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Carlos Lee - 6 Years 100 Million

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Carlos Lee - 6 Years 100 Million

Unread postby swerb » Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:56 pm

WOW

And Manny Ramirez is now officially a bargain.
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Unread postby ACrank » Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:29 am

Yes he is.

Which explains why the Indians are looking into getting him.

The question i still have - do we want someone who quit on his team?
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Unread postby swerb » Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:22 am

Crank, I'll be honest, Manny scares the hell outta me, especially considering what we'd have to give up to get him.

Every year he disappears for KEY stretches with mysterious injuries. I question how much winning really matters to him. He has quit on the Red Sox on a couple different occassions.
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Unread postby Big Lu » Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:54 am

In spite of Manny's childhood lobotomy, he is a pure power hitter and I don't care what he did in Boston.

He probably realizes that he should have stuck with the Indians but with the greedy agents that these guys have, it's all about the money. Multi-millionaires with huge egos.

I would give him another chance.

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Unread postby furls » Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:20 pm

All the free agent signings this year just underscore the point that small market teams are now officially done competing with any regularity.

Carlos Lee is a good player, but 16,000,000 good? seriously?

Soriano 18,000,000?

Mathews 10,000,000?

hmmm, i guess I should start watching some other sport over the summer.
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Unread postby ACrank » Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:30 pm

Swerb wrote:Crank, I'll be honest, Manny scares the hell outta me, especially considering what we'd have to give up to get him.

Every year he disappears for KEY stretches with mysterious injuries. I question how much winning really matters to him. He has quit on the Red Sox on a couple different occassions.


I feel the same - i dont have time to post it but there was an interesting article in the Boston Globe that basically said the same thing. My biggest concern is the Indians FO is going to feel pressure to sell tickets/spend money/make a move that they are going to overpay just to bring Manny back, and its going to bomb.

In spite of Manny's childhood lobotomy, he is a pure power hitter and I don't care what he did in Boston.


if it was a player not previously associated with the Indians who had the same talent as Manny and the same rep as Manny - would you want him that badly?
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Unread postby Big Lu » Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:20 am

if it was a player not previously associated with the Indians who had the same talent as Manny and the same rep as Manny - would you want him that badly?


yes
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Unread postby dpdad » Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:54 am

I would want Manny back in a heartbeat. Despite his occasional brain cramps, Manny is by all accounts well-liked in the clubhouse, and he doesn't have a mean bone in his body.

Oh yeah, and he can hit too. The model of consistency for the past 10 years. 35 HRs, 110 RBI, and a .315 average every year.

Les Levine had a great comment about Manny a few years back that I never forgot. He said that if you were to line up all the Indians players against the fence and pick contestants for a game of Jeopardy, Manny is the last player you would pick. Of course, Manny is also headed for the Hall of Fame.
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Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:56 am

i just heard JD Drew might get 5 years $75m


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Unread postby ACrank » Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:24 am

This was the article i refered to above. Its interesting reading and needs to be considered in any serious discussion of bringing Manny back to the Indians.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/r ... _on_manny/
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Unread postby pup » Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:45 pm

Manny is a loose cannon. He was the first time around and will continue to be. It seemed to have gotten worse throughout his time in Boston and I am willing to believe it was brought on by the pressence of a camera and reporter follwing every move he made. That does not happen here.

This doesn't mean I am 100% confident Manny will be "normal" back in Cleveland, but at this point, what choice is there? This team NEEDS a proven right handed stick in the lineup.
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Unread postby ACrank » Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:48 pm

well of course i disagree with the idea they need a proven right handed stick in the lineup...

the bullpen needs fixed first

& frankly with some of the rumors i am reading about what might be offered for Ramirez, i'd rather see if we could get what other teams want to trade (the Angels with Sheids and Santana first and foremost)
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Unread postby pup » Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:56 pm

What are the rumors? I have not seen any of them. I am not saying to go get him unconditionally.

About the not needing a right handed bat, you have to be joking. If we are hoping that Casey Blake, Ryan Garko, Andy Marte and Jhonny are sufficient, I am a little nervous. Yes we scored runs last year, but that was not this lineup. Brousard/Perez were better than Garko, as bad as Boone was, it was still better than what Marte did. Jhonny is a total hit or miss at this point. Would not be surprised to see him hit .290 or .230. Casey Blake has been every other year for the last 4, so we will see about him.

