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Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

Cavs/Pistons Game 2

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Unread postby swerb » Fri May 25, 2007 8:01 am

HoodooMan wrote:PS to Herm, this can't be the 90 Bulls, because our Pippen has yet to find his Jordan.


On that note, good points made this morning by Sam Amico in his NBA newsletter.

But these Cavaliers aren't the Bulls of the mid- '90s. Instead, they are more like the Bulls of the late '80s, the ones who couldn't seem to match the more physical, experienced and extremely clutch Pistons. Jordan once went through the same thing James is going through today. Interestingly enough, it's against the same franchise.

Before Jordan won six titles, he was known as The Man Who Couldn't Beat Detroit. He was the one- man show; the Pistons were the team in the truest sense. Back then, the Bulls only had one weapon who might be able to beat you at crunch time; the Pistons had several. And back then, the Pistons felt if they defended Jordan as a TEAM, and got physical with him, well, there would be little he could do to hurt them.

Sound familiar?

James needs this series. He's 22 years old and seems content to be a friend to everyone on the opposing team. He is adored by the league and fans, and well-liked by the majority of the media.

If there's one knock against him, it's that he doesn't play with enough fire, that he always seems to handle losses too well. I wrote as much in a column for ProBasketballNews.com: LeBron still in need of winning touch.

The column sounds like a harsh criticism of James, and in some regards, it is. But like Jordan in his early years, LeBron has yet to get burned.

This should be the series changes all that. If it is, I'm guessing we'll see a different LeBron James next season.
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Unread postby swerb » Fri May 25, 2007 8:58 am

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Unread postby hermanfontenot » Fri May 25, 2007 9:11 am

PS to Herm, this can't be the 90 Bulls, because our Pippen has yet to find his Jordan.


Oh, you're one of those guys, huh?
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Unread postby jb » Fri May 25, 2007 9:20 am

Swerb wrote:LeBron didn't get mugged. It was good defense by Hamilton. He forced LeBron into an awful shot. Andy tipped the ball out to a wide open Larry, who missed about a 6 foot jumper with no one around him.

Pistons get the rebound, we foul with one second left. Roker runs out to about half court crying and gets a well deserved T.

Ball game.


It hurts, but I agree.

I am left with these takes in summary:

Laura Hughes makes me cry. I mean weep the fuck openly in a way that I am hard pressed to make anaologus w/ any other C-town pro athlete I've watched. Maybe Derick Alexander vs the Stillers in 1994, but Laura does it on a perpetual basis. Last night was the cherry on the sundae. We will never win a title with $ 11 mil / season wrapped up in that busta. I told y'all he was the wrong signing of the wrong player at the right time and all y'all who are OBR C-Sports cross over peeps dissed me as a cry baby becasue we missed on Redd & Allen. How can an NBA player miss that shot?

Bron TRIED to take the game over twice with the two last shots. Both times he got positively housed by one defender. Destroyed to the point where one was blocked and the other was a shitty shot. Tell it like it is. Great players score on those. Bron looked like me. Is he far more of a pre-yayo and calories Shawn Kemp or young George McGinnis than a Magic, Larry or MJ? I believe so. This is not a sign of complete disrespect, BTW. Those guys were great players. Just not the "NBA Mt Rushmore" level. Discuss.

Regarding the above point: can we now get off his ass for the kick out to Donyell in game one?

As a team, the Cavs are competing much better w/ Detroit that I thought possible. Two loses, two moral victories. Frustrating, but not depressing other than Laura and Bron. The NBA is more of a dues paying league and process than any other league. It is almost unique in this regard. The Cavs don't believe they can win, the Pistons don't actually believe the Cavs can beat them. It shows. How does that get changed?
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Unread postby pup » Fri May 25, 2007 9:42 am

How does that get changed?


