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Bron take in Detroit Free Press

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Bron take in Detroit Free Press

Unread postby jb » Wed May 30, 2007 9:12 pm

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Unread postby swerb » Wed May 30, 2007 9:14 pm

Damn. Good column.
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Unread postby StewieG » Wed May 30, 2007 9:23 pm

Someone from Michigan finally shows an intelligent point, and then I scroll down to the comments from the article, and I'm reminded of why the average IQ in that state is about on par with a toaster.
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Unread postby HoodooMan » Wed May 30, 2007 9:28 pm

Yet you have a young man here who is loathed because he's basically boring.

1) He isn't loathed.

2) He isn't boring.

He's drawn criticism, deservedly, for underacheiving.

He's merely a freakishly athletic basketball prodigy who's still growing into the role of designated savior.

I don't believe this. He's too much the product of a generation of B-Ballers that, IMO, is incapable of saving anything.

He has become a convenient target for those who simply need something to complain about, and the pettiness of the criticism borders on the ridiculous.

He's been a frequent target of those who still remember what professional basketball used to be; not because we're petty, but because we genuinely miss quality basketball. And he has been the target moreso than Melo or Wade or any other young star players: 1) because he plays in Cleveland and that's what we tend to talk about on Cleveland sports message boards and 2) we were sold Old Skool, we bought it, and what we got is New Skool.

And $5 says that article is a plagiarized version of something written about Tim Duncan 3-4 years ago.
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Good article

Unread postby rawdawgexpress » Thu May 31, 2007 8:03 am

Hoodoo:

"He's drawn criticism, deservedly, for underacheiving."


rawdawg:

Whaaa?

Just in terms of the accumulation of stats (pts, rebs, assts) there are 2 players who are at the top ALL-TIME:

Oscar Robertson
Lebron James

And in terms of wins we had just 17, and now 50 in the past 2 years.

I really don't know what you expect from him- and I think your perspective is a bit myopic.

If anything I believe he's overachieved.
And Lebron has a chance to save because he passes.
He plays the right way.
Last edited by rawdawgexpress on Thu May 31, 2007 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby hermanfontenot » Thu May 31, 2007 10:11 am

This franchise was dead- dead- before LBJ arrived. And in his fourth season, it's within two victories of a spot in the NBA Finals. Show me anyone else in sports who has had the kind of affect on a franchise that LeBron has had on the Cavaliers. Maybe Peyton Manning- maybe.

Yup, he's underachieved, alright.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Thu May 31, 2007 10:25 am

HermanFontenot wrote:This franchise was dead- dead- before LBJ arrived. And in his fourth season, it's within two victories of a spot in the NBA Finals. Show me anyone else in sports who has had the kind of affect on a franchise that LeBron has had on the Cavaliers.

Karl Malone

Tim Duncan

Dominique Wilkins

Michael Jordan

George Mikan

Larry Bird

It's pretty much only basketball: you could argue for Joe Montana (SF was truly unwatchable before he arrived) or Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy (but they did have some other players, they just wouldn't have done anything without clutch goalkeeping), but other sports have too many moving parts. In basketball, one guy really can make That Big a Difference.

And before you tell me that Duncan had Robinson and Malone had Stockton and such, note San Antonio and Utah were still either terrible or middling and would most likely have stayed that way until the addition of the second player. Cleveland had an All-Star Center before James joined the team, after all. (It's hard to remember just how awful and bad the Bulls and Celtics were when they drafted Jordan and Bird respectively.)
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Unread postby hermanfontenot » Thu May 31, 2007 12:50 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:
HermanFontenot wrote:This franchise was dead- dead- before LBJ arrived. And in his fourth season, it's within two victories of a spot in the NBA Finals. Show me anyone else in sports who has had the kind of affect on a franchise that LeBron has had on the Cavaliers.

Karl Malone

Tim Duncan

Dominique Wilkins

Michael Jordan

George Mikan

Larry Bird

It's pretty much only basketball: you could argue for Joe Montana (SF was truly unwatchable before he arrived) or Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy (but they did have some other players, they just wouldn't have done anything without clutch goalkeeping), but other sports have too many moving parts. In basketball, one guy really can make That Big a Difference.

