Jennifer on BP

[KiltedFool]

Logical fallacy there, you see it a lot on forums.

BP's performance with the Reds cannot be transferred to the Indians if you magically go back and change history so that Vazquez gets run down by Eck driving a hijacked city bus in Winter Haven that year.

You can't claim the BP that played for the Reds would be the BP that played for the Tribe. In fact IMO you can guarantee nearly the opposite. With BP's "my shit doesn't stink and you can't tell me nothin' " attitude I doubt he'd have been a productive Indian.

BP was Steamin Willie Beeman, so full of himself and so loaded with entitlement. Self absorbed to the nth degree (This said with the caveat that I liked the kid and enjoyed the "who's better Reyes or BP" debates after the Colon trade). Per quotes from him after the trade, it caused some shifting in his perspective (you could draw parallels to the wakeup call Bradley said spending nights in jail gave him) and injected a little maturity.

So he went on to the Reds where he could basically do his Kenny Lofton impersonation of swinging for the fences everyday and spout his Bradley's mom quotes about "Wedge keeping him down". Now he gets the ultimate idiot coach in Baker, who doesn't believe in OBP and thinks a pitcher's arm is a snack akin to Lay's potato chips. Perfect for him, he can pile up individual stats in last place.

Hey maybe if we'd have had Billy Wagner around to hang a "Know Your Role, Rook!" sign in BP's locker it would have been all better!

I enjoy reading Jen's writing. I enjoy reading much of the writing here. That's the point.

[Jennifer]

because that changes things?

Won't change anything, but I still want to hear it because I think Wedge still thinks he made the right decision.

Shapiro made the trade.... it was his mistake.

Whether Wedge advised him to do it or not, Shapiro knows the buck stops with him and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want Wedge to come out a take responsibility for it.

The point you missed is that Shapiro owned up to it. But we all know that Wedge was the one who convinced Shapiro that Vazquez was a better fit than Brandon. Now I'm not a Wedge basher - per se, but the truth is, he let Shapiro take 100% of the blame for this and to my knowledge, never once admitted it was his choice.

That imo, shows a lack of character on Wedge's part.

Tito -- Actually, you are the one missing the point (one because of length of the piece I didn't include). Later in the book Pluto notes that one of the things he so highly values in Wedge is Wedge's "loyalty." Where was Shapiro's loyalty to Wedge in pointing the finger at Wedge and the "coaching staff" instead of pointing the finger at the organization and admitting there was disagreement within the organization. Yea, I understand he fests up to being the ultimate decisionmaker but then he tries to mitigate it by saying it was treated as not important because it was the 25th man roster spot.

Which is is it? Was Shapiro letting a player he thought could realize a high side potential go because he was the 25th man and the Tribe was trying to contend in 2006? Or is it that the decision was so unpopular that Shapiro felt admitting, using hindsight, was the correct PR move.

Why you, Eck and others keep raising Wedge's silence against him when it is based on what is likely a false premise baffles me.

What in the world would make you think that Wedge thinks getting rid of Phillips was a mistake? Based on everything you know about Wedge (even though he might disagree with him) is Phillips really the type of player Wedge wants on his 25 man roster? Is Wedge really the type of person whom would pu8blicly attack Phillips to defend himself? Is Wedge really the type to be disloyal to Shapiro by publicly disagreeing and perhaps even offering facts Shapiro might have left out?

[Eckersley]

BP's performance with the Reds cannot be transferred to the Indians if you magically go back and change history so that Vazquez gets run down by Eck driving a hijacked city bus in Winter Haven that year.

You can't claim the BP that played for the Reds would be the BP that played for the Tribe. In fact IMO you can guarantee nearly the opposite. With BP's "my shit doesn't stink and you can't tell me nothin' " attitude I doubt he'd have been a productive Indian.

I agree with that KF, but you think the kid's attitude may have changed a bit if he had a manager who hadn't jerked him around & was a bit more tolerant?

I think things would've been far different had a Mike Hargrove type been in the dugout. He managed all types of personalities quite well & didn't long for 25 choir boys.

[peeker643]

I just got done reading the article and my opinions
1. Very well written
2. Too long (which made it boring to me)
3. Too much unnessesary bashing IMO (especially when trying to be funny)
4. Bad topic, I can think of probably 2,000 things I'd rather read about the Indians other than rehashing a topic that is brought up all the time on the message board. (I know the title should have tipped me off to the subject matter haha but I try to read every article on the site).

So aside from the topic sucking and it boring you and containing far too much criticism leveled at the protagonist it was well written? You mean from a grammar and capitalization standpoint or what?

And Eck read it all and commented only on the fact that he doesn't like Wedge and that the Indians and their Cy Young Winner wouldn't have blown a 3-1 ALCS lead at home if BP was at 2b in June of '07.

Allllriiiighty then. Good talk Rusty.
It's definitely almost baseball season. Where the hell is Duane Kuiper? Nosco start a site or something that that guy took off for? One that requires an algorithm as a password?

FML.

The column was terrific. Well done.

Eck, How the hell would BP make a difference with Wedge managing?

He wouldn't as they both couldn't exist on the same team. BP didn't bow down to the massa.

Had BP been kept, Wedge more than likely would've had an aneurism, resigned or his face would've ticked off.

Ahhh yess.... the racism card. When there's nothing factual to support a position throw this one out there. Herm should be here soon for support

Man, even white dudes will play the racism card when they got nothing to argue.

And physical quirks blasts as well. Very nicely done Eck. Add it to the body of work up thread and you've got one to really hang your hat on.

Life must be easy when you live like Dr. King and look like Brad Pitt. Good for you.

[Eckersley]

Why you, Eck and others keep raising Wedge's silence against him when it is based on what is likely a false premise baffles me.

What in the world would make you think that Wedge thinks getting rid of Phillips was a mistake? Based on everything you know about Wedge (even though he might disagree with him) is Phillips really the type of player Wedge wants on his 25 man roster?