Only one way, by beating them.
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Unread postby pup » Fri May 25, 2007 10:10 am

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Unread postby pod2dawg » Fri May 25, 2007 10:17 am

By getting a point guard, anybody that can shoot, and a mean "D" oriented 4 or 5 ( Ben Wallace-like) to stop no names from coming off opponent's bench and dropping 15 on us ,many tomahawk dunks.

The King (22) is ahead of schedule and he , Brown, & Ferry are getting all they can from what they've got. We are a top 6 team. The King isn't a point guard.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri May 25, 2007 10:38 am

I still can't believe no one has mentioned Ferry's tirade in the stands last night. I've NEVER seen Ferry go apeshit like that. It was a 2 second outburst, but DUDE WAS PISSED.

And, I can't tell what he was pissed about. Mike Brown was walking past him toward the tunnel, and caught Ferry and did a 180 since Ferry said something to him. They both met face to face and that is when Ferry got in his face and went apeshit. Then, they both walked off together.

Could be one of three things:

1. Ferry was venting about the no foul call.
2. Ferry was telling Brown to quit acting like a bitch and STFU.
3. Ferry was asking him WTF were you doing that last 30 seconds?
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Unread postby Dozen » Fri May 25, 2007 10:54 am

Consigliere wrote:I still can't believe no one has mentioned Ferry's tirade in the stands last night. I've NEVER seen Ferry go apeshit like that. It was a 2 second outburst, but DUDE WAS PISSED.

And, I can't tell what he was pissed about. Mike Brown was walking past him toward the tunnel, and caught Ferry and did a 180 since Ferry said something to him. They both met face to face and that is when Ferry got in his face and went apeshit. Then, they both walked off together.

Could be one of three things:

1. Ferry was venting about the no foul call.
2. Ferry was telling Brown to quit acting like a bitch and STFU.
3. Ferry was asking him WTF were you doing that last 30 seconds?


I saw Brown going after a fan to argue with, at least thats what I thought. Then it looked like Ferry told him to zip it.
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Unread postby pup » Fri May 25, 2007 11:00 am

I saw it, but with nobody mentioning it in the national media, I don't know how we are going to get the details.

My guess, Ferry was telling him to quit acting like a little biaaatch and get in the locker room.

It wasn't a fan Brown was turning to argue with, it was definitly Ferry. Unless a fan said something, Brown turned to go at the fan and Ferry stepped in and scolded Brown.

And what was with the sweater in the post-game presser? Did he destroy the suit in the locker room?
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Unread postby Dozen » Fri May 25, 2007 11:03 am

Yeah, you guys are right.......I only saw it once and thought it was a fan. I just found it and you can defintly see it was Ferry.

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Unread postby StewieG » Fri May 25, 2007 11:04 am

And what was with the sweater in the post-game presser? Did he destroy the suit in the locker room?


I certainly hope so.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri May 25, 2007 12:15 pm

Could they have just simultaneously realized that they have to pay Hughes 14 million in 2010. That would make anyone snap. It made me pretty much cry yesterday.
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Unread postby StewieG » Fri May 25, 2007 12:32 pm

If I'm Mike Brown, I'm much quicker on the trigger to pull Hughes out of the game on Sunday. If he comes out and bricks or airballs a couple jumpers in a row, and it's clear he doesn't have it, I yank him. We won't survive with him throwing up crap shot after crap shot. Manage this like a baseball manager in the postseason. The minute it's clear your starter doesn't have it, go to the bullpen. Bring in Gibson, or Jones, or you could even dust off Shannon Brown. He can't do any worse.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri May 25, 2007 12:42 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:Could they have just simultaneously realized that they have to pay Hughes 14 million in 2010. That would make anyone snap. It made me pretty much cry yesterday.


Okay, that is freaking hilarious. (rofl)
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Unread postby Dozen » Fri May 25, 2007 12:55 pm

Consigliere wrote:
Lead Pipe wrote:Could they have just simultaneously realized that they have to pay Hughes 14 million in 2010. That would make anyone snap. It made me pretty much cry yesterday.