If there is an acquireable fix for the bullpen, I am all for it. I just don't know where that fix comes from. If it means moving Garko (the most likely of the above list to succeed), then a right handed bat is needed even more.
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Unread postby ACrank » Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:51 am

you listed four bats - whats the odds of one or two of them becoming the RH power bat this team needs? i think good....

i read somewhere the RedSox were interested in Shields and Santana from the Angels (or that the Angels might dangle those two) - i'd rather trade for them then trade for Manny
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Unread postby pup » Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:46 pm

you listed four bats - whats the odds of one or two of them becoming the RH power bat this team needs? i think good....


Garko - above average chance
Peralta, Blake and Marte - well below average chance



i read somewhere the RedSox were interested in Shields and Santana from the Angels (or that the Angels might dangle those two) - i'd rather trade for them then trade for Manny


Sure, if I can have a closer and a good young starter I would take them too.
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Unread postby Big Lu » Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:03 pm

Do you think that you will ever see the Cleveland Indians listed under the "new team" column in this link? I certainly don't. There are some pretty good ballplayers on this list that would certainly help the team!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents

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Unread postby ACrank » Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:55 pm

Here is a question - when did you ever see the Indians name under that list?
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Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:31 pm

Here is a question - when did you ever see the Indians name under that list?


I think that is a little unfair. I assume you are talking about not signing marquee free agents during the "Era of Champions", but they did not need to sign those free agents at that time. We had those type of players at about 5 positions. Now we have them at one position player (Grady) and a DH.
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Unread postby ACrank » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:35 am

Not unfair at all - a legit question.

Pluto had a great comment - i wish i could remember the exact way it was worded, but it was really similar.

Someone basically asked the same question and Pluto gave the same answer i did.

The truth, and most Indians fans can't seem to handle this, is that the Indians were NEVER in the running for any major free agent - and haven't been, outside of the Kenny Lofton's or Robbie Alomar's who gave the Indians a hometown discount.

Yet "fans" whine, moan and complain about the Indians under Dolan never being in the running for a major free agent. They weren't under Jacobs. They weren't under O'Neil. Hell the only times they were was when the Art Dealer from NY (LeFebrve i think his name was) wanted to buy the Indians - sign David Winfield as a free agent and add players frum Cuba, or before that when James "Catfish" Hunter was deciding between the Yankees and the Indians....

A little unfair? Its a little unfair to expect Dolan to do something Dick Jacobs wouldn't do when the Indians were rolling in money. (& Please i know you are going to mention the "All Stars at every position" while at the same time forgetting it was Jacobs unwillingness to spend money that kept Hart from dealing for Pedro Martinez.)
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Unread postby swerb » Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:24 am

That's a good point Crank, and I tend to agree ... adding a Lee or Soriano just isn't realistic here.

However, I would have liked to have seen the team give Howry 3/12, a deal they were appalled at last year, and now a year later ... they'd deal a top prospect to assume that deal.

I would have given Justin Speier 4/18. I would have given Stanton 2/6. And I would have asked Moises Alou's agent what it would have taken to get him here to Cleveland on a 2 year deal, and then given it to him. Even if it was 2/22 or 2/23.
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Unread postby ACrank » Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:46 am

I have a rep, well deserved (i'm being extremely sarcastic against myself here) of being a full fledged homer and finding little wrong with the Indians FO over the years.

At the time i could see the logic in not offering Howry 3/12 - potential over use issues/coming off of an arm injury, etc. But looking at the market now, i can see where the Howry contract should have been done, and you have to wonder if they should have been foward enough thinking to see that.

But Speier? I'm still scratching my head over that one. Somehow i can't find something Baltimore did as being something acceptable for the Indians to have done.
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Unread postby pup » Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:09 am

A little unfair? Its a little unfair to expect Dolan to do something Dick Jacobs wouldn't do when the Indians were rolling in money


They did not NEED to sign marquee free agents in those years to make World Series runs. They made them every year. They had more talent and the division was much weaker. Today, it is totally different. We are 4th in a 3 horse race right now.

I just hope everyone enjoys this year's Cleveland Bisons.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:17 am

Pup wrote:
They did not NEED to sign marquee free agents in those years to make World Series runs. They made them every year. They had more talent and the division was much weaker. Today, it is totally different. We are 4th in a 3 horse race right now.

I just hope everyone enjoys this year's Cleveland Bisons.


And we don't need a marque player this year either on the field or in the starting rotation.

The marque player we need is a closer. But, that is virtually impossible to find.

