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Unread postby FUDU » Mon May 28, 2007 12:13 am

Yet all the talk is about the Pistons playing bad in this series, not the Cavaliers causing them to suck on offense?

Cavaliers are playing the better defense in this series and the biggest reason the Cavaliers are struggling on offense is the Cavaliers themselves NOT the Pistons defense.

God damn this should be a sweep for Cleveland but none the less it is 2-1 Detroit and we get a chance to make it all that in a couple days.

7 games series here we come.
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Unread postby jb » Mon May 28, 2007 12:22 am

The Pistons are playing "bad" because they aren't a very good team.
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Unread postby KFletch » Mon May 28, 2007 9:01 am

I think it is the CAVS defense not the Pistons playing bad per se. We are pressing them and getting in their face. It is nice to finally see the CAVS get aggressive.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Mon May 28, 2007 9:22 am

The Cavs can play good defense if they want to, but I do agree with Ferry's comments from the other day where he stated that you have to pick your poison. Great defense does take a lot of energy and will generally sap your own offense of some potency due to the energy just as running all the time will lessen your defensive impact.

The Cavs have played good defense during this season. Had the offense stepped up ever so slightly then they wouldn't be trailing this series.
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Unread postby rawdawgexpress » Mon May 28, 2007 10:02 am

JB:

The Pistons are playing "bad" because they aren't a very good team.



rawdawg:

That's a bad take and I'm not gonna let u get away with it. ECF 5 years in a row. Beat Shaq and Kobe in the Finals. 4 excellent players and 2-3 good bench players. Billups is fucking clutch. World historical defense.

Uhhh. Then what is a " very good" team?
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Unread postby jb » Mon May 28, 2007 3:26 pm

rawdawgexpress wrote:JB:

The Pistons are playing "bad" because they aren't a very good team.

rawdawg:

That's a bad take and I'm not gonna let u get away with it. ECF 5 years in a row. Beat Shaq and Kobe in the Finals. 4 excellent players and 2-3 good bench players. Billups is fucking clutch. World historical defense.

Uhhh. Then what is a " very good" team?


I'm thinking in my context, you are thinking in yours. I'll readily grant you that yours is the more conventional take.

The Detroit team I'm watching is not a very good team in the spirit of how I judge Great Teams. They could so easily be down 3 - 0 if Bron played 80% up to his potential at a level of playoff intensity.

I am sooooooooooooooooooo sick of the Pistons comparisons with MJ & Bron. These Pistons ain't shit compared to that Detroit team. The Pistons who beat MJ were a legitimate dynasty. These Pistons slipped through for a lone title 3 seasons ago. They did it when they listened to Larry Brown, when they had Ben Wallace, when they were younger, and we all know how dysfunctional that Lakers' team was in their last season together. They mailed in that series the way Miami mailed in this season. Over time, in context, they are like the late 70's Seattle Supersonics, not the late 80's Pistons. And now they are getting older and playing out of snych, clearly on the downward part of their curve.

Billups is overrated. He's a borderline all star, yes, but he isn't what he's made out to be. The Cavs back court is shutting him down. Be serious. Could the Cavs' back court and D scheme shut down a great guard? The talent just isn't there other than Laura who can D up. But Billups was the Cavs' bitch when DJ and Gibson were playing.

Rip is a good complimentary talent. Hes' a nice mid range player with great stamina. Not super-talented.

Sheed is the shizznit. I hate him but he can ball. He's nearly a best-in-era PF talent who has mad all around game. I'd only put Duncan ahead of him.

Price is one dimentional, sort of the the Bobby Jones of his era. Great defender. He adds nothing else.

Weber is done. He's on fumes. And then you are looking at a bunch of their also rans who aren't even Sasha or Gooden or Side Show Bob.

Detroit would be about the 5th or 6th best team in the west.

Are they one of the best teams in the 2007 NBA? Yes. Certainly. If fans are looking longer term at how the Pistons stack up and if fans think beating this bunch is this some monumental task? Oh hell naw.

Cavs should have won last night by about a dozen but we let them hang around missing bunny shots.

They're just not that good.

