Jennifer on BP

[Prosecutor]

This is a very entertaining and informative thread. Yes, it was a mistake to trade Phillips; Shapiro admitted it. Tony's point that Belliard was in the final year of his contract and the Tribe had absolutely nothing in the farm system at 2nd base is key. They should have kept Phillips on the team and sent Vasquez to Buffalo. Then if Phillips groused too much they could always trade him and bring up Vasquez or Inglett.

Of course, they never should have been in the position of having to either keep Phillips in the majors as a UIF or trade him for a low level prospect. They burned his options before he was ready to play in the big leagues and painted themselves into a corner.

In the final analysis, it's much ado about nothing, in my opinion. Phillips is not a star; he's an average 2nd baseman as Jennifer showed. He's excellent defensively and hits more HR's than most at his position, but his strikeouts and low OBP largely offset that.

Then there's the ripple effect. We traded Kouz to fill the 2nd base hole, but Kouz has turned out to be an average 3rd baseman. He hit .260 last year with 87 RBI, which is good, but his OBP was an abysmal .299 and his defense is suspect.

The Crisp trade would not have happened if Kouz was still on the team, so that is another ripple effect. But Crisp wasn't much of a player after leaving Cleveland, and Shoppach has turned into a very good catcher, so that deal is probably a wash even with Marte being a bust.

Bottom line is that the players we traded (Phillips, Kouz, Crisp, and Riske) have been decent but not great. We ended up getting some good players back in Shoppach and Jeff Stevens, who was used to acquire DeRosa.

Great article by Jen and a very interesting discussion, but at the end of the day I'm not sure the Indians record would have been much different over the last three years without those trades, and I don't think we're any worse off today because of them.

The biggest benefit is that the Tribe made a mistake and learned from it, which will hopefully prevent the same mistake again. And they were lucky enough to get away with it without suffering too much damage, mainly because they were smart enough to make sure Shoppach was included in the Crisp deal, and they picked the right minor league pitcher from the Reds system.

[redneckofsc]

[TitoFrancona]

Wrong. The players couldn't deal with Manny Ramirez. They're the ones who went to Francona and told him they wanted Manny gone.

And when Francona wanted Manny in the lineup, he couldn't get him in the game because Manny wanted to sit. Manny played when Manny said he wanted to play. That's how it worked in Boston.[/quote]

And how is that situation anything like Wedge and Brandon? Are you seriuosly saying that Phillips is anything like Manny personality-wise?

[redneckofsc]

Manny quit on his team. Bottom line. He pulled himself from games and tried not to perform. The proof is in how crappy (crappy for him, still good numbers) he played with Boston, then his numbers with LA were insane.

BP never quit on his team. And the argument with Farrell was never confirmed, I am not saying it didnt happen, but it was never confirmed. BP wanted to play, and he wanted to be in the majors. I have no problem with that.

If you were a 21 year old top prospect, and could be making $300,000 a year, but instead you got sent to the minors to make $25,000 in favor of a washed out never has been veteran, you would have done the same thing.

[pup]

Manny quit on his team. Bottom line. He pulled himself from games and tried not to perform. The proof is in how crappy (crappy for him, still good numbers) he played with Boston, then his numbers with LA were insane.

BP never quit on his team. And the argument with Farrell was never confirmed, I am not saying it didnt happen, but it was never confirmed. BP wanted to play, and he wanted to be in the majors. I have no problem with that.

If you were a 21 year old top prospect, and could be making $300,000 a year, but instead you got sent to the minors to make $25,000 in favor of a washed out never has been veteran, you would have done the same thing.

Not if I was hitting .210

[peeker643]

And Stu, you sound jealous. I doubt many of us know or care what Jennifer looks like. That was a great article, one that caused me to violate my personal commandment against posting BP related material.

who said anything about what she looks like?

ive been a big enough loser for my life to be on enough forums to know that when a girl posts on them, especially on sports or racing forums, guys fall over themselves over it.

theres been a ton of great articles on TCF over the years (none by me, so i dont know why there would be jealousy involved) and no one has gotten this level of attention before.

and its not so much that im complaining about it, i just find it comical.

It is what it is Stu. It generated interest and people are talking about it. Your posts sound either condescending or sexist.

Neither one is admirable.

Only one poster in the thread who stated it's cuz Jennifer is female that the thread has 800 views and over 100 responses.