No. Phillips clearly isn't the type of player that Wedge wants on his team. That's 1 of my complaints about Wedge.

I'd like to see a manager who takes all types of personalities as long as they have talent & works with those personalities rather than wishing them off the team.

I'm thankful Wedge wasn't the manager during the days of Belle, Lofton, Omar & Robbie.

[hermanfontenot]

Logical fallacy there, you see it a lot on forums.

BP's performance with the Reds cannot be transferred to the Indians if you magically go back and change history so that Vazquez gets run down by Eck driving a hijacked city bus in Winter Haven that year.

You can't claim the BP that played for the Reds would be the BP that played for the Tribe. In fact IMO you can guarantee nearly the opposite. With BP's "my shit doesn't stink and you can't tell me nothin' " attitude I doubt he'd have been a productive Indian.

BP was Steamin Willie Beeman, so full of himself and so loaded with entitlement. Self absorbed to the nth degree (This said with the caveat that I liked the kid and enjoyed the "who's better Reyes or BP" debates after the Colon trade). Per quotes from him after the trade, it caused some shifting in his perspective (you could draw parallels to the wakeup call Bradley said spending nights in jail gave him) and injected a little maturity.

So he went on to the Reds where he could basically do his Kenny Lofton impersonation of swinging for the fences everyday and spout his Bradley's mom quotes about "Wedge keeping him down". Now he gets the ultimate idiot coach in Baker, who doesn't believe in OBP and thinks a pitcher's arm is a snack akin to Lay's potato chips. Perfect for him, he can pile up individual stats in last place.

Hey maybe if we'd have had Billy Wagner around to hang a "Know Your Role, Rook!" sign in BP's locker it would have been all better!

I enjoy reading Jen's writing. I enjoy reading much of the writing here. That's the point.

Gee, Kilted, I had no idea you knew Brandon Phillips personally and spent so much time around him that you could make these kinds of judgements about his character.

[Jennifer]

I just got done reading the article and my opinions
1. Very well written
2. Too long (which made it boring to me)
3. Too much unnessesary bashing IMO (especially when trying to be funny)
4. Bad topic, I can think of probably 2,000 things I'd rather read about the Indians other than rehashing a topic that is brought up all the time on the message board. (I know the title should have tipped me off to the subject matter haha but I try to read every article on the site).

Brook -- I agree with point two (it was too long on one hand but not nearly as long as it should have been if length was not an issue) and disagree with point three (although each of our opinions are very subjective)

As to point four let me ask you a question. Is there not a single thing in the piece that you didn't already know? For example, did you know how badly Phillips ranked among second baseman in certain critical stats? Did you know Phillips took full responsibility for what happened in Cleveland? That he later recanted? That Phillips thinks OBP is vastly overrated? That Baker blames Phillips 2008 season on the same things the Tribe was faulting Phillips for?

If you truly learned nothing new of relevance, even if it didn't change your mind, then I failed you. And I apologize. But I do think the vast numbers of readers did learn somethings.

[Eckersley]

Herm should be here soon for support

Speak of the Herm & he shall appear.

Besides, how do you know I'm white?

[peeker643]

Herm should be here soon for support

Speak of the Herm & he shall appear.

You don't see Reverand Al without seeing Jesse Jackson.

[hermanfontenot]

Herm should be here soon for support

Speak of the Herm & he shall appear.

It's like the Bat Signal.

I don't feel like speculating about Eric Wedge's racial sensitivities is any different than blasting Brandon Phillips's character and personality sight unseen. I just don't.

[pup]

Herm should be here soon for support

Speak of the Herm & he shall appear.

It's like the Bat Signal.

I don't feel like speculating about Eric Wedge's racial sensitivities is any different than blasting Brandon Phillips's character and personality sight unseen. I just don't.

I think there is a lot more evidence to support Philips was a hot head me self swing machine than there is Wedge is a racist. A LOT.

[KiltedFool]

I agree with that KF, but you think the kid's attitude may have changed a bit if he had a manager who hadn't jerked him around & was a bit more tolerant?

I think things would've been far different had a Mike Hargrove type been in the dugout. He managed all types of personalities quite well & didn't long for 25 choir boys.

First off, I disagree with the basic premise that he was jerked around, at least over his entire Tribe tenure. I can almost agree to the jerked around tag in that fateful spring training time frame. The standard "Wedge had made up his mind it was Vazquez and lied to BP" I generally disagree with too, but that's minor. Odds are it was more of a "let's see what his attitude is in ST, if he gets it he stays, if he still doesn't, he goes."

BP's basic behavior was akin to a level of established star without actually having earned it or having paid his dues. He was a rookie and acted like Bonds or Griffey. He had Griffey's smile and Bonds' entitlement.

I consider Wedge quite tolerant in his handling of the players. By the time an issue with a player bubbles out into the press Wedge has made multiple attempts to handle it quietly in house. Betancourt, Bradley, Peralta off the top of my head. I don't see a reason to assume Wedge arrived at his decision and handling on Phillips any differently.

And Hargrove didn't manage players, the veterans on the team did most of that, Grover filled out the lineup cards and handled pitching changes. He had a very veteran team which afforded him that luxury. I'm agnostic on whether Grover would have been more successful than Wedge.

It's the rookie's job to adjust himself to the clubhouse and the team, not the other way around.

Lines about massa and attempts on the race card are cheap rhetorical games and frankly I find half disgusting.

And Herm, I have this tendency to take a man by what he says, so when quoted speaking like a jerk, playing the Wedge kept me down game and labeling himself as The Franchise I'll consider that. Ask around you'll find I'm generally unwilling to draw strong conclusions when the data is fragmentary.

[peeker643]

Herm should be here soon for support

Speak of the Herm & he shall appear.

It's like the Bat Signal.

I don't feel like speculating about Eric Wedge's racial sensitivities is any different than blasting Brandon Phillips's character and personality sight unseen. I just don't.

Clearly.

Neither you nor Eck do.

The difference being Jennifer documented the points in regard to Phillips, he admitted to some of them and others have spoken to it as well.