The Cavs and most fans, I think, have no concept how much we SHOULD win this serires and play for the title. If we lose, even down 1 - 2, I consider this a screwed pooch. You can't assume repeated opportunities against such sub-par competition will always be there.
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Deetroit Sucks-my-balls

Unread postby rawdawgexpress » Tue May 29, 2007 8:02 am

JB:

"The Detroit team I'm watching is not a very good team in the spirit of how I judge Great Teams. They could so easily be down 3 - 0 if Bron played 80% up to his potential at a level of playoff intensity. "


Rawdawg:

I'm sorry, I thought that when you wrote "very good" you meant "very good", not "all-time great". My bad, I think. Yeah, 2000s Detroit is not as good as the 80s Celtics, Bad-boy Pistons and Lakers. However, in their prime these (03-05) Pistons are as good as the 90s Bulls with MJ. Yeah, I said it.

You really sell short Prince and Hamilton by saying they have limited talent. Both are long, play great defense and can easily put up thirty on any night.

And BTW: Steve Nash>Chauncey Billups>Tony Parker>Chris Paul>Deron Williams>Kirk Heinrich.

And McDyess>>>Gooden

But I can't let this pass- "if Bron played 80% up to his potential at a level intensity."

As Charlie Murphy would say about Rick James- "wrong"

Dude is absolutely dominating in all facets this series. You can't expect him to hit fall away threes consistently like he did in game three. But just think about how he's absolutely shut down T. Prince on the defensive end and how offensively he commands a near triple team each time he has the ball. The man guarding Bron, Tayshaun Prince, is a perennial all NBA-defender. Yet he needs help by AT LEAST one additional player and often three others collapse on Lebron. I don't have to tell you that LeBron should be averaging 15 assists per game- but the other Cavs "shooting" limits those assists. We were in both games away and had great chances to win. You can't reasonably expect more than that.

JB- He dominates but you just want Fall-Away threes and spectacular dunks. I'm telling you that NO ONE can do that every game.
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Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue May 29, 2007 9:19 am

The Pistons are a good team but their cracks are showing. If Donyell hits that wide open 3 in game 1 and Hughes makes the bunny in game 2, they're down 0-3 and dead in the water. This isn't the same team without Ben Wallace.

Now the question is how the loss of Hughes changes the dynamic.
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Unread postby jb » Tue May 29, 2007 2:43 pm

Prosecutor wrote:The Pistons are a good team but their cracks are showing.


Maybe they should pull their shorts up?

:-) :smile: :)
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Re: Deetroit Sucks-my-balls

Unread postby jb » Tue May 29, 2007 2:50 pm

rawdawgexpress wrote:JB:

"The Detroit team I'm watching is not a very good team in the spirit of how I judge Great Teams. They could so easily be down 3 - 0 if Bron played 80% up to his potential at a level of playoff intensity. "


Rawdawg:

I'm sorry, I thought that when you wrote "very good" you meant "very good", not "all-time great". My bad, I think. Yeah, 2000s Detroit is not as good as the 80s Celtics, Bad-boy Pistons and Lakers. However, in their prime these (03-05) Pistons are as good as the 90s Bulls with MJ. Yeah, I said it.

You really sell short Prince and Hamilton by saying they have limited talent. Both are long, play great defense and can easily put up thirty on any night.

And BTW: Steve Nash>Chauncey Billups>Tony Parker>Chris Paul>Deron Williams>Kirk Heinrich.

And McDyess>>>Gooden

But I can't let this pass- "if Bron played 80% up to his potential at a level intensity."

As Charlie Murphy would say about Rick James- "wrong"

Dude is absolutely dominating in all facets this series. You can't expect him to hit fall away threes consistently like he did in game three. But just think about how he's absolutely shut down T. Prince on the defensive end and how offensively he commands a near triple team each time he has the ball. The man guarding Bron, Tayshaun Prince, is a perennial all NBA-defender. Yet he needs help by AT LEAST one additional player and often three others collapse on Lebron. I don't have to tell you that LeBron should be averaging 15 assists per game- but the other Cavs "shooting" limits those assists. We were in both games away and had great chances to win. You can't reasonably expect more than that.

JB- He dominates but you just want Fall-Away threes and spectacular dunks. I'm telling you that NO ONE can do that every game.


I dunno Rawdawggie, I think at 22 I get Bron mailing in a game or 3 in december, but he should have the S & C to go hard for 40 like the warriors of old in the playoffs. I also don't tthink 10 & 14 points in gams 1 & 2 is "dominating". In fact, I'd nail it down as "underachieveing". I think we may have to agree to disagree.