Okay, that is freaking hilarious. (rofl)


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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri May 25, 2007 12:58 pm

JB wrote:Bron TRIED to take the game over twice with the two last shots. Both times he got positively housed by one defender. Destroyed to the point where one was blocked and the other was a shitty shot. Tell it like it is. Great players score on those. Bron looked like me. Is he far more of a pre-yayo and calories Shawn Kemp or young George McGinnis than a Magic, Larry or MJ? I believe so. This is not a sign of complete disrespect, BTW. Those guys were great players. Just not the "NBA Mt Rushmore" level. Discuss.


JB, come on man… really… are you serious? MJ was still in Dean Smith’s training pants at 21 and he couldn’t beat the Pistons until he was 28, facts be facts.

Don’t tell me that final shot was Bron getting destroyed by a single defender, because it wasn’t. The D funneled LBJ to the middle and forced him to go through Hamilton without drawing a charge or face a double. Sheed had Hamilton’s back (literally) and was going to make sure LBJ got no more penetration. Hamilton played physical and questionable D and LBJ was forced into a shitty shot. End of story.

We are talking about a kid who took over a series of games in the post season last year up until game seven when the Pistons drew up their own new MJ/LBJ rules. Those rules basically focus around “beat the shit out of LBJ and double him whenever need be.” Brown’s only counter to this D had been that middle pick and roll with Andy and last night The Wall of Maximus destroyed that play. Our adjustment… keep running it or go back to LBJ dribble around and kick it out hoping someone makes a shot! The color guys were practically begging Brown to try a pick and roll with Z/Webber or get LBJ moving without the ball, we never did.

The Pistons are daring this team to beat them outside of the paint and their defense last night was completely focused on stopping LBJ and keeping Z from getting any easy shots. They struggled stopping LBJ in the first half and adjusted. What were Brown’s adjustment in the second half? Nothing. LBJ was a sitting duck. Z was chucking up bricked hook shots, Laura was being Laura, and you can only count on your below average shooters to drill so many 3’s.

The final play is a direct result of three things: 1) Laura Hughes sucking out loud. The Pistons had five sets of eyes on LBJ during that entire play, our Scottie didn’t even make them blink. 2) The game being a Rugby match and LBJ being the target of every player on D and 3) A complete lack of motion in our offense. We didn’t develop a play, we didn’t move LBJ without the ball to get him a chance to split the defense, no, we decided to have LBJ dribble until there was five second left and then attack a defense that knew he was coming right at their heart. Even Jordan and “The Shot” involved some movement without the ball.

This team’s most vital need is an assistant coach who can develop a real offense. Hughes, for as bad as he is in this offense, can be an average (Note, I said average, not $11mill) player in the right system. Until this team has a real offense LBJ is going to be ineffective against great physical defensive teams that don’t respect the rest of our game (as demonstrated by the wide open looks we got from 3 point land all night long). The second biggest need is a point guard who can get LBJ the ball in motion.

Now, I know you watched MJ back in the day, can you remember what ceiling you established for MJ at 22, or if you considered him a highly probable greatest player ever? I understand MJ and LBJ have different skill sets, but he’s the only great you mention that had to play on a team close to LBJ’s Cavs.

I just don’t understand how you’re establishing a ceiling for this kid at this point in his development and against a team that has made the Conference Finals five years running.

Do me a favor and call up with LBJ’s ceiling once he cracks 24-25, no need to bring the “hate early” mentality here at this age, you’ve watched too many athletes develop for that.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri May 25, 2007 1:03 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:JB, come on man… really… are you serious? MJ was still in Dean Smith’s training pants at 21 and he couldn’t beat the Pistons until he was 28, facts be facts.


Facts be fact, then I guess we can't expect Lebron to beat the Pistons for another 6 years until he is 28? Will Lebron even be a Cav in 6 years? 3 years?
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri May 25, 2007 1:05 pm

Consigliere wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:JB, come on man… really… are you serious? MJ was still in Dean Smith’s training pants at 21 and he couldn’t beat the Pistons until he was 28, facts be facts.