However, it's basically you, Eck, BP and Milton Bradley's mother who throw the race card down at Wedge's feet. Unlless you there are documents and links I'm missing.

I have zero against BP. Love watching good ballplayers. I don't think you, Eck and Mrs bradley can say the same as to Wedge. Like I said, the race card is often pulled from empty pockets.

[consigliere]

I agree, the topic choices and way Jen has attacked them has been super.

Two more really creative pieces coming. First one, already in my inbox, is excellent.

We've created a monster Rich.

Jen, that was an outstanding piece. Your reasoning on the whole Vazquez/BP thing sort of made me at peace with the idea that Vazquez was in fact the better fit for the utility gig for all your reasons listed, and that it was the right choice. And I agree that Phillips is in fact a very average 2B (nice comp to the underappreciated Blake).

Here is my problem with the deal still. In an article I wrote six months after the trade and now 2 1/2 years ago I had this quote from Shapiro:

“Trading Phillips was a mistake. We probably erred on the side of trying to win now instead of what was best for the future of the franchise. We had a lot of divided opinions on that one. It was not a unanimous decision. . . . That's probably not the way we'll walk through that decision the next time we go through it.”

My problem is the lack of foresight they had with letting him go. Considering 2B was a gaping black hole in the organization at the time and there was NO ONE in line to assume the everyday 2B position and that Ron Belliard was entering his free agent year, to trade and release your ONLY internal solution, and possible long term solution, is what irked me then.

I am over the trade, but it is hard not to see the domino effect the trade had as by dealing him the Indians then had to go out in the offseason later that year and pawn off a hot hitting prospect in Kouzmanoff to correct the mistake they made in letting Phillips go too soon. Then, to fill the void left by Kouzmanoff, they trade Crisp for Marte. And then they had to make moves and trades to try and fill the loss of Crisp, which resulted in Jason Michaels and later David Dellucci. For the fact alone we got Dellucci likely as a byproduct of the trade makes me hate it.

The domino effect of that trade and how the Indians failed to fill the hole with numerous trades by creating other holes and finding the wrong replacements is why I still dislike that trade. He isn't that great of a player, but it sure would be nice to maybe still have him, Crisp, and Kouzmanoff or to use them in trades to fill other needs rather than backfill the holes you created on your own. The fact we traded him, and the net was the likes of Vazquez, Dellucci, Michaels, and Marte because the primary acquisitions, you can see why so many people HATE the trade and still talk about it.

Plus, if Vazquez had an option, why not have him start in Triple-A as insurance and give Phillips the job at first? And if he bombed, then all you have to do is DFA him anyway. Obviously there was a rift between Phillips and Wedge, and this is not the first time Wedge stomped his feet and said his way or the highway as far as letting talent go because he could not fit in with his team approach (c.f. Bradley, Milton). But, this was more than battling over the "25th player on the roster" as Shapiro was quoted in Dealing....this was about a player who could have been the "9th guy in the everyday lineup" sometime that season and in the future.

Again, great stuff.

[redneckofsc]

Hey maybe if we'd have had Billy Wagner around to hang a "Know Your Role, Rook!" sign in BP's locker it would have been all better!

We could have had Billy Wagner, but we drafted Darren Kirkreit that year one ahead of Wagner.

Also for a fact of the day, Derek Lee, Torii Hunter, Scott Rolen and Jason Varitek were drafted that year after the future Hall-of Famer Kirkreit.

[Eckersley]

And Herm, I have this tendency to take a man by what he says, so when quoted speaking like a jerk, playing the Wedge kept me down game and labeling himself as The Franchise I'll consider that.

KF, if you take a man for his word & he says that Wedge kept him down, why do you believe that Wedge really didn't keep him down? I don't think the kid stood a chance with Wedge no matter what he did after he got into the reported shouting match with Ferrell. JMO

Consig, thanks for your input. That's the best take of the entire thread.

[hermanfontenot]

Herm should be here soon for support

Speak of the Herm & he shall appear.

It's like the Bat Signal.

I don't feel like speculating about Eric Wedge's racial sensitivities is any different than blasting Brandon Phillips's character and personality sight unseen. I just don't.

Clearly.

Neither you nor Eck do.

The difference being Jennifer documented the points in regard to Phillips, he admitted to some of them and others have spoken to it as well.

However, it's basically you, Eck, BP and Milton Bradley's mother who throw the race card down at Wedge's feet. Unlless you there are documents and links I'm missing.

I have zero against BP. Love watching good ballplayers. I don't think you, Eck and Mrs bradley can say the same as to Wedge. Like I said, the race card is often pulled from empty pockets.

I think Eric Wedge is a small man with a small mind. I think he's a 2009 manager with a 1909 brain.

Not hard for me to believe such a man would have... problems with certain kinds of players.

[dazindiansfanuk]

And Herm, I have this tendency to take a man by what he says, so when quoted speaking like a jerk, playing the Wedge kept me down game and labeling himself as The Franchise I'll consider that.

KF, if you take a man for his word & he says that Wedge kept him down, why do you believe that Wedge really didn't keep him down? I don't think the kid stood a chance with Wedge no matter what he did after he got into the reported shouting match with Ferrell. JMO

Consig, thanks for your input. That's the best take of the entire thread.

I assume that KF sees, like I do, taking a man by what he says and taking a man for his word as two very different things.

[KiltedFool]

Some truth there Eck, I doubt BP's odds were real good after that shouting match. I do doubt it was irrevocable at that point, would have likely taken a massive attitude shift from BP to avoid the axe.

Wedge may have kept him down. Not because he's black (which is the intrinsic cheap gimmick people are playing when they use that phrase) but because he was a rookie.

Agreed Consig's input is strong, and I find it telling that the biggest legitimate beef against the handling of the issue (lack of other viable 2B depth) has absolutely zero to do with BP himself.

I would have sent Vazquez down personally, because I'm conservative in that I'll lean towards the path that preserves the most resources and contingencies, sometimes to my detriment.

