey. I personally like both of them better than Garko. Both are superior to Garko at first and IMO will be high average, high OBP guys that will hit 20-25 bombs. I cannot believe that everyone passed on Brown when he was rule V eligible. A team like SanFran should have jumped all over him. With Mills moving through the system quickly, both Aubrey and Brown become expendable. Don't forget Head plays an exceptional first base.

I think we all know of our catching and left handed pitching depth. Imagine if Lofgren turns it around this year and reastablishes his career, I have faith that he will. Obviously some of this talent will experience set backs. Or maybe they won't as they have all been in the system for awhile now and are projectable to a certain extent. But irreguardless we have the talent and depth to replace players and some will simply force their way in. Either way there is a lot of pieces to put together for a real nice trade. Preferably for a starting pitcher. What could we get for Crowe, Francisco, Garko, Shoppach, Brown or Aubrey, and Laffey? I don't think these players are garbage we don't need, but rather victoms of an overabundance of upper level near major league ready(or just ready) talent at their given positions. If I were the Giants I would be calling Mark and offering Matt Cain for some sort of package. They supposedly have the pitching depth to replace him but no offense to score runs. Keep in mind I am not saying trade all of the afformentioned players for one pitcher, but merely suggesting combining some of those names in a given deal. I could be alittle over zealous but we are loaded with young talent and our rotation could use a legitamate top of the rotation pitcher. If that arm is added the Indians are clearly favored to win the central and make a push towards a world series ring.

Sorry to rant but I am at work, bored, and excited about the organization as a whole. Shapiro has done a remarkable job of rebuilding the system and putting himself in a position to make a deal. We will just have to wait and see what happens but it sure is fun to talk about............ obviously.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby MadThinker88 » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:20 pm

Personally I am hoping that the Indians are able to package Delucci and fringe prospect for another prospect that deepens a need area in the organization.

Fortunately the organization has done a pretty good job addressing those spots so that if no deal is made, they are not facing major problems.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby Jennifer » Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:44 pm

Eckersley wrote:Grinder....I'm hungry....time for a sammich!

Why don't you go to the beach and eat the sand which is there.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby noles1 » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:09 pm

Personally I feel like Crowe needs to make this team. Cut bait with Dave D. now and give yourself a guy off the bench that can add something and maybe even more importantly is someone you can plug into LF and add defense and late inning speed. He's the perfect 4th outfielder. Dellucci, well he's useless on our roster. Any notion of trading him is a pipe dream unless we pick up a portion of that salary.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby CDAV6 » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:40 am

I agree Noles. We would have to eat Dellucci's contract to get anything worth having. Maybe a combination of him and a real good prospect(in an area of depth) could bring us a really good talent.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby redneckofsc » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:25 am

Why don't you go to the beach and eat the sand which is there.


You should have been a comedian.
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby Jennifer » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:33 am

redneckofsc wrote:
Why don't you go to the beach and eat the sand which is there.


You should have been a comedian.

But your posts are always so much funnier -- whether intended or not. :angel:
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Re: The Outfield

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:44 pm

I predict Garko will take at-bats from both Choo and Francisco, but mainly Francisco. Ben, unfortunately, is a liablity defensively. I assume Garko is also below average in left, despite the lost weight and increased speed. So it's a wash defensively and it will come down to who rakes better, and that's Garko.

I can see Shoppach catching four games out of five with Victor catching only when Carmona pitches and playing first the rest of the time. Garko plays first when Carmona pitches. He also plays right field against tough lefties to give Choo an occasional rest. He plays left the rest of the time.

I don't see Carroll, DeRosa or Barfield playing in the outfield. DeRosa is the everyday 3rd baseman and he needs to concentrate on that. Carroll starts a couple of times a week to rest DeRosa, Jhonny, and Astrubal. Barfield pinch runs for Victor or Hafner. When he pinch runs for Victor, he replaces Garko in left and Garko moves to first base.

I see no reason for Dellucci to be on the team and take at-bats away from Francisco, Garko, or Choo. The reason Dellucci was signed two years ago is no longer valid. We signed Dellucci and Jason Michaels as a platoon to replace Crisp in left field. We now have a competent left fielder in Francisco and apparently another one in Garko. Barfield can play there as well, but I don't think he hits enough to play second base much less a corner OF position.
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