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Borowski and possibly more?

Unread postby consigliere » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:13 am

Hmmm....seems if they sign Borowski, he may be the new setup man.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindea ... thispage=2

If the Indians do sign Borowski, they'll try to add another late-inning reliever. Keith Foulke and Octavio Dotel are their main targets.

"We want to add depth and experience to the bullpen," Shapiro said. "The best way to do that is through bulk. We added two guys over the weekend [Roberto Hernandez and Aaron Fultz]. I've been saying all along that we want to add more."


So, possibly Borowski in the 8th and one of Foulke/Dotel in the 9th? I may be a little more forgiving if we sign one of Foulke/Dotel to be the closer with Borowski as a backup plan and pitching the 8th. We'll see how this shakes out though.
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Unread postby ACrank » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:21 am

i can understand your pov, but in my mind signing another arm is almost overkill....

unless if its on a minor league/make good contract similar to the signing of Bobby Howry

i really look at the pen as similar to the 04 pen - and that shaped up nicely with the addition of Howry and the return of a healthy Wickman

there are good arms that need to have time to show what they can do - not sure if they are going to get that time

on the other hand if it is a major league signing to a one year contract not sure there are too many bad things to that
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Re: Borowski and possibly more?

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:38 am

Consigliere wrote:Hmmm....seems if they sign Borowski, he may be the new setup man.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindea ... thispage=2

If the Indians do sign Borowski, they'll try to add another late-inning reliever. Keith Foulke and Octavio Dotel are their main targets.

"We want to add depth and experience to the bullpen," Shapiro said. "The best way to do that is through bulk. We added two guys over the weekend [Roberto Hernandez and Aaron Fultz]. I've been saying all along that we want to add more."


So, possibly Borowski in the 8th and one of Foulke/Dotel in the 9th? I may be a little more forgiving if we sign one of Foulke/Dotel to be the closer with Borowski as a backup plan and pitching the 8th. We'll see how this shakes out though.



Dotel should not close

whenever he has been given the opportunity he has cocked it up 71 saves in 100 opportunites? 71% success rate

thats 35 saves if he gets 50 save situations

i'd rather have Dotel seeting up with either Borowski or Foulke closing

but since Borowski is all but an Indian
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:21 am

I'd be down with Fultz, Hernandez, Borowski and one of Dotel/Foulke. Leaves three spots for Betancourt and two young guys. One of the young guys being Cabrera, and the other probably one of the lefties Sipp/Perez/Lara.

Jason Davis? Bye, see ya. Sikorski? See ya, you should have been cut months ago. Matt Miller? Go to Buffalo and get stronger (he has an option left). Guthrie? See ya.

There is also the possiblity someone like Betancourt or Cabrera might be dealt to get another need, which may help make better sense why they would go after a 4th bully guy. Trade or not, IMO, they need a 4th guy.
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Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:31 am

we need a long man in the pen and JD came on strong in the second half

and miller owns righties so its gonna be tough for the managers to model the new pen

a 13 man pitching staff might solve the problem
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Unread postby pup » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:37 am

Don't worry, at least one of Miller, Borowski and Dotel will spend enough time on the DL to make it work :bom:
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:29 pm

With a 7-man bullpen, you don't need a long man.

Worst case, you always have Betancourt, Cabrera and one of the young lefties if in need of some innings due to s short start.

If Jason Davis is in this bullpen, then I am on board with the pessimists we have problems.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:31 pm

We got room Consig..... :rambo: :!:
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Unread postby Big Lu » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:58 pm

ESPN, December 6, 2006

Borowski had 36 saves in 43 tries last season for the Florida Marlins. He was close to finalizing a two-year deal last week with Philadelphia, but the Phillies didn't like the results of medical tests performed on his right shoulder.

The Indians had their doctors examine the 35-year-old Tuesday, and apparently felt Borowski was worth taking a chance.


And the Indians "liked" the results of these medical tests? Are we prepared to possibly lose $4.25 million if his shoulder acts up? Was he the best and healthiest save man?