Our lineup and starting pitching matches right up with the other 3 in the division.....the difference that makes those 3 better than us right now is 1.) the bullpen and 2.) the manager. Since point 2 is not going to change, we have to work at fixing point 1.

I'll eat crow on Howry, as I thought that deal was a little ridiculous last year. But, he also told the Indians he wanted to close, which is why they put him on the backburner.....and yet he inexplicably signed with the Cubs rather quickly as a setup man. Shapiro was reportedly fuming about that. The Indians were told point blank that at that point if Howry signed, he only wanted to be the closer to resign. Which is why Shapiro did not sign him at that point and why we got into the Hoffman and Ryan sweepstakes....so, I am unsure what happened with that, but it seems like a complete breakdown between Howry and the Indians.
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Unread postby swerb » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:33 am

But, he also told the Indians he wanted to close, which is why they put him on the backburner.....and yet he inexplicably signed with the Cubs rather quickly as a setup man.


Howry never told the Indians he wanted to close, and I'm not sure where that fallacy came from.

I heard two different interviews with Howry where he unequivocally stated that he was not dead set on closing, loved playing in Cleveland, and would much rather set up for a good team than close for a bottom feeder.

The signing happened early in the off-season. And the Indians financial inflexibility caused them to not even consider giving Howry that same deal, which all indications say he would have preferred to take here than in Chicago.

The Tribe dropped the ball big time on that, and in doing so, showed a terrible ability to gauge the market. As mentioned in another thread, the same contract Howry got last year, which the Indians scoffed at ... they would now give up an upper tier prospect to assume this year.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:38 am

I heard the same Howry interviews (BTW, he sounded like an even bigger moron than Thome).

But, I recall Pluto and some others mentioning that Howry told the Indians he wanted to close. And, in his exit meetings with Shapiro that is exactly what he told them. The Indians were open to the idea.....but wanted to look at other options.
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Unread postby pup » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:00 pm

And we don't need a marque player this year either on the field or in the starting rotation.


Really? I wish i had your optimism in regards to the 2006 lineup. To me, we have 3 proven players (Grady, Pronk, Victor) 3 relativly safe players (Barfield, Peralta, Blake) and 3 big question marks (Garko, Michales/Delucci and Marte). I do not think that is anywhere near a championship lineup. The fact that I have to list Peralta and Blake as safe is a cause for concern. The third "safe" guy is a 2nd year guy, in a new league.

If we can add a closer (not Gagne, Borowski or Dotel), then yes, that should be priority number 1. If we are going to overpay for one of those guys then be pissed when their nearly inevitable DL trips pop up, I would rather spend the cash answer questions with the lineup with PROVEN talent.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:18 pm

Our offense has consistently been in the Top 5 in runs, batting average, and OPS the last three seasons. We don't NEED an impact bat....if something falls into our laps, I would certainly love to get a bat to protect Hafner....but still believe this offense is just fine except for a little tinkering.

The starting pitching has been pretty good the last three years.

Bullpen:
2004: 60 save opportunities (19th), 53%(28th)
2005: 66 save opportunities (9th), 77% (2nd)
2006: 46 save opportunities (29th), 51% (30th)

Record:
2004: 80-82
2005: 93-69
2006: 78-84

See a correlation there?

Bullpen folks. Our offense and starting pitching is RIGHT on par with the other 3 in the division....it is the bully that separates us.
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Unread postby pup » Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:00 pm

See a correlation there?


Yes I do. Hardly earth shattering news. Is there an option for us to fix it? If so, do it. Right now. I would think if there was, it would already be done (or rumored, or discussed somewhere). If we could trade for Street, trade for Street. However, if that means we lose Garko, then we are counting on Michaels/Delucci/Choo and Blake to be able to man 3 lineup spots that are normally "power bats". Thus there is a concern again with the offense. Plus Marte, Peralta and a second year guy switching leagues. We will not be on par offensively with Detroit/Chicago with:

Sizemore
Delucci
Hafner
V-Mart
Blake
Peralta
Choo
Marte
Barfield

That lineup could be decent. It could also be terrible. We would have nearly no chance against good left handed pitching, especially in late/pressure situations.



I do not think there is the bullpen help available to turn things around.
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Unread postby ACrank » Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:02 am

Pup wrote:
A little unfair? Its a little unfair to expect Dolan to do something Dick Jacobs wouldn't do when the Indians were rolling in money


They did not NEED to sign marquee free agents in those years to make World Series runs. They made them every year. They had more talent and the division was much weaker. Today, it is totally different. We are 4th in a 3 horse race right now.