And before you tell me that Duncan had Robinson and Malone had Stockton and such, note San Antonio and Utah were still either terrible or middling and would most likely have stayed that way until the addition of the second player. Cleveland had an All-Star Center before James joined the team, after all. (It's hard to remember just how awful and bad the Bulls and Celtics were when they drafted Jordan and Bird respectively.)


SWB,

The Jazz already had Darrell Griffith and Adrian Dantley, and won 45 games and got to the second round of the playoffs the year before acquiring Malone. And while I can’t argue ‘Nique’s affect from a box-office standpoint in fickle Atlanta, or the way he personified that organization (they still haven’t recovered from trading him to the Clips), from a competitive standpoint, his influence wasn’t as great as LeBron’s, either- the Hawks were a .500 team when they brought him in. Not particularly good, but not basket case status, either. San Antonio was a good team that inexplicably had a horrible season the year of the Duncan lottery. And Montana shares iconic status with his coach. Mikan was simply a revolutionary figure in his sport.

I’d like to make an argument against Larry Joe’s impact on the C’s, but I can’t, so on that one I’m going to have to

Image

In terms of personally re-habilitating franchises, the only three guys I’d put with LBJ over the last quarter-century are Manning, MJ, and Mario Lemieux. To me, Lemieux is the closest parallel, because of the state of the Pens when he arrived, and because he faced some of the same criticisms LBJ faced early in his own career (underachiever), although of course, with Lemieux, injuries were a factor.
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Unread postby pod2dawg » Thu May 31, 2007 4:32 pm

OUCH!! Hoodo, my typically eloquent friend with the disturbing avatar, hold the venom on the King for a moment. I too am old school ( old, plus I wear black high top C.Taylor's Converse with absolutely no arch support) so don't hate LBJ because he's 22 in today's era of marketing...er I mean sports. Don't lose sight of the most important fact when talking Cavs....Gilbert has already made a considerable profit on his investment. Back to the court and our hearts:

1. The King is not self-annoited, we did that. Sure he takes the ad $$ but so does everyone else.

2. He is human and doesn't make the right decision every time on & off the court. Neither do I...that would be in court in my case. Sure he wants to be a billionaire and an Icon and that sometimes may distract his on court actions ......like going to the rack in the 3rd quarter. I know he has one child and another on the way?....that involves females=drama= distractions too.

3. He isn't M. Jordan nor did he ever infer he was.

4. As previously noted by the board statistically LBJ is rolling with the Big O, but in his own words he really hasn't done anything yet and wants to bring a championship to this city as it hasn't had one since "64". That's old school.

5.For God's sake look at the cast of characters he's been saddled with, from GM to coach to team mates. Nobody proven. Hey, I bleed wine, gold, blue, black, etc...whatever the uni colors we're wearing that night and I know all involved are trying very hard and giving their all, but really just one consistent shooter would make a world of difference. I don't think the King devised the offensive scheme so nailed by Swerbie...the dribble to wind down the clock and force the "3" or draw the triple team skip it to one of our 5-6 scorers...? Wow!
* Gooden showed huge promise last game beating R. Wallace up all night down low like a power forward should. Goodie stays mean and he could be a keeper.
* Gibson has been a major spark and there is hope here, but is it me or is he the smallest player in the United States?

6. The King has been criticized for not going to the hole enough or posting up on the blocks taking advantage of his size & skills. No human could withstand the beating he would take over a season as the 2nd & 3rd options are so inconsistent.

7.The King is playing his cards correctly smiling, being the nice guy, hugging the opponents....for now. He knows he's outgunned. He knows he has holes,flaws, and needs to keep working on his game. He'll continue to develop and get better. He'll get sick of losing in the play-offs, getting pounded going to the hole, getting no love from the refs, and our criticism. He'll demand more of himself, his team/ coach/ GM : if that doesn't happen he'll take his billionaire aspirations and skills to a bigger market in 3yrs.