Nice tidbit redneck.

Herm, were you ShaneHolmes elsewhere?

[leadpipe]

I just got done reading the article and my opinions
1. Very well written
2. Too long (which made it boring to me)
3. Too much unnessesary bashing IMO (especially when trying to be funny)
4. Bad topic, I can think of probably 2,000 things I'd rather read about the Indians other than rehashing a topic that is brought up all the time on the message board. (I know the title should have tipped me off to the subject matter haha but I try to read every article on the site).

So aside from the topic sucking and it boring you and containing far too much criticism leveled at the protagonist it was well written? You mean from a grammar and capitalization standpoint or what?

And Eck read it all and commented only on the fact that he doesn't like Wedge and that the Indians and their Cy Young Winner wouldn't have blown a 3-1 ALCS lead at home if BP was at 2b in June of '07.

Allllriiiighty then. Good talk Rusty.
It's definitely almost baseball season. Where the hell is Duane Kuiper? Nosco start a site or something that that guy took off for? One that requires an algorithm as a password?

FML.

The column was terrific. Well done.

Eck, How the hell would BP make a difference with Wedge managing?

He wouldn't as they both couldn't exist on the same team. BP didn't bow down to the massa.

Had BP been kept, Wedge more than likely would've had an aneurism, resigned or his face would've ticked off.

Classic. Just Classic.

Now, just this week, in addition to being to blame for each and every pitcher without balls enough to follow 100 year old baseball code, Eric Wedge is now responsible for every negative Brandon Phillips quality, no matter how widely regarded.

Beyond ridiculous.

No, really.

Beyond ridiculous.

[hermanfontenot]

Herm, were you ShaneHolmes elsewhere?

No.

[Eckersley]

Some truth there Eck, I doubt BP's odds were real good after that shouting match. I do doubt it was irrevocable at that point, would have likely taken a massive attitude shift from BP to avoid the axe.

And that's exactly why I think Wedge lied when stating there would be an "open competition" in spring training for the MI spot. The BP/Farrell spat had already occured & I think Wedge had already made up his mind.

For a guy who's preached character & integrity, it's pretty amazing.

[Jennifer]

And Herm, I have this tendency to take a man by what he says, so when quoted speaking like a jerk, playing the Wedge kept me down game and labeling himself as The Franchise I'll consider that.

KF, if you take a man for his word & he says that Wedge kept him down, why do you believe that Wedge really didn't keep him down? I don't think the kid stood a chance with Wedge no matter what he did after he got into the reported shouting match with Ferrell. JMO

Consig, thanks for your input. That's the best take of the entire thread.

Ummm. Did you really read the article?

Phillips initially blamed himself and agreed, as did the Reds, that he needed to go back to contact hitting and hitting to all fields.

So if you did read the article you choose to believe Phillips later assertion.

If Phillips were a witness he'[d be asked the question were you "lying then or are you lying know?"

There is a degree of legitimacy in debating to what extent a prospect's refusal to make adjustments to his swing and approach are grounds for getting rid of him. It is also debatable to what extent at yelling at the farming director, being petulant, and whining constantly to the press should influence personnel decisions. After all look how well lockerroom dysfunction served the Browns and Cowboys. But for Phillips to blame Wedge and others which is what he eventually did demonstrates an ego unwilling to even share in the responsibility.

If Phillips had been a star that would have been one thing but he was only a prospect whom thought he was entitled to star treatment.

[Prosecutor]

First of all, Wedge has nothing to apologize for. He needed a utility infielder, not a starting 2nd baseman. He honestly thought Vasquez would make a better UIF than Phillips, whose huge ego would have been a problem on the bench. It wasn't Wedge's fault that Phillips was out of options and either had to make the team or be traded. Wedge probably thought Inglett would also be a better UIF if Vasquez flopped. The Indians made a point of saying they traded Phillips because Vasquez was a "better fit".

The real problem was that in previous years they brought Phillips up way before he was ready to play at the major league level and used up his options. Then when 2006 came around they had a proven vet in Belliard at 2nd. Ideally they would have sent Phillips back to Buffalo for another year, but he was out of options. And because his reputation was so bad the best they could get for him was a project in the low minors after 28 teams wouldn't touch Phillips with a ten-foot pole.

For those who say it's been three years, let's drop it, I say it takes some time to track the performance of traded players before you can evaluate the trade with any degree of accuracy. What if Phillips flopped in Cincy and Stevens was closing for us?

dpdad made a good point about the Phillips trade resulting in the Kouzmanof for Barfield deal the following year, after Belliard left and we needed a starting 2nd baseman. If Phillips had not been out of options in 2006 they could have stashed him at Buffalo that year and gave him the starting 2nd baseman job in 2007. Kouzmanoff would have started at 3rd and Blake would have moved to right field, which meant probably no Dave Dellucci signing.

Would the Tribe have had a better record than the Red Sox in '07 with Phillips at 2nd, Kouz at 3rd and Blake in right? No Barfield or Dellucci wasting at-bats all year? Yeah, I think so. Would they have gone to the World Series with the home field advantage over the Sox? Who knows, but CC and Carmona were so bad that series that I doubt it.

[Eckersley]

And Herm, I have this tendency to take a man by what he says, so when quoted speaking like a jerk, playing the Wedge kept me down game and labeling himself as The Franchise I'll consider that.

KF, if you take a man for his word & he says that Wedge kept him down, why do you believe that Wedge really didn't keep him down? I don't think the kid stood a chance with Wedge no matter what he did after he got into the reported shouting match with Ferrell. JMO

Consig, thanks for your input. That's the best take of the entire thread.

Ummm. Did you really read the article?

Phillips initially blamed himself and agreed, as did the Reds, that he needed to go back to contact hitting and hitting to all fields.

So if you did read the article you choose to believe Phillips later assertion.

If Phillips were a witness he'[d be asked the question were you "lying then or are you lying know?"