So Pedro Martinez wouldn't have helped? Hmmmm - ok. Sorry, but the Indians, under Dick Jacobs, were primed to add a player who could do better to get them over the top then Ricardo Rincon, Joey Cora, Kevin Seitzer, et al, and they didn't do it. Why? Because Jacobs was cheap.

If we can add a closer (not Gagne, Borowski or Dotel), then yes, that should be priority number 1. If we are going to overpay for one of those guys then be pissed when their nearly inevitable DL trips pop up, I would rather spend the cash answer questions with the lineup with PROVEN talent.


So its going to take the same amount of cash to sign a proven closer as it will to sign Gagne/Borowski/Dotel?
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Unread postby pup » Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:21 am

So Pedro Martinez wouldn't have helped? Hmmmm - ok. Sorry, but the Indians, under Dick Jacobs, were primed to add a player who could do better to get them over the top then Ricardo Rincon, Joey Cora, Kevin Seitzer, et al, and they didn't do it. Why? Because Jacobs was cheap.


Of course he would have helped. We are talking apples and oranges here (I don't know why I would expect more). You are talking about adding a marquee player to a team that came played into Game 6 of a World Series, then 2 years later one out of winning one. I am talking about adding a marquee player to a team that came within one month of other teams not playing to make the play-offs.
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Unread postby ACrank » Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:10 pm

Not apples and organges at all, because it comes down to one thing:

Adding a marquee player to the Cleveland Indians.

And if Dick Jacobs would not do it when the team was in a much much much better state financially then they are currently, why would you expect Larry Dolan to do it?

This market does not support adding a big name/big monied/marquee free agent. It never has, and it never will, until MLB gets real revinue sharing.
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Unread postby pup » Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:51 pm

Who is better, the 1995-1997 Indians or the 2004-2006 Indians? Which team is more in need of improving themself? 1995-1997, they needed role players. Now they need a marquee guy.

Like I have said before, if there are better, more affordable options out there that are as likely to contribute to a World Series run, go ahead. But if you are going to give David Delucci and Eric Gagne $14,000,000, I would rather they just got one stud.
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Unread postby ACrank » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:17 am

On which team would a marquee player take them further?

The Dick Jacobs era Indians.

Let the WhiteSox have Manny - its going to cost them so much in player talent, so much in money, that the returns are going to be diminishing, especially if Manny ends up quitting on them like he did on the Sox.

There has to be someone who will cost less then Manny. Even if there isn't, i honestly don't care. I don't want Manny on the Indians.

Do the Indians need a marquee player now? Might be nice. Better just give me 25 guys with talent who will go out and play every freakin day. Based on last year - Manny doesn't fit that description.

Guess we just disagree.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:12 am

Better just give me 25 guys with talent who will go out and play every freakin day


Good luck with that. I would like to welcome you to the 21st century, where as sad as it is, nobody has 25 guys who do that. It is a different world these days. That is why you need the best talent, because character is about out the window.

Guess we just disagree


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Unread postby ACrank » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:44 am

I didn't mention the word "character" anywhere, did i?

If you like players who quit on the team thats great.

I don't.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:13 pm

You like teams with a 90 win ceiling, that's fine.

I don't.
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Unread postby ACrank » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:22 am

who says this team has a 90 win ceiling?

i mean besides you?
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Unread postby pup » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:35 am

I think a 12 win improvement is pretty solid seeing as how we have not improved in starting pitching (which is fine) or the lineup (which is not, more likely it has regressed).

While the names in our bullpen are pretty, with veterans and closing experience, none are as good as Wickman was, Roberto Hernandez is 42, coming off his best year in couple years and moving from the AAAA NL to the best division in baseball. Aaron Fultz is a situational lefty (making the same league change). Joe Borowski could be done for the season around Mother's Day(also coming over from NL), Octavio Dotel is unlikely to make it past St. Patrick's Day.

But we should be primed to make a move in July if we are within 10 games, plus we are set up well for 2008, where we will have $20,000,000 we can add to payroll, again.

Maybe we get lucky, Grady and Pronk finish 1-2 in MVP voting. Maybe CC wins a Cy Young. Maybe Hernandez/Borowski/Dotel find the fountain of youth or find a "Holistic Healer" and form the best bullpen in the AL. Then, 94 wins should be about right, 2 games behind Boston for the Wild Card and 4 games behind Chicago, who is 2 games behind the Tigers!
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