OK, Joel and Pup are cool now

[pup]

so you don't have to lock any more forums, today.

[leadpipe]

Now that your cool with Joel, I think I'll pick on you. Pup, arrange these guys in the order of most performance enhancing drugs to least;

Roger Clemens

Barry Bonds

Jim Thome

Lance Armstrong

Lyle Alzado

[StewieG]

I'll play your game.

Most to least, huh?

Barry Bonds
Jim Thome
Roger Clemens
Lance Armstrong
And I have no idea who Lyle Alzado is, so I'll put him last.

But for the record, I think the first four have all used a lot. But Lance Armstrong has had a lot of very public testing done, and to my knowledge, there's only one real question mark on him. So I'll list him 4th.

[hermanfontenot]

And I have no idea who Lyle Alzado is, so I'll put him last.

Surely you jest.

[leadpipe]

Lyle was a DE for the Raiders and Browns, who's death at a young age was essentially related to roids. This roid game could pick up steam!

[StewieG]

Ohhh, now I remember. I'm a little young, I guess.

In that case, bump him up to #1, because he's the only guy who died from roids on that list.

[pup]

That is an easy game...

Lyle Alzado - Admitted to it.
Barry Bonds - Admitted he did, on accident
Lance Armstrong - Admitted to it at one point, as a cancer treatment
Jim Thome - Got real big, real fast, hit titanic homers.
Roger Clemens - Copied the career path of Nolan Ryan, including work ethic, only was a better pitcher outside of strikeouts.

[hermanfontenot]

Lyle died from a brain tumor in 1991. He claimed before his death that steroids were the cause, but IIRC there has never really been any solid medical evidence to back that up.

[pup]

But him taking them is not indisputeable, correct?

[hermanfontenot]

But him taking them is not indisputeable, correct?

Correct. Dude was the poster boy for roids.

[FUDU]

Jim Thome - Got real big, real fast, hit titanic homers

He got fat.

I met Thome twice in 94 and he was bigger than me at the time, I was 6'3" roughly 205-208. He was taller and broader/thicker.

I always get a good laugh from speculation about Thome and steroids.

[jb]

so you don't have to lock any more forums, today.

Sup with this? What's the 411 on th edrama?

[JoelHammond]

Jim Thome - Got real big, real fast, hit titanic homers

He got fat.

I met Thome twice in 94 and he was bigger than me at the time, I was 6'3" roughly 205-208. He was taller and broader/thicker.

I always get a good laugh from speculation about Thome and steroids.

Yeah, I was surprised to see Thome on this list; I've never heard that speculation about him.

Alzado's tops, for sure. ... No love (er, hate?) for Giambi?

[leadpipe]

Actually only threw Thome on there because of some speculation, and the fact that I thought up the post in under 10 seconds. He would rank last on my list of those 5.

[hermanfontenot]

How about a couple of Olympians: Michelle Smith and Marion Jones.

[Dozen]

I'm a HUGE Thome guy, but cmon..............needle in his ass is spot on. "He didnt get pipes like that from turning butter"

[FUDU]

Trust me, I have stood next to him and talked to him back in those days, I am not a small person and he was a bigger person than me. Easily.

Just look at his forearms in that picture, those are not the forearms of a skinny puny wimp.

[consigliere]

Donny, I'll disagree. I remember going to Tribe games in 92 and 93 when Thome was in and out of the lineup. He was nothing near the size he is now, or even in 97/98.

I remember in 97 I believe, seeing the season opener, and saying, "Whoa, Manny and Thome got BIG this offseason."

[pup]

Sup with this? What's the 411 on th edrama?

Check the Larry Huges has the heart of a ? thread.

[FUDU]

Donny, I'll disagree. I remember going to Tribe games in 92 and 93 when Thome was in and out of the lineup. He was nothing near the size he is now, or even in 97/98.

Not trying to be argumentative but he was every bit of 200lbs in 94-95. The reason it is so clear in my mind is b/c I was such a skinny kid growing up and finally I gained some weight in my early 20's. So Thome comes into the dealership I worked at (our GM was a friend of Jacob's and handled all the Indian's cars) to pick up his Riviera and I turned around and 3 feet away is Jim Thome.