There is a degree of legitimacy in debating to what extent a prospect's refusal to make adjustments to his swing and approach are grounds for getting rid of him. It is also debatable to what extent at yelling at the farming director, being petulant, and whining constantly to the press should influence personnel decisions. After all look how well lockerroom dysfunction served the Browns and Cowboys. But for Phillips to blame Wedge and others which is what he eventually did demonstrates an ego unwilling to even share in the responsibility.

If Phillips had been a star that would have been one thing but he was only a prospect whom thought he was entitled to star treatment.

Yes, I did read the article & thought that it was very thought out & very good.

I've never said that BP didn't have warts. They are well documented. Many kids in their early 20's have warts.

My view is that a decent manager is willing to work with all ages, all personalities, all egos.
I've seen nothing to suggest that Wedge was willing to go that route with BP.

The kid seems to be doing fairly well since he got out from under Wedge's thumb. Could be that he matured & it could be that Baker isn't keeping him down. We all have our opinions.

After getting into the shouting match with Farrell, I think the manager's mind was made up.

[redneckofsc]

BP is 10-22 this spring

[Steve Buffum]

BP is 10-22 this spring

He might be as good as Jason Donald!

[Stu]

i cant believe this is still being debated.

[davemanddd]

jennifer, the indians just called. they want to hire you to be in their p-r dept. anybody who can actually make the indians look good after the biggest debacle of how not to handle your top prospect is certainly worth your weight in gold. your official title will be "vp of spin".

that being said, you wrote an excellent article. the statistical analysis was dead on and you certainly proved your point. the fact of the matter remains though that the indians still made a big mistake in letting bp go. for all intents and purposes it was a "premature eradication".

furthermore, just because the indians got a single-a reliever in exchange for him doesn't take away from the fact that they simply gave up on him. they can say it was a trade all they want, but he was first designated for assignment without any trade prospects at that time and only after he was shopped around to all the other teams, the best they could get for him was jeff stevens. had cincy not done that, bp would have simply been put on waivers and they wouldn't have gotten diddly for him.

i think what always bothered me the most about the whole bp situation though was that they tried to spin it in their favor by saying that ramon vazquez was a so-called "better fit". sorry but that just ranks right up there with bill belichick infamously saying he had cut bernie kosar because of his "diminishing skills" when nothing could be further from the truth. if you ask me, when team representatives say such things like that, it's like peeing on somebody's head and expecting them to believe it's only raining. i think cleveland fans are just a little more astute than that. just please don't insult our intelligence.

[statmasta]

Herm should be here soon for support

Speak of the Herm & he shall appear.

It's like the Bat Signal.

I don't feel like speculating about Eric Wedge's racial sensitivities is any different than blasting Brandon Phillips's character and personality sight unseen. I just don't.

Clearly.

Neither you nor Eck do.

The difference being Jennifer documented the points in regard to Phillips, he admitted to some of them and others have spoken to it as well.

However, it's basically you, Eck, BP and Milton Bradley's mother who throw the race card down at Wedge's feet. Unlless you there are documents and links I'm missing.

I have zero against BP. Love watching good ballplayers. I don't think you, Eck and Mrs bradley can say the same as to Wedge. Like I said, the race card is often pulled from empty pockets.

I think Eric Wedge is a small man with a small mind. I think he's a 2009 manager with a 1909 brain.

Not hard for me to believe such a man would have... problems with certain kinds of players.

Tony LaRussa had problems with Anthony Reyes
Joe Maddon had problems with Delmon Young.

Are those "small men with small minds", too?

[Jennifer]

i cant believe this is still being debated.

Actually, I find this thread teriffic and not because of the unduly kind compliments. This is the first thread in years on Phillips that contains so much thoughtful, intelligent and well written posts about Phillips -- irrespective of whether they agree or disagree with me.

It is threads like this with a diversity of intelligent opinions that remind me why I love message boards so much and was reluctant to write for TCF

[Jennifer]

Herm should be here soon for support

Speak of the Herm & he shall appear.

It's like the Bat Signal.

I don't feel like speculating about Eric Wedge's racial sensitivities is any different than blasting Brandon Phillips's character and personality sight unseen. I just don't.

Clearly.

Neither you nor Eck do.

The difference being Jennifer documented the points in regard to Phillips, he admitted to some of them and others have spoken to it as well.

However, it's basically you, Eck, BP and Milton Bradley's mother who throw the race card down at Wedge's feet. Unlless you there are documents and links I'm missing.

I have zero against BP. Love watching good ballplayers. I don't think you, Eck and Mrs bradley can say the same as to Wedge. Like I said, the race card is often pulled from empty pockets.

I think Eric Wedge is a small man with a small mind. I think he's a 2009 manager with a 1909 brain.

Not hard for me to believe such a man would have... problems with certain kinds of players.

Tony LaRussa had problems with Anthony Reyes
Joe Maddon had problems with Delmon Young.

Are those "small men with small minds", too?

Well if you are going to pick on poor Herm let me pile on.

Jim Leyland got rid of Dimitri Young for his attitude. Ozzie had a player demoted because he wouldn't throw at a Tribesman. Nomar was traded because the Boston organization didn't like his attitude. Torre got rid of a pitcher who's name I've forgotten (its described in "Living on the Edge)" because he wouldn't follow instruction. Bradley after the Expos and the Tribe got rid of because of his attitude and how many subsequent teams he played for didn't try to re-sign him because of his attitude?

[hermanfontenot]

Tony LaRussa had problems with Anthony Reyes
Joe Maddon had problems with Delmon Young.

Are those "small men with small minds", too?

I don't care what Tony LaRussa or Joe Maddon do. I don't root for the Cardinals and the Devil Rays.

[statmasta]

Tony LaRussa had problems with Anthony Reyes
Joe Maddon had problems with Delmon Young.

Are those "small men with small minds", too?

I don't care what Tony LaRussa or Joe Maddon do. I don't root for the Cardinals and the Devil Rays.

But it does matter.

You want to get rid of Wedge because you think he won't win a championship, right? And you think his inability to deal with concieted players is part of why he can't win, correct?