:lol:
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Unread postby pup » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:17 pm

From what I understand, the Phillies were looking at a multi-year deal with him so the results were a little more intimidating to them.

Was he the best and healthiest save man


Best, no. Dotel and Gagne would both be better, in terms of talent.
Healthiest, no. Probably Baez.

Combining the two, yes. He is better than Baez and healthier than the other two.

Hopefully we are not done and a Street/Lidge deal is still in the works. If our bullpen is as it appears now, I do not see how we are better than going into 2006.
Last edited by pup on Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:54 pm

Good signing.

I really think Borowski, right now, is pegged for the 8th inning setup role. Reportedly, they are still looking for another backend guy (Dotel, Foulke, etc).
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Unread postby jjgmyers » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:42 pm

You know what was not a good signing?

J.DNP. Drew for $70 mil. God Almighty!!!

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Unread postby furls » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:44 pm

I am not going to lose my mind over this signing, but I find if very refreshing that the Tribe's efforts are in the right place.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:24 pm

According to Dwags, the Indians are still after Dotel. Dotel wants 3/15 right now, but that pricetag will have to come down. Gagne wants 1 year for 8-10M. Also, we are supposedly persuing Crawford or Baldelli from Tampa.
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Unread postby dpdad » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:41 am

Well, it could turn out to be a good signing. I will give Shapiro credit for addressing the bullpen. But signing a 42 year-old reliever and another reliever with shoulder injury history doesn't send me out to buy tickets. Erik Cassano had a great comment in his posted article that I feel is worth repeating.

The Indians keep talking about building for the long-term. So why are so many of their solutions short-term?


I wish someone from the Cleveland media had the gonads to ask Shapiro this in his next press conference. But I am afraid that I already know the answer.
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Unread postby Big Lu » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:57 pm

But every offseason, the Indians become baseball's Ellis Island, a gateway for baseball's tired, huddled, injury-plagued masses yearning to reclaim their careers.


Once again another great article and so true!

:santa:
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:12 am

dpdad wrote:Well, it could turn out to be a good signing. I will give Shapiro credit for addressing the bullpen. But signing a 42 year-old reliever and another reliever with shoulder injury history doesn't send me out to buy tickets. Erik Cassano had a great comment in his posted article that I feel is worth repeating.

The Indians keep talking about building for the long-term. So why are so many of their solutions short-term?


I wish someone from the Cleveland media had the gonads to ask Shapiro this in his next press conference. But I am afraid that I already know the answer.


I don't see the problem with this thinking, and think the vision makes sense. Long-term: develop and kep your core. Short-term: compliment them with vets on short deals.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:55 am

compliment them with vets on short deals



But shouldn't the vets be head and shoulders above the kids for this to work?
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Unread postby ACrank » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:13 am

if they were, they wouldn't be able to sign one year deals.....
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Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:22 am

if they were, they wouldn't be able to sign one year deals.....



exactly. Which is the problem. When you have limited resources, you have to be right. If Joe Borowski turns into Gil Mota, we are screwed. If David Delucci is Jason Michaels, we are screwed.

That is why you pay the "sure things".
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:53 am

Pup wrote:But shouldn't the vets be head and shoulders above the kids for this to work?


Not really.

How many of the vets we signed in the 90s were better than the "kids" back then of Belle, Baerga, Lofton, Ramirez and Thome? The vets we always signed, were for the most part of complimentary nature and on short 1-2 year deals (Murray, Hershiser, etc). The exception being Martinez whom signed a 3 year deal.
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Unread postby ACrank » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:41 am

What sure things were out there esepcially in relievers?

I'll take Borowski and Hernandez for one year over Speier and Baez for 3-4 years

and i will certainly take Dellucci for 3 years over Soriano and Lee for 5-8 years
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Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:34 pm

How many of the vets we signed in the 90s were better than the "kids" back then of Belle, Baerga, Lofton, Ramirez and Thome? The vets we always signed, were for the most part of complimentary nature and on short 1-2 year deals (Murray, Hershiser, etc). The exception being Martinez whom signed a 3 year deal.