[statmasta]

Wrong. The players couldn't deal with Manny Ramirez. They're the ones who went to Francona and told him they wanted Manny gone.

And when Francona wanted Manny in the lineup, he couldn't get him in the game because Manny wanted to sit. Manny played when Manny said he wanted to play. That's how it worked in Boston.

I'm not saying the situation is similar, I'm just proving to you that Francona couldn't deal with Manny, because you refuted that.

[statmasta]

And when Francona wanted Manny in the lineup, he couldn't get him in the game because Manny wanted to sit. Manny played when Manny said he wanted to play. That's how it worked in Boston.

I'm not following.....So the arguement is, Wedgie , with all his experience in dealing with high dollar future HOF vets like Manny, could make Manny play, and Francona couldn't make BP play either?

I think we need another article written, it will sell like hotcakes....I already have the title for it....

Wedgie:Portrait of a Baseball Genuis




Anyhow Jennifer, you were right. I didn't change my tune about the mess with BP. In fact, It made my beliefs stronger.....

For something completely different, I added my take on my site....it was silly, had some nudity (not me), and made me laugh, which is good.

http://clevelandsportszone.com/tribe2/i ... icseen#new

I will say, Tito and I aren't far off, and I took one of his posts a bit further, before I had seen his....

The point is all managers have guys they can't deal with, and there's no reason to bash Wedge endlessly for having problems with Phillips.

[davemanddd]

statmasta, i love your avatar. that is who should be the next manager of the cleveland indians - tony pena!!!

[ACrank]

statmasta, i love your avatar. that is who should be the next manager of the cleveland indians - tony pena!!!

Yeah, i for one would love to see the Indians hire someone who quit on his previous team...

(/sarcasm off)

Back on topic - great article (of course mainly because i agree with it 100%). My only point with the whole thing is when Shapiro talks about having to basically give Phillips away - I remember that there were two offers on the table for Phillips during the off season - the Royals (i believe) and Braves had both offered major league relievers for him.

[Stu]

Only one poster in the thread who stated it's cuz Jennifer is female that the thread has 800 views and over 100 responses.

whatever, you really think people are going to admit that its because she's a woman?

[peeker643]

Only one poster in the thread who stated it's cuz Jennifer is female that the thread has 800 views and over 100 responses.

you really think people are going to admit that its because she's a woman?

No dude. I really think people really don't care that she's a woman. Except for one. I thought that I was pretty clear actually.

A lot of racists don't they're think they're racists. Maybe this works the same way? You can't believe no one else shares your views when most just don't. Maybe? I don't know.



111 responses and 888+ views.

[pup]

Jennifer is a chic? No wonder it takes her 14,000 words to say anything.

My bad. Now the teddy bear is OK.

[peeker643]

Jennifer is a chic? No wonder it takes her 14,000 words to say anything.

My bad. Now the teddy bear is OK.

It's a message board. You are what ya wanna be, right? Who really knows whether or not Stu is a cross-dressing tranny? More importantly, who gives a fuck when it comes down to what he says regarding the topics? I agree with a lot of his stuff. Not this though. I think it's about the weakest shit he's brought.

[Stu]

i guess we'll find out as she continues to write and if guys keep creating topics just to say, nice work jen. sure its nice, it just doesnt happen to any of the male writers. its nothing i have against jen, im just pointing out a recent observation.

im actually impressed by this forum most of the time, compared to others, guys treat women who know sports with respect. its amazing how a pretty girl can derail threads at other places.

[davemanddd]

statmasta, i love your avatar. that is who should be the next manager of the cleveland indians - tony pena!!!

Yeah, i for one would love to see the Indians hire someone who quit on his previous team...

(/sarcasm off)

Back on topic - great article (of course mainly because i agree with it 100%). My only point with the whole thing is when Shapiro talks about having to basically give Phillips away - I remember that there were two offers on the table for Phillips during the off season - the Royals (i believe) and Braves had both offered major league relievers for him.

i always have to laugh at everyone who makes the same gawddam comment about pena supposedly "quitting" the royals everytime i say he should be manager of the tribe, as if they have never quit a bad job. i have quit a number of bad jobs in my lifetime because they were just that - a bad job.

if your employer is a douche-bag and he treats you like dirt, doesn't give you a raise when you clearly deserve one, creates a hostile work environment, constantly puts obstacles in your way, undermines your authority and takes away all your resources that you need to do your job better, how long do you think you are going to stay there, especially when there are better jobs available with a lot less hassle and are willing to pay you more???