Yet, LaRussa has won a World Series, and Maddon turned the worst franchise in baseball into AL Champions, and both of them have had similar episodes with difficult players.

[Jennifer]

Tony LaRussa had problems with Anthony Reyes
Joe Maddon had problems with Delmon Young.

Are those "small men with small minds", too?

I don't care what Tony LaRussa or Joe Maddon do. I don't root for the Cardinals and the Devil Rays.

You may not care but you evaded the question asked.

Come'on Herm you are better than that.

[CDAV6]

There is no regret from me on the trade of Phillips. Looking at this team now, their attitudes, chemistry, and their work ethic make me proud to be an Indians fan. I personally like Wedge and Shapiro but know they bleed red just like any other human. That being said, they are going to screw up at times and I myself live in a glass house. So there will be no stone throwing from here, but I do reserve the right to disagree. The only move that I strongly urged against and still don't understand is not keeping Guthrie. Great attitude, work ethic, coachability, not to mention physical ability. They praised his makeup and everything about the kid. My point being, why do so many folks get worked up about Phillips when Guthrie is in the same league and plays a position of greater need? Sometimes things just don't go the way you would like.

It was a great article and I hope all those still disgruntled take the time to read it and finally put the issue to rest. Go Tribe!

[DrPoove]

It was three years ago. Any good, knowledgable Tribe fan (which includes everyone in this thread) is aware of the ramifications on other positions and subsequent trades that were the result of a bad, bad decision to trade Brandon Phillips.

Shapiro has admitted the mistake and appears to have learned from it, which is all anyone without a Flying DeLorean can ask for. Shapiro is in charge of player personnel and IMHO the burden of fault falls on him.

Anyone who is expecting/wanting an apology from Uncle Eric or BP I have a news flash for you. It's NOT going to happen. Whoever pointed out Shapiro's "taking one for the team" by admitting fault should tell you not to expect anything from Wedge. Jennifer's article outlined BP's flip-flop on his contribution to the situation so I doubt we hear anything from him either.

Wedge chooses not to address it. BP chooses to do the chicken dance whenever he hits an RBI single against the Tribe. To each their own.

My point is it takes two to tango. Both Wedge and Phillips contributed to Phillips' departure. Shapiro was the knucklehead who pulled the trigger. He admitted he was wrong. We can not go back and un-trade. We all know the ramifications that happened after the trade.

I appreciate both sides of the argument but it's a three year old argument. Informed Tribe fans know what happened. Personally, I don't need Brandon Phillips shoved down my (expletive deleted) throat in every single Tribe thread or his name brought up when he goes 10-22 in Spring Training.

It was a dumb move. Most people think it was a dumb move. It's three years old. I choose to move on and bitch about Wedge's handling of the bullpen and if Shapiro should have gotten Adam Dunn or not instead of a three year old issue.

To constantly "grind" upon BP in every thread, pro or con, is getting very old, IMHO.

[jameseboy]

Actually the whole BP thing is so messed up and twisted over time there is little that makes much sense any more.

I totally disagree the BP trade was a bad trade..the kid we traded was a arrogant clubhouse cancer who had little or no chance of success as a back up second baseman. I said at the time if I had a lousy team like Kansas City I would have grabbed him in a heartbeat and put him at shortstop and gotten an all star someday. Thats as a starting shortstop not as a back up infielder.

Blame Wedge if you must but thats bs too. A better fit makes sense.

Phillips was brought up too early, by Charlie Manual if I recall, and left in too long. When sent down after hitting 210 he whined and complained..give me a break.

To me the biggest mistake was playing him at second and Jhonny Peralta at short. None the less when Peralta showed what he could do and made the club all Phillips could do was say hey I see they want power and try to muscle everything out. Hardly the sign of maturity.

He had the shouting match with Ferrell, he told everyone since he was out of options he knew he would get his chance now with Cleveland or someone else. Do I blame him for that?? No I understand that but if he wanted the backup job with the Tribe he would have been saying things like I just wanna help the team..I will be glad to play once a week if thats what it takes etc etc. No he wanted to be a starter and he didnt care if it was here or not. If he could start here fine otherwise he wanted out and he made that crystal clear.

He was the perfect fit for a team that was going nowhere, one where he could do what he wanted and never mind the team. I pulled for him to be the starter but it wasnt going to happen and under those circumstances trading him for whatever we could get made perfect sense.

[TitoFrancona]

So many posts to respond to.

First off, what part of BP's ability to play 3rd, 2nd and short (all extremely well) says he can't handle the utility role?

Secondly: Please remind me where Vazques ended up that season? If I'm not mistaken he was cut. Which of course means he couldn't handle the job that Wedge felt he was ideal for. Bad decision there. Nobody can deny it. He was cut. That says all you need to know.

Thirdly, please someone tell me how Wedge's announcement that they (Vazques and Brandon) were in direct competition for the utilty role, was won by Vazques. Brandon out hit him, out fielded him, out ran him. He was in every phase of the game - better than Vazques. Yet, Vazques was handed the job. Maybe Wedge wasn't lying, but he certainly didn't give it to the guy who won the job outright. If he didn't lie, he did change his mind with no regard to keeping the best player.

Fourthly, Brandon came to spring training with a list of things they wanted to see him do and he did everything they asked of him. Hit to the opposite field, was more patient at the plate, fielded every position well and so far as I know had a great attitude. But somehow it wasn't enough.

And lastly, isn't one of the manager's jobs to be able to handle the different personalities of 25+ players he has to deal with? Please show me any team that has nothing but model citizens on their roster - please. Just show me one team. Every manager has to deal with a player (usually more than 1) who isn't exactly the perfect citizen. Somehow, they handle it. Why couldn't Wedge? I find it really difficult to believe that Brandon was a cancer. He may have had some attitude problems, but when he came into ST that season, his attitude looked to be pretty damn good.

My guess is it was too late for BP. I'm betting Wedge had already made up his mind before the 1st day of ST.