Facts be fact, then I guess we can't expect Lebron to beat the Pistons for another 6 years until he is 28? Will Lebron even be a Cav in 6 years? 3 years?


Facts are one thing, perspective is another Tony. You ought to know this better than anyone considering all of the time you spend researching/writing about baseball prospects.

You know damn well I wasn't taking that hard line.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri May 25, 2007 1:14 pm

Jordan is just a poor comp. Kobe Bryant is better since he came out of high school as well. He won an NBA Championship in his 4th year.

That's what I am sayin, Lee.

Anyway, I don't care how old Lebron is...or how old MJ was when he beat the Pistons. The bottom line is, we are here now. I don't want to make excuses for why we couldn't win this year, because God Dam it, it is RIGHT THERE FOR THE TAKING.

I learned this very important lesson after 1995 with the Indians. When we lost to the Braves, I was disheartened, but quickly felt we'd be right back in the thick of things and win it the next year. Problem is, there are no gaurantees, and it is so hard to get back to the WS or ALCS.

That same logic applies here with the EC Finals. Gotta make due of the opp given to us. Because there is no guarantee we'll ever be this far again.

If Lebron is going to be showered with all these accolades, and get MVP talk, best player in league talk....then the whole "it took Jordan until he was 28 talk" needs to be shelved. Just fucking win.

The onus is on someone here....whether it be James for not having crunchtime sack like the NBA elites in the past.....or that Ferry constructed this team around him wrong.
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Unread postby jb » Fri May 25, 2007 1:21 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:Could they have just simultaneously realized that they have to pay Hughes 14 million in 2010. That would make anyone snap. It made me pretty much cry yesterday.


Rack it.
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Unread postby Dozen » Fri May 25, 2007 1:23 pm

The onus is on someone here....whether it be James for not having crunchtime sack like the NBA elites in the past.....or that Ferry constructed this team around him wrong.



Well said, I'll throw another thing in as well. Mike Browns offense doesnt fit in as well with the type of players and the players dont fit well around LBJ. Now, the only realistic choice to get better is to either get a new coach or bring in a offensive minded asst. Because your just not gonna find any sucka's to take on a Larry Hughes,Snow ect. The only way I can see them improving the roster is if they can get a sign and trade for AV.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri May 25, 2007 1:26 pm

Someone said it best the other day.....Mike Brown might be Lebron's "Doug Collins." Rack that.
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri May 25, 2007 1:43 pm

Consigliere wrote:Jordan is just a poor comp. Kobe Bryant is better since he came out of high school as well. He won an NBA Championship in his 4th year.

That's what I am sayin, Lee.


Well, Kobe is also a very poor comparison considering the assistance of the most dominating player in the NBA on those Laker squads.

Consigliere wrote:Anyway, I don't care how old Lebron is...or how old MJ was when he beat the Pistons. The bottom line is, we are here now. I don't want to make excuses for why we couldn't win this year, because God Dam it, it is RIGHT THERE FOR THE TAKING.


I can agree with this sentiment, but I focus the blame on other factors. My blame for last night ultimately lies with the ineffective nature of our offense and Mike Browns inability to make in game adjustments. Brown’s inexperience really showed come the second half when Flip made him his bitch.

Consigliere wrote:I learned this very important lesson after 1995 with the Indians. When we lost to the Braves, I was disheartened, but quickly felt we'd be right back in the thick of things and win it the next year. Problem is, there are no gaurantees, and it is so hard to get back to the WS or ALCS.


No guarantees I can buy, but you simply can’t ignore the fact that we are playing an elite mini-dynasty that is at the end of its reign. If anything is valid about the Jordon comparison it is that he ran into an elite team that he couldn’t beat with his surrounding cast. We to have run into an elite team, thankfully said team will very possibly lose its heart and soul this off-season. Either way, our future is very closely tied to the potential of players like Sasha. Our future is moving forward, the Pistons are at the peak with nowhere to go but down after this season.