besides, is what pena did in kc any worse than what saint mike hargrove did in seattle??? not hardly and yet you can bet your bottom dollar if the indians were to re-hire hargrove to come back and replace wedge, everybody in cleveland would certainly be jumping for joy then.

i swear, the royals front office is even cheaper than the dolan discount gang and after pena won the a.l. manager of the year award in 2003, they undermined his ability to manage the team by not involving him in personnel decisions, destroyed their chemistry, traded away his better players and didn't get very much in return for them and still expected him to win just as much if not more than before. dude now makes much more moolah just being hitting coach for the yankees and has a lot more job stability there than what he ever did as manager of kc.

just like players go someplace else and go onto bigger and better things, managers/coaches do too. just look at joe torre. he used to manage the cardinals, braves and mets but didn't do squat with them, but all of a sudden he lands in new york and wins the world series in 4 of his first 5 seasons there. roy williams was always a bridesmaid in the ncaa tournament, but as soon as he "quits" kansas and goes to north carolina, dude wins the title in just his 2nd year. shoot, just look in our own backyard and tell me if anyone ever thought that bill belichick was going to win 3 super bowls with the patriots after all the crap he pulled here in cleveland???

all i'm saying is that while pena was the manager of the royals, they were just a fun team to watch as they hustled and busted their humps all the time. they were an aggressive team on the base paths and in the field who were always at the top of their game, especially when it came down to performing the fundamental aspects of the game. pena was more cheerleader and dad than ringmaster and policeman like so many other managers seem to be these days and i just think his "seize the day" management style would be a nice change of pace for the tribe and could have been the missing ingredient that could have gotten them over the hump in both 2005 & 2007, something that wedge and his "take one game at a time", "maintain the process", "see how things play out" style just was unable to do.

i honestly don't think that pena would have had as hard a time of getting along with phillips as what wedge did. with wedge it's "my way or the highway". with pena though, i think he just has a little more patience and is much more of a teacher and motivator. he just figures out a way to get the most out of a player and gets them to over-achieve, which is exactly what he did with a rag-tag bunch of kids and grizzled veterans for the royals in 2003 when he won the a.l. manager of the year award.

but this is all just water under the bridge now at this point. like i said in an earlier post, just win the world series and all of these arguments will be moot. everyone will finally all just shut up and we will all eat, drink and be merry because then we would be champions for the first time in over 45 years. we can only hope.

[British_Pharaoh]

I wish Jennifer was on me

[e0y2e3]

And Stu, you sound jealous. I doubt many of us know or care what Jennifer looks like. That was a great article, one that caused me to violate my personal commandment against posting BP related material.

who said anything about what she looks like?

ive been a big enough loser for my life to be on enough forums to know that when a girl posts on them, especially on sports or racing forums, guys fall over themselves over it.

theres been a ton of great articles on TCF over the years (none by me, so i dont know why there would be jealousy involved) and no one has gotten this level of attention before.

and its not so much that im complaining about it, i just find it comical.

*ahem*

This is a flat out lie.

Mansfield is like 100 for 125 on getting his articles linked in the Browns forum and Buff would be batting 100% if not for the fact that he writes every single day (he is still probably over .300)

Hnat deserves more, but he quit writing every day....

And Peeker and Pup cuddle after every single message board recap article...

[e0y2e3]

And to add, I don't really do the MLB thing with enough passion to have a very deep grasp on the mental fibers that define the decisions and Jenn has been one of the few posters over the years I have read on many a board (I only ever lurked Ink) because she brings it pretty damn well when it comes to the Tribe. Not to mention that her prior work on the Cardinals board on MLB economics was fantastic (along with all the men that contributed there).

Stu, you are just wrong here.

[peeker643]

And Peeker and Pup cuddle after every single message board recap article...

After we go out for ice cream and pet ponies in the park.

I'm not gonna lie. You probably just fell off the list for this week's publication though.

[Stu]

Stu, you are just wrong here.

Time will tell. No more discussion needed (which I guess can be said about BP too).

[e0y2e3]

Stu, you are just wrong here.

Time will tell. No more discussion needed (which I guess can be said about BP too).

Bu....bu....but what is your counter to Mansjbfield's articles getting linked every time they are written and buff landing at least weekly links?

If you want to open this can of worms you at least have to counter cold hard facts...

Ya know?

[Stu]

Stu, you are just wrong here.