I'm not a basher of Wedge, but anybody who portrays this as anything but a total fck up by Wedge who simply pouted about BP is simply in denial. Because of the screw up, we still have a wasted roster space by the name of Barfield and we would have more than likely had Kouz as our starting 3rd baseman. Naturally, I'm thrilled with DeRosa, but that's a moot point.

[dazindiansfanuk]

And lastly, isn't one of the manager's jobs to be able to handle the different personalities of 25+ players he has to deal with? Please show me any team that has nothing but model citizens on their roster - please. Just show me one team. Every manager has to deal with a player (usually more than 1) who isn't exactly the perfect citizen.

The question is though, how many of those so-called difficult players have actually already established themselves as serious productive talent? I think you'll struggle to find many young players that are allowed to act up in the way that Phillips did with the Tribe.

I'm going to leave this topic here because, frankly, I couldn't care less about Brandon Phillips. But, if Phillips acted (attitude-wise) like he did with the Tribe on a Torre Yankees team or a LaRussa team would he have been treated any differently by management? I don't think so!

Now, maybe he would've stuck longer on those teams because there were veteran presences to help police him - I'm sure you'll all agree that most people, no matter who they are, find it easier to take advice/criticism from their peers more than their superiors. But, the Indians team that Phillips came up on probably didn't have that veteran presence to help keep him in line seeing as they were still rebuilding at the time.

[TouchEmAllTime]

It was three years ago. Any good, knowledgable Tribe fan (which includes everyone in this thread) is aware of the ramifications on other positions and subsequent trades that were the result of a bad, bad decision to trade Brandon Phillips.

Shapiro has admitted the mistake and appears to have learned from it, which is all anyone without a Flying DeLorean can ask for. Shapiro is in charge of player personnel and IMHO the burden of fault falls on him.

Anyone who is expecting/wanting an apology from Uncle Eric or BP I have a news flash for you. It's NOT going to happen. Whoever pointed out Shapiro's "taking one for the team" by admitting fault should tell you not to expect anything from Wedge. Jennifer's article outlined BP's flip-flop on his contribution to the situation so I doubt we hear anything from him either.

Wedge chooses not to address it. BP chooses to do the chicken dance whenever he hits an RBI single against the Tribe. To each their own.

My point is it takes two to tango. Both Wedge and Phillips contributed to Phillips' departure. Shapiro was the knucklehead who pulled the trigger. He admitted he was wrong. We can not go back and un-trade. We all know the ramifications that happened after the trade.

I appreciate both sides of the argument but it's a three year old argument. Informed Tribe fans know what happened. Personally, I don't need Brandon Phillips shoved down my (expletive deleted) throat in every single Tribe thread or his name brought up when he goes 10-22 in Spring Training.

It was a dumb move. Most people think it was a dumb move. It's three years old. I choose to move on and bitch about Wedge's handling of the bullpen and if Shapiro should have gotten Adam Dunn or not instead of a three year old issue.

To constantly "grind" upon BP in every thread, pro or con, is getting very old, IMHO.

I think Jennifer's article will hopefully be the moratorium on this subject. I applaud her for her research, and the comparison to Blake's numbers was interesting, nice work Jen. I think that if Josh Barfield would have been remotely successful these last couple years, we wouldn't be talking about BP still to this day. But after reading the article and seeing those numbers, one realizes this guy isn't exactly Chase Utley like alot of his defenders talk him up to be. Yes, moving him created a hole that to this day is shaky, but ultimately I think this guy would have been the preverbial "cancer", sorry I hate when I hear that word anymore too. Yes Wedge comes off as a little stubborn in this case, and Shapiro saying it wasn't worth the trouble over the 25th guy, is saying I was was wrong but...but again as the article shows, statistics don't lie, and BP doesn't sound like a team guy, which is why he fits nicely with the Reds, clearly a team that mirrors the Pirates year after year. He is on a team where he can have his I'm the man attitude and it won't impact whether the Reds lose 85 or 90 games.

[hermanfontenot]

Well, I don’t know anything about the Anthony Reyes situation. And all I know about the Delmon Young situation is that the Devil Rays got value for him. They got a guy who won a Game 7, if I’m not mistaken.

See, my problem with Brandon Phillips isn’t that they moved him. Had they moved him earlier, the previous winner, had it been a “baseball decision” that would have been different. Sometimes you blow those kinds of trades, but that happens.

My problems are that they went through the charade of a spring training competition and then just dumped him when their options were at their fewest, that it wasn’t a “baseball decision” it was a personality decision, and… there was nothing behind BP on the farm.

For a club that needs to be efficient with its resources, dumping a young, cheap player at a position of little organizational depth because the manager doesn’t like him seems anything but. BP was a young guy with an ego. He wasn’t a bundle of rage like Milton Bradley who’d been a pain in the ass everywhere he landed. Nothing in BP’s past gives me a notion that just kicking him to the curb was rational or intelligent.

The interests of the team were to hang on to him, if they couldn’t get value. The manager put his personal interests ahead of that of the team. That to me is small.

I really can’t understand why anyone justifies it even now. Just admit it was dumb to get rid of him, and we can all move on. Believe it or not, this regime was not conferred on us from heaven. They are human, they are very fallible, and they do dumb things from time to time. This was one of them. It’s okay to admit it.

And no, BP is not all that and a bowl of Crispix. I know this.

[Jennifer]

First off, what part of BP's ability to play 3rd, 2nd and short (all extremely well) says he can't handle the utility role?

Phillips had the ability to play third base "excellently." What do you base that on? He has never a single inning at third in a professional game. One of the stated reasons for going with Vasquez (whether you think it bogus not) was that Vasquez could play third and Phillips couldn't.

Or alternatively is your assertion a clever way to say while he never played third your opinion is that he would have been "excellent."

[pup]

The problem is thinking Wedge "did not like him". He may not have. I think there was a point in time he did not like Cliff Lee as well. And Jhonny Peralta.