I was like WTF? I had no idea he was such a large man. Much leaner than 98/today but like I said I was 205 @ 6'3" and he made me feel like a shrimp. Maybe he wasn't a lb over 210-215 (which is not a lot of weight for a guy 6'5) but he was not the 180-185 so many people seem to remember b/c of the back of a baseball card.

IIRC it was public knowledge that he started weight training in the 94 off season. Not a surprise that a year later we would see some of the results.

Plus to top it all off his numbers no where justify any claims of steroids.

He was a power hitter all along and his numbers didn't spike spontaneously, he gradually increased his homer totals over the course of a 3-5 year break out period. Hell his single season career high is what 52?

If he took steroids he would hit balls 550 feet every week and would probably hit 65 HR in a year.

I just laugh really, not at you or anybody specifically just at the whole he is a big guy so he must have taken steroids crap. He is country boy that hunts a lot in his spare time, the guy probably eats like a pig and doesn't do much in the way of cardio.

Yet we never heard a peep about that fag Brady Anderson's freak year, at least not in the media we didn't. Plus you would have heard something from his peers, even a subtle hint or Freudian slip., but nada.

[StewieG]

The whole steroids argument is subjective. Nobody will ever be able to prove whether Jim Thome took steroids unless he comes out and admits to it. Same thing with Barroid.

But, there is enough evidence to look at a person's body of work and notice when something just doesn't seem right. Guys with statistical oddities for seasons, like Brady Anderson and Bret Boone (who, oddly enough, both ended up having their jumps at age 32). Rafael Palmeiro (who we know to have taken steroids) saw a major jump in power the year Jose Canseco joined the Rangers. Sandy Alomar, in '97. He came to camp with a ton of extra weight put on...somehow (ahem)...and ended up having a season he's never had before or since. Bonds, with his freakish power jump (and head size jump) after age 35. Bonds was always a great player, but he should have been winding his career down that year, not revving it up). There are many other examples of this, too.

And I'm not saying every one of them did steroids. I'm not saying any of them did steroids for sure. But, the body of work is there, and there's a lot there that makes you say hmm...

But it is all circumstantial evidence. None of us can say for sure who did or who didn't do it unless they've tested positive or admitted it. But the "who's on the juice" game is an interesting one to play, because so many people have so many different opinions on it.

[Dozen]

This guy too

[FUDU]

But, there is enough evidence to look at a person's body of work and notice when something just doesn't seem right.

Agreed.

Are you of the opinion that Thome's body of work contains such evidence?

[StewieG]

With Thome, it's not so much of the numbers being wacky. His career curve seems to be pretty normal.

With him, I look more at the abnormal body size. He's huge. Maybe that's natural for him, I don't really know. And I'd like to think he's innocent, because at the time I think he was using, he was an Indian. And I'd love to think all of our guys were innocent.

But like I said, we'll never know either way with Thome, or most of these other guys. It's all subjective.

[leadpipe]

The whole steroids argument is subjective. Nobody will ever be able to prove whether Jim Thome took steroids unless he comes out and admits to it. Same thing with Barroid.

But, there is enough evidence to look at a person's body of work and notice when something just doesn't seem right. Guys with statistical oddities for seasons, like Brady Anderson and Bret Boone (who, oddly enough, both ended up having their jumps at age 32). Rafael Palmeiro (who we know to have taken steroids) saw a major jump in power the year Jose Canseco joined the Rangers. Sandy Alomar, in '97. He came to camp with a ton of extra weight put on...somehow (ahem)...and ended up having a season he's never had before or since. Bonds, with his freakish power jump (and head size jump) after age 35. Bonds was always a great player, but he should have been winding his career down that year, not revving it up). There are many other examples of this, too.

And I'm not saying every one of them did steroids. I'm not saying any of them did steroids for sure. But, the body of work is there, and there's a lot there that makes you say hmm...

But it is all circumstantial evidence. None of us can say for sure who did or who didn't do it unless they've tested positive or admitted it. But the "who's on the juice" game is an interesting one to play, because so many people have so many different opinions on it.