I don't own a LBJ jersey, my 7yr old does, but I will purchase a "witness" shirt if/when we get to the Finals someday.( full disclosure)
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Unread postby rawdawgexpress » Thu May 31, 2007 5:35 pm

Rack pod2dawg.

And I liked this from Bill Simmons:


"1. LeBron's ongoing, Skywalker-esque struggle between positioning himself as the self-proclaimed "Global Icon" and actually earning that title on the basketball court. Allow me to make the following points:


(A) He's the greatest young player since Magic Johnson. It's impossible what he's doing right now -- he can throw up a 26-7-7 every night in the playoffs on cruise control. This needs to be mentioned constantly. I would never argue otherwise.


(B) His all-encompassing domination of Game 3 put him on another level as a basketball player -- for the first time, he shifted into MJ/Bird/Magic "there's no f'ing way I'm letting us lose this game" mode and unleashed all of his considerable talents in a big game at the same time. In Games 3 and 4 he was clearly in fifth gear for every minute of both games. Which is where he needs to be. All the time.


(C) Hence, the problem: The best young player in the league has gears already. Great players shouldn't have gears. When Barkley and Magic complain about LeBron on TNT, it's not because they're jealous, it's because other great players take it personally when they feel like someone isn't tapping into their considerable potential.


To be fair, LeBron is only 22 and has already dealt with more hype/pressure/responsibilities/publicity/expectations than any under-22 guy in the history of this league. Unlike someone like Wade (who has a permanent chip on his shoulder after the 2003 draft) or Kobe (who's singularly possessed), everyone's been telling LeBron how great he is since he was 15. He's been the savior in Cleveland since he was 18. He's been considered an elite superstar since he was 19. When you think about it, he's never really had to earn anything. It's like watching a ballyhooed young tennis player (think Andy Roddick or Andre Agassi) enjoying the fruits of his labor even though the labor hasn't been done yet. You know what happens to those guys? Half the time, they self-destruct. That's why it's so dangerous that LeBron is playing with a stick-shift already.


Along those same lines, here's a fascinating observation from Brian Windhorst, who's spent the last couple of years covering LeBron:


"Sometimes when you talk to LeBron before games you can tell he's charged; it happened a handful of times this season. The best I can remember was before the game in L.A. when he killed the Lakers. I have also written and told many people when they ask me about what LeBron is truly like that he can be moody. In Game 3 [of the Detroit series], he was in the mood to kick tail. It was the mood Michael Jordan permanently existed in."


That's the issue. Right there. Every true basketball fan doesn't want LeBron floating in and out of that mood. We want him to permanently exist there. That's why so many basketball fans find themselves abnormally frustrated by him (including myself); when you see someone with a chance to be great, you hope they take that gift seriously and care only about that gift. It's selfish of us to think that way -- after all, who are we to tell someone how to carry themselves on a daily basis? -- but that's the price of the player/fan relationship. LeBron gets the spoils (fame, money, adulation), we get the right to cheer him and bitch about him and discuss him until we're blue in the face.


The fact remains, No. 23 happens to be the only interesting thing about this painfully disjointed Pistons-Cavs series. The coaches stink, the players aren't that good, the styles don't mesh … maybe the intensity has been there, but you could say the same about a WNBA game, for cripes sake. Like many others, I'm looking forward to Game 5 solely because of LeBron. Like many others, I want him to shift into fifth gear, hush the crowd, rip Detroit's heart out and make the Vivid Video face after everything's said and done. Like many others, I will be disappointed if this doesn't happen.


And hey, maybe it's scary for the NBA's future that we're collectively hoping the best young player in three decades finds the right mood for a must-win game, but as my stepfather would say, "I guess it's better than a poke in the eye with a stick." "

rawdawg:

At the very least - Bron's turning into a complex guy, an interesting one.

It'll be really fun to follow how he turns out.
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Unread postby HoodooMan » Thu May 31, 2007 7:08 pm

And I liked this from Bill Simmons:

...