Now what Wedge did think, from what I can gather in this little brain of mine, is that Brandon Philips was a head case (he was). He thought he deserved to be a star (he didn't and isn't). And a starter. He did not think he could help the team playing 1-2 times per week. That his head would drift. That his swing would get loose. He also believed, again in my opinion, that the first time Fat Ronnie took an 0-8, someone would put a microphone in front of Brandon Philips and he would begin to complain, because he was better than Ronnie Belliard and should be playing.

The INDIANS made a bad choice. From Shapiro on down. They all got together and put their thoughts on the table. Wedge wanted him gone for the above reasons. Some probably agreed. some surely did not. At that point, it is up to Mark Shapiro to make a decision. He did. At that time, there is nobody else to blame. Shapiro makes the decisions. You cannot say he made a bad one. Because you do not know that in fact all of the things I said above would not happen. I am pretty sure though that Shapiro tried to move him to more than the Reds. And he felt the best offer was a single A bullpen guy. Should tell you what some of the other organizations in baseball thought of Brandon as well.

[statmasta]

Tony LaRussa had problems with Anthony Reyes
Joe Maddon had problems with Delmon Young.

Are those "small men with small minds", too?

Oh, and Terry Francona couldn't deal with Manny Ramirez.

ok I'm done now

[Stu]

And Stu, you sound jealous. I doubt many of us know or care what Jennifer looks like. That was a great article, one that caused me to violate my personal commandment against posting BP related material.

who said anything about what she looks like?

ive been a big enough loser for my life to be on enough forums to know that when a girl posts on them, especially on sports or racing forums, guys fall over themselves over it.

theres been a ton of great articles on TCF over the years (none by me, so i dont know why there would be jealousy involved) and no one has gotten this level of attention before.

and its not so much that im complaining about it, i just find it comical.

[TitoFrancona]

Tony LaRussa had problems with Anthony Reyes
Joe Maddon had problems with Delmon Young.

Are those "small men with small minds", too?

Oh, and Terry Francona couldn't deal with Manny Ramirez.

ok I'm done now

Wrong. The players couldn't deal with Manny Ramirez. They're the ones who went to Francona and told him they wanted Manny gone.

[statmasta]

Tony LaRussa had problems with Anthony Reyes
Joe Maddon had problems with Delmon Young.

Are those "small men with small minds", too?

Oh, and Terry Francona couldn't deal with Manny Ramirez.

ok I'm done now

Wrong. The players couldn't deal with Manny Ramirez. They're the ones who went to Francona and told him they wanted Manny gone.

And when Francona wanted Manny in the lineup, he couldn't get him in the game because Manny wanted to sit. Manny played when Manny said he wanted to play. That's how it worked in Boston.

[The Tribe Zone]

And when Francona wanted Manny in the lineup, he couldn't get him in the game because Manny wanted to sit. Manny played when Manny said he wanted to play. That's how it worked in Boston.

I'm not following.....So the arguement is, Wedgie , with all his experience in dealing with high dollar future HOF vets like Manny, could make Manny play, and Francona couldn't make BP play either?

I think we need another article written, it will sell like hotcakes....I already have the title for it....

Wedgie:Portrait of a Baseball Genuis




Anyhow Jennifer, you were right. I didn't change my tune about the mess with BP. In fact, It made my beliefs stronger.....

For something completely different, I added my take on my site....it was silly, had some nudity (not me), and made me laugh, which is good.

http://clevelandsportszone.com/tribe2/i ... icseen#new

I will say, Tito and I aren't far off, and I took one of his posts a bit further, before I had seen his....

[davemanddd]

you wanna know how to stop all the grousing back and forth on the topic of brandon phillips once and for all??? well, i have the solution. no, actually, i'm going to give credit where credit is due and give it to fictional indians catcher jake taylor in the movie "major league" who said it best when he said:

"just win the whole fucking thing".

sorry about the gratuitous use of the "f-word" there, but it is a direct quote.

anyway, to be honest with you, i find it quite interesting that this article comes on the heels of the recent "feel of the fan" post which complained about how low the comments have stooped on these forums to where everybody is cussing profusely and calling people names and degrading each others mothers, wives, sisters, manhood etc. without hardly any pseudo-intelligent opinions and valid arguments on either side of the ledger being brought forth. it's like nobody understands that it's ok to disagree and that nobody ever thinks alike 100% of the time. after all, opinions are like assholes - everybody has one and no 2 are exactly alike.

as soon as i saw the article title, i thought "jennifer, what are you trying to do, start world war iii"??? i just had to cringe because i knew it would only elicit every single negative post ever written about the subject over the last 3 years all over again. lord knows i've done my fair share of negative posting about the subject and i really didn't care to rehash all of them again and yet here i am doing just that. i swear i'm a glutton for punishment. hee-hee!!!

no but seriously though, had the indians not crashed-n-burned over the entire 2006 season or choked away their 3-1 alcs series lead in 2007 or fouled up the first half of 2008 and just won the world series in any of those years, i seriously doubt we would even be having this discussion now. until such time that the indians actually win the world series, it's like that's all we have left to hold onto is our own company-loving misery.

look, i understand everyone's frustration. hell, i'm just as frustrated as anybody else. i was born in 1965, one year after the last time any cleveland pro sports team won a championship (no, soccer doesn't count) of any kind when the browns won the nfl title all the way back in 1964 over 45 years ago. i have long blamed myself for all this perpetual failure and still don't quite understand why i have never just switched allegiances to teams that actually win. but then i see one of these turncoats wearing their steelers, yankees or celtics gear and then it snaps me back to reality.

one of these days, the indians, the cavs or the browns are going to win a title and all will be forgotten. we will all smile, yell, scream, jump for joy and dance around like fools before we all break down then and just cry when that day comes. who knows??? it might just be this year for the cavs and it might even be this year for the tribe too??? brandon phillips would be nothing more than just another footnote in indians history then. we can only hope.

excellent article, jennifer. as fictional indians "major league" manager lou brown said "don't ever fucking do it again".