Time will tell. No more discussion needed (which I guess can be said about BP too).

Bu....bu....but what is your counter to Mansjbfield's articles getting linked every time they are written and buff landing at least weekly links?

If you want to open this can of worms you at least have to counter cold hard facts...

Ya know?

Mansfield must be pretty hot then.

[WiscTribeFan]

statmasta, i love your avatar. that is who should be the next manager of the cleveland indians - tony pena!!!

Will statmasta quit here like Pena quit on the Royals?

besides, is what pena did in kc any worse than what saint mike hargrove did in seattle??? not hardly and yet you can bet your bottom dollar if the indians were to re-hire hargrove to come back and replace wedge, everybody in cleveland would certainly be jumping for joy then.

No, and no-one will hire him either. I don't want Hargrove back, I'm sure a lot of folks feel the same way. Ever wonder why Pena has never been rumored as a potential managerial candidate? Because he quit on his team when the going got tough. Lack of ability to deal with adversity is not a trait you want in a manager, and he'll never manage in the bigs again because of it, I'd bet.

[Bigfist]

Serious question: Have the Indians ever had anyone make it to the Hall-of-Fame that they traded away (before there career peaked)?

Dennis Eckersley comes to mind. A couple of others, such as Roger Maris and Tommy John, come close.

[redneckofsc]

Can we get back to talking about Brandon Phillips or atleast Jeremy Guthrie.

[ArtGold]

Sure, we can get back to Phillips. In about 2300 plate appearances he has an overall OPS+ of 87, while Ronnie Belliard has had about 5100 plate appearances and has an overall OPS+ of 96, and Mark Ellis, who has had about 3000 plate appearances has an overall OPS+ of 99.

Some others using the overall stats, Placido Polanco is a 99 (about 5100 plate appearances) while going back a little bit in history we can see that Tony Bernazard was a 100 (about 4100 plate appearances) as was Carlos Baerga (about 5600 plate appearances).

BTW, Phillips OPS+ for last season was 92.

BTW/BTW - Since I'm also a Phillies fan too, I'll toss in that Chase Utley is a career OPS+ of 128.
BTW/BTW/BTW - Utley is a grinder...


OPS+ - On-Base Percentage + Slugging Percentage normalized for both the park and the league the player played in.

[Prosecutor]

ArtGold, those 2,300 plate appearances include the PA's Phillips had when he was a struggling minor leaguer brought up by the Tribe before he was ready. What is his OPS+ since he arrived in Cincy and became a regular? And how does it compare to Cabrera last year?

[Stu]

ArtGold, those 2,300 plate appearances include the PA's Phillips had when he was a struggling minor leaguer brought up by the Tribe before he was ready. What is his OPS+ since he arrived in Cincy and became a regular? And how does it compare to Cabrera last year?

88, 105, 92 in his 3 years in cincy.

cabrera - 101 in 2007 and 88 in 2008

[ArtGold]

ArtGold, those 2,300 plate appearances include the PA's Phillips had when he was a struggling minor leaguer brought up by the Tribe before he was ready. What is his OPS+ since he arrived in Cincy and became a regular? And how does it compare to Cabrera last year?

Stu beat me to the response, but he is accurate. I tossed in his OPS+ from last season as part of my posting to demonstrate that he didn't have a great season last year.

I don't want to trash the guy, I generally like him and agree with everyone else that letting him go was shortsighted. Like many, many posters, I complained about this when it happened, but they did what they did.

My summary sentiment is that it was a dumb move, but we are only complaining about a decent, not exceptional, player here. I've read hundreds of postings about Phillips, Taveras, Scott and Guthrie etc, and frankly I don't see a huge amount of loss in these guys. Sure, some have gone on to post some decent numbers, but I don't see a "plus" player in the group. Looking at Phillips, the Indians had every reason to believe that (based on past performance and age) Barfield would be at least as good as Phillips. Obviously, he has been a bust so far, but historical records didn't indicate this would happen.

But Phillips is only an OK player, he isn't Chase Utley. Hopefully, between ACab, Valbuena or Cord Phelps, we'll have a long term solution at least as good, if not better, than Phillips.

[Mcreek]

Exceptional job Jennifer especially on the research.

[Jennifer]

I was wrong, wrong, wrong to think that Phillips couldn't do better in the walk department if the season to date is any indicator. He has already walked 11 times in only 56 ABs. His career high is 39 in 2008.

As an aside he is hitting .161/.290/.232/.522.