Along those same lines, here's a fascinating observation from Brian Windhorst,


I see your Whaa? upthread and raise you a Whaaaaaaaaa?

(C) Hence, the problem: The best young player in the league has gears already. Great players shouldn't have gears. When Barkley and Magic complain about LeBron on TNT, it's not because they're jealous, it's because other great players take it personally when they feel like someone isn't tapping into their considerable potential.

...

And hey, maybe it's scary for the NBA's future that we're collectively hoping the best young player in three decades finds the right mood for a must-win game, but as my stepfather would say, "I guess it's better than a poke in the eye with a stick."


If you, like me, like Bill, like Magic, like Barkley, and like Brian are unsure of what we're going to get from Bron tonight and you DON'T see a problem with that, I can't help you.
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Unread postby FUDU » Thu May 31, 2007 7:15 pm

We, as fans, and media people, get too caught up in thinking just b/c one superstar can be freakishly ultra focused and motivated (MJ) that they all are or can be. Doesn't work that way.

Micheal worked that way, and Tiger works that way now, that is it really.

There is a reason we use the phrase once in a life time.

All these super talented, superstar athletes cannot all be Roger Bannisters.
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Unread postby HoodooMan » Thu May 31, 2007 7:17 pm

This franchise was dead- dead- before LBJ arrived. And in his fourth season, it's within two victories of a spot in the NBA Finals. Show me anyone else in sports who has had the kind of affect on a franchise that LeBron has had on the Cavaliers. Maybe Peyton Manning- maybe.

Yup, he's underachieved, alright.


Yes, he's really overcome that burdensome free pass to the ECF this year by...umm...helping us advance to the ECF.

But none of that matters, because two wins away from the NBA Finals in one's 4th year is two wins away from the NBA Finals in one's 4th year--that magical threshold, through which, once you've passed, all you have ahead of you is all-time greatness.
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Unread postby HoodooMan » Thu May 31, 2007 7:38 pm

OUCH!! Voodo

Hoodoo.

Buy Junior Wells' CD today. Thank me tomorrow.

1. The King is not self-annoited, we did that

"Lebron Chosen One Tattoo" didn't yield anything in the first page of Google Image results, so do me a favor and pretend I just posted a pic of it here. ;)

3. He isn't M. Jordan nor did he ever infer he was.

No, he isn't MJ. Or Magic or Bird or any other all-time great. But he has the potential to be all that & more. Potential I don't believe will ever be realized. I'm really not saying a whole lot more than that.

4. As previously noted by the board statistically LBJ is rolling with the Big O, but in his own words he really hasn't done anything yet and wants to bring a championship to this city as it hasn't had one since "64". That's old school.

No, that's cliche.

6. The King has been criticized for not going to the hole enough or posting up on the blocks taking advantage of his size & skills. No human could withstand the beating he would take over a season as the 2nd & 3rd options are so inconsistent.

Let's say I agree with this statement (I don't)--if no human could withstand a season long beating of that magnitude, how long can one go? 10 games? Less? Let me know when we get to a point in the season when LBJ can turn it on and not look back.

7.The King is playing his cards correctly smiling, being the nice guy, hugging the opponents....for now. He knows he's outgunned. He knows he has holes,flaws, and needs to keep working on his game. He'll continue to develop and get better. He'll get sick of losing in the play-offs, getting pounded going to the hole, getting no love from the refs, and our criticism. He'll demand more of himself, his team/ coach/ GM :

I just don't see it. The smiling persona goes deeper than that, I think. What I expect is that he'll continue to say all the right cliches for a couple more years, then eventually like every other modern day B-Baller he'll blame it all on everyone but himself (he should have one hell of a supply of excuses from C-Town fans by then to choose from), maybe demand a trade, maybe walk in FA, but he won't grow up into an all-time great. The passion simply isn't there.
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Unread postby pod2dawg » Thu May 31, 2007 8:17 pm

HoodooMan wrote:OUCH!! Voodo

Hoodo


Hoo,

Deepest apologies, it was an all nighter and I'm often distracted with heinous laughter at a that Burger King head shot.

pod
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