When somebody's hat size increases by two after the age of thirty, call me a liar, but I'm saying for sure Bonds was on roids.

[StewieG]

When somebody's hat size increases by two after the age of thirty, call me a liar, but I'm saying for sure Bonds was on roids.

Lol, you'll get no argument from me there. Of all the players who've never been proven, Bonds is the one I'm the most sure about.

But all I'm saying is Bonds will never test positive (unless he's a complete idiot) and he'll never admit it, so we'll never have that 100% factor. It'll always be 99.9%, and some people will argue that .01% until they're blue in the face, and no amount of logic (huge head, getting better instead of worse after age 35, arms falling off, etc) will sway their argument.

[leadpipe]

Agreed. The sad thing will be in coming years when we get some "Proof" as guys start dropping off. Pro wrestlers are cashing out at a high rate, and if people don't think mainstream athletes aren't going to go the way of Ken Caminiti, they are mistaken.

[StewieG]

Good point about the Pro Wrestlers. I don't follow it much, but I do know many of the names of guys that have died (Junkyard Dog, Eddie Guerrero, etc). I expect many more to follow suit.

Same thing with football players and baseball players. I think in about 10 years, you'll have a list way too long of guys who died because of complications related to steroids. And that list will keep growing for about 30 years after that, because the real backlash won't start until megastars start dropping off (McGwire, Bonds, Clemens...assuming they were all users). That's when you'll start to really see something being done about it. That's when the big push will come. The 'witch hunt' we have now is nothing compared to what it'll be like in 10-15 years when the stars die.

[Wahoot]

Agreed. The sad thing will be in coming years when we get some "Proof" as guys start dropping off. Pro wrestlers are cashing out at a high rate, and if people don't think mainstream athletes aren't going to go the way of Ken Caminiti, they are mistaken.

What pro wrestlers are you talking about?

Also, if I'm not mistaken, didn't Ken Caminiti die after overdosing on cocaine and opiates?

[Wahoot]

Good point about the Pro Wrestlers. I don't follow it much, but I do know many of the names of guys that have died (Junkyard Dog, Eddie Guerrero, etc). I expect many more to follow suit.

Same thing with football players and baseball players. I think in about 10 years, you'll have a list way too long of guys who died because of complications related to steroids. And that list will keep growing for about 30 years after that, because the real backlash won't start until megastars start dropping off (McGwire, Bonds, Clemens...assuming they were all users). That's when you'll start to really see something being done about it. That's when the big push will come. The 'witch hunt' we have now is nothing compared to what it'll be like in 10-15 years when the stars die.

FYI -- Junkyard Dog died in a car crash.

Beyond that, however, I seriously doubt we'll see baseball players dropping dead in 10-15 years. Pro Wresters take MASSIVE amounts of steroids (several grams a week) and many also abuse recreational drugs. Eddie Guerrero, for instance, was both an alcoholic and addicted to pain killers. More importantly, baseball/football players have team physicians to look after them and head off any warning signs. Whereas I can imagine a Pro Wrestler letting his blood pressure remain at 150/100 over a three year span, that wouldn't happen in MLB. The team trainers would have that guy on Quinapril and the damage to his arteries would be minimized.

[leadpipe]

Agreed. The sad thing will be in coming years when we get some "Proof" as guys start dropping off. Pro wrestlers are cashing out at a high rate, and if people don't think mainstream athletes aren't going to go the way of Ken Caminiti, they are mistaken.

What pro wrestlers are you talking about?

Also, if I'm not mistaken, didn't Ken Caminiti die after overdosing on cocaine and opiates?

Don't watch it anymore, but aforementioned Guerrero, Mr. Perfect, Crash Holley, Ravishing Rick Rude and quite a few others I can't remember the names. And, yes, Caminiti had a drug problem and mental problems, which are not uncommon with steroid users. Chemical imbalances are certainly prevalent in guys that use the stuff.

Look, when it gets right down to it you can always put it off on something else; Alzado's cancer, heart disease etc. What I'm saying is you are going to see an inordinate amount of younger people from a specific group start to drop off prematurely. There will be one common denominator.

[pod2dawg]

Let's not forget the old Stiller offensive line ?