Consigliere wrote:If Lebron is going to be showered with all these accolades, and get MVP talk, best player in league talk....then the whole "it took Jordan until he was 28 talk" needs to be shelved. Just fucking win.

The onus is on someone here....whether it be James for not having crunchtime sack like the NBA elites in the past.....or that Ferry constructed this team around him wrong.


The onus is not on the kid. He set up a perfect play for the win in game one and he still put himself in a position to potentially take a foul (on a play that would have been a foul last year, before D-Wade forced the NBA to evolve its playoff officiating) in game two. We should have won one of these games. The kid is just struggling right now with an elite team that is daring the rest of the team to beat them and our best outside players are young and not yet ready to push this team over the top.

The onus is also certainly not on Ferry… for as bad as Laura is would you prefer Bobby Simmons (you just asked yourself who’s that right)? This is an extremely young team with a decent trading chip in the form of dead weight Ira Newble, our future is bright.

Losing games like this and a series like this are the things that are going push LBJ to take that next step. These two games are burning him inside more than anything else ever has. Accolades and MVP talk are regular season shit and meaningless, this is only his second trip to the real season and he has run into a force that he can’t match yet. Yeah, we could have stolen these past two games, but do you really think the Cavs are the better team? Next year we very well could be the better team. Geezes, Sasha and Boobie only have a half season each of playing meaningful minutes.

The best thing this team can do is take a hard look at it’s offense come the off-season and do anything we can come up with to bring an average PG in.

More to JB’s original point: LBJ’s contract coming up forced Ferry to sign some players that we would have been better off not signing, but I can’t fault Ferry for feeling the heat and needing to get LBJ into the playoffs last year. LBJ is playing with a patchwork collection of bums (see Newble, Ira), overpaid players (Glassman), and developing talent (Gibson, Pavs, Andy, maybe Brown) and a decent center who can still win you a game every once in awhile. It’s not the worst roster in the playoffs, but it also certainly isn’t NBA title material. The fact that we made it this far (without an offense) speaks enough about our star player for me to hold off establishing a ceiling for him yet.

We are so close it hurts, I feel you, but talking about LBJ’s ceiling and Kobe winning titles with Shaq is foolish. The elder statesmen figured this team out and the development of our youth (including LBJ), better coaching and the Piston’s having nowhere to go but down will result in a passing of the torch.

In the blink of an eye our biggest rivals are going to be the Bulls and look at what the Pistons just did to them.
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Unread postby hermanfontenot » Fri May 25, 2007 1:44 pm

Jordan is just a poor comp. Kobe Bryant is better since he came out of high school as well. He won an NBA Championship in his 4th year.


Consig, I don't think I need to point out the difference between that Laker team and any of LeBron's Cavaliers teams.

Just think of how hard LBJ has to work for every basket. The only time he gets an easy look is off of a steal and a runout. Could he move better without the basketball? Abso-fucking-lutely. But that doesn't change the fact that there is no one else on the roster- other than LeBron, of course- who can distribute it effectively enough to take advantage.

Just think of what it would be like to have a point guard who could run the pick-and-roll with LeBron, who could run the break competently and allow LBJ to go out on the wing... Christ, it'd be beautiful. We waste so much time talking about non-quantifiables- is LeBron clutch or not, is he scared or not, does he care or not- but when the rubber meets the road, it's all about talent, scheme, and execution. Everything else is just commentary.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri May 25, 2007 1:45 pm

Consigliere wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:JB, come on man… really… are you serious? MJ was still in Dean Smith’s training pants at 21 and he couldn’t beat the Pistons until he was 28, facts be facts.


Facts be fact, then I guess we can't expect Lebron to beat the Pistons for another 6 years until he is 28? Will Lebron even be a Cav in 6 years? 3 years?