While the Pistons belong where they are this season in the east, I see them as beatable as hell. I'm irritated this series isn't 3 - 0 Cavs. I don't think the Cavs supporting cast is nearly as bad as it is made out to be.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Tue May 29, 2007 4:57 pm

rawdawgexpress wrote:JB:

The Pistons are playing "bad" because they aren't a very good team.

rawdawg:

That's a bad take and I'm not gonna let u get away with it. ECF 5 years in a row. Beat Shaq and Kobe in the Finals. 4 excellent players and 2-3 good bench players. Billups is fucking clutch. World historical defense.

Uhhh. Then what is a " very good" team?

One from the Western Conference, notably San Antonio.

ECF impresses me about as much as AL Central titles in the '90s.
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Unread postby FUDU » Tue May 29, 2007 5:01 pm

However, in their prime these (03-05) Pistons are as good as the 90s Bulls with MJ. Yeah, I said it.


JB did you tell him to say that?

The 90's Bulls had 2-3 players (in each of their 3 peats) that were/are better than these Piston's best player.

Just mentioning these Pistons in the same post as the 90's Bulls is insulting to the sport of basketball.
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Unread postby pup » Tue May 29, 2007 6:50 pm

The 90's Bulls had 2-3 players (in each of their 3 peats) that were/are better than these Piston's best player.


Take MJ away from those teams and they ahve ZERO players better than Billups/Rip/Sheed/Ben.

Pippen? Please. He couldn't anything w/out Jordan.

Let's break it down. I will do my best to recall the starting 5 from some of those teams and compare player for player (instead of positions)

Chauncey v Paxson/Armstrong.
Jordan v Rip
Prince v Pippen
Ben Wallace v Rodman
Sheed v Cartwright/Purdue/Wennington

Show me 3 positions those Bulls were better at than the 03=05 Pistons, let alone all being better than whichever Piston you decide is #1.
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Unread postby FUDU » Tue May 29, 2007 7:10 pm

Take MJ away from those teams and they ahve ZERO players better than Billups/Rip/Sheed/Ben.

Pippen? Please. He couldn't anything w/out Jordan.


Well the reality is he did have Jordan though. Cannot just up and say IF he didn't have him.

Using that approach, you know how good Rip, Chauncey or Sheed would be without, Rip, Chauncey or Sheed...not very.

During the 90's run the Bulls made, which is what we are talking about, Pippen did have Micheal and Pippen was head and shoulders better than Rip and Billups, just a wee bit better then Sheed.

Pippen was a 7 time NBA first team defensive player, not one Piston from this group or the "Bad Boys" can say that, not one. Then add MJ's D and Rodman's and it is not a contest, and we are only talking defense.

Not ONE of these current Pistons has been a first teamer except Ben Wallce.

Won't even bother with the offense.
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Unread postby pup » Tue May 29, 2007 7:44 pm

I was talking about individual players, outside of the team concept.

Of course, as a team, those Bulls were better. That is how you win 6 titles and 70 games in a season.

When you get to play next to the best to ever lace them up, that really helps. I would still take most of these Pistons over ANY of Jordan's teammates.

Take each individual outside of Jordan and switch them with current Piston. Would those Bulls teams have been better? Without a doubt.
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Unread postby FUDU » Tue May 29, 2007 9:54 pm

Pup wrote:I was talking about individual players, outside of the team concept.



I was too.

Hence all the individual accolades and accomplishments.

Nothing to show for for these Pistons in that regard. Nothing.
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Unread postby jb » Wed May 30, 2007 6:31 am

FUDU wrote:
However, in their prime these (03-05) Pistons are as good as the 90s Bulls with MJ. Yeah, I said it.


JB did you tell him to say that?

The 90's Bulls had 2-3 players (in each of their 3 peats) that were/are better than these Piston's best player.

Just mentioning these Pistons in the same post as the 90's Bulls is insulting to the sport of basketball.


No.

And I really see no reason to go into it much more. I already stated my takes on this Detroit team in NBA historical context and it is one hell of alot closer to Wilkin's Seattle team that won it once, went to the Finals twice, and contended for several seasons with many "very good" players at similar positions but no superstars. I, um, wouldn't exactly compare them favorably to the 2nd greatest dynasty in NBA history based on number to titles won led by the best there ever was and ever will be.

But the most important point for the here and now, I think, is that the Detroit team I am seeing now is an absolute hollow shadow of the 2004 version. All I know is what I see with my own eyes and they just aren't that good. They've been outplayed all 4 games and if Brown could coach a lick to correct this 3rd quarter nonsense we're breaking down the Finals matchup this morning.
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