I am not talking about signing guys to take over for Grady, Pronk, Victor, Marte, Blake, Jhonny. I am talking about bringing in a piece for an area of need, left field, power hitting right handed bat, as a complimentary piece. If there is no short term deals available (Alou being the exception and he made his choice), then you have to extend to some longer deals. Is Delucci for 3 really a better investment than Carlos Lee for 5?

I'll take Borowski and Hernandez for one year over Speier and Baez for 3-4 years


Then going into 2007, you are going to be willing to take old man A for a year over someone and the cycle continues. If bullpens are so hit or miss, isn't there just as lilely that the kids we have will be just as good as the vets we bring in? Why not go with the youth in the bullpen, and improve the everyday lineup?
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Unread postby ACrank » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:41 pm

You mean just like last year?

Cabrera and Carmona should have been in set up roles all year, and stayed in set up roles all year.

If Cabrera can be the 7th inning guy out of the pen and show what he can do, he can move into a set up or even closing spot for next season.

Indians did the same thing with Sowers in the starting rotation and it worked fine.

The hope is that Borowski, Hernandez and Fultz pitch better in the pen then Jason Johnson did out of the starting rotation.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:50 pm

Pup wrote:Is Delucci for 3 really a better investment than Carlos Lee for 5?


Absolutely. For $3.5M per and the $2M+ Michaels will command, their production won't be that far off for what Lee is being paid $16-17M per for. Given we have finite resources, I prefer a Michaels/Delucci platoon and instead using that extra money on the bullpen and taking a risk there (Gagne).
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Unread postby Big Lu » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:45 pm

According to Dwags, the Indians are still after Dotel. Dotel wants 3/15 right now, but that pricetag will have to come down.


Dotel agrees to incentive-filled contract with Royals
Dec. 8, 2006
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- Reliever Octavio Dotel and the Kansas City Royals reached a preliminary agreement Friday on a $5 million, one-year contract.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:06 pm

You mean just like last year?

Cabrera and Carmona should have been in set up roles all year, and stayed in set up roles all year.

If Cabrera can be the 7th inning guy out of the pen and show what he can do, he can move into a set up or even closing spot for next season.

Indians did the same thing with Sowers in the starting rotation and it worked fine.


Isn't last year when they went with Graves/Mota/Saurbeck/Karsay plan? That sounds a lot like Hernandez/Borowski/Fultz/Gagne to me. Won't this year's group be taking those same oppurtunities away from Cabrera and Carmona? This just goes to my point about the cycle will never end.

Absolutely. For $3.5M per and the $2M+ Michaels will command, their production won't be that far off for what Lee is being paid $16-17M per for. Given we have finite resources, I prefer a Michaels/Delucci platoon and instead using that extra money on the bullpen and taking a risk there (Gagne).


How far off is not far? To expect anything close to .300/37/116/102 from those two is a pipe dream. To instead spend money on the most volatile portion of a team is ludicrous, especially for someone that is such a large question mark.
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Unread postby ACrank » Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:01 pm

if you are afraid of the cycle never ending, then perhaps the focus of your wrath should be on the coaches developing the young pitching

i think the key is to put Cabrera into a spot where he can't help but succeed - thrusting him into a set up or closer role right away is just not going to work - frankly i'd rather see Cabrera replace Betancourt as the 6th-7th inning guy and have him work his way up into a set up role by the end of the season then work it in reverse....

in other words i'd rather a player,. once he reaches the major league level, earn his promotion and not have it handed to him - because whenever it seems someone gets handed a spot it tends to go poorly (think Brandon Phillips of 2003) which is why i'm going to be holding my breath w/ Andy Marte
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Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:51 pm

if you are afraid of the cycle never ending, then perhaps the focus of your wrath should be on the coaches developing the young pitching


http://swerbsblurbs.com/article_detail.php?id=366
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