Consig, Lebron shouldn't have to beat the Pistons. The Cavs should. Jordan didn't beat the Celtics. He beat the Pistons, or, to the point, Jordan, Pippen, Grant, Paxson, armstrong beat the Pistons. One more time, slowly;

Player #1 19 points 6 rebounds, 7 assists

Player #2 4 points, 3 assists

Player #3 4 points 1 rebound

Player #4 3 points, 7 rebounds

All starters. I'll even set aside the fact player #1 had Detroit's COMPLETE attention with double & triple teams. I'll set aside he's 22 years old and still developing. What I won't set aside is the fact that anyone looking at that list and wants to tell me player #1 is the reason they lost last night, well, I just don't know what to say.

Player #1 needs to get better. Player #1 will get better. Players 2 thru 4 are past the point of developing. This is a big problem, far worse than any problems dealing with player #1.
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri May 25, 2007 1:45 pm

JB wrote:
Lead Pipe wrote:Could they have just simultaneously realized that they have to pay Hughes 14 million in 2010. That would make anyone snap. It made me pretty much cry yesterday.


Rack it.


Are you shitting me? I'm praying for 2010 when we have a $14mill expiring contract we can dump. That'll be the best year the Cavs have Hughes under contract.

And Tony - I could very well see Mike Brown being LBJ's Doug Collins.
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Unread postby swerb » Fri May 25, 2007 1:50 pm

I'm disappointed in LeBron, I really am.

I forget the exact numbers, but at one point a month back, LeBron was 0-12 or 1-13 on game winning shots with under 10 seconds left. Two more shots to get r dun in games one and two of the EC Finals ... and he gorks again.

I know, I know. He's 22. He's not MJ. He's got no help. Roker can't coach offense to save his life. Save it all. I KNOW.

I don't care. I want to win.

And Michael Jordan IS the comp here. If not Michael, Magic. And to the people that say thats not fair ... I say poppycock. Its more than fair. MJ or Magic woulda run over their grammas to have LeBrons ability, body type, and BBall IQ at age 18.

And both have dwarved what LeBron has done at age 22 in their first 4 years in the league.

Magic was NBA Finals MVP as a rook, and was draped with jewelry by his mid 20s. MJ, in his 4th year in the league was 35/6/6 and runaway MVP despite a supporting cast that makes Laura, Z, Drew, and Sasha look like the Bill Russell Celtics.

I'll catch shit for this take, and people will accuse me of being the type that will run this kid out of this town. But I call it as I see it.

And I see a kid that is not performing up to his potential. A kid that takes 20 games off each regular season. A kid that wants to be the best friend of all his opponents and lacks a killer instinct. A kid that has repeatedly choked in clutch situations, in this, his 4th year in the league. A kid that is content to do nothing but get the ball at the top of the key and attacks opponents in just one way.

Is it any surprise the veteran Pistons eat this kids lunch? Hes so fucking one dimensional right now. And seven game series against good teams expose weaknesses.

Here's the Cavs offense:

Hughes fucks around for 6-7 seconds. Pass to Sasha. Pass to LeBron on the perimeter. Prince guarding him. Sheed and Webber/Dice/Maxiell waiting on each side of him for the collapse. LeBron drives. If he finds a seam, he shoots. If not, he passes out to someone on the wing for a 19+ foot shot with less than 4 seconds left on the clock.

Roker clearly deserves some blame. But LeBron should be demanding the ball in the post. Demanding new ways to get the pill if Roker is too fuckin stupid to figure it out.

LeBron is built like a god damn defensive end. With that skinny little piece of shit Prince covering him, just hovering on him on the permiter, eagerly awaiting the LeBon drive so he can steer him into other awaiting defenders and use that wing span to alter the shot. LeBron should be running Prince all over the court. Posting him up. Running him off screens on the blocks. Make him work!

In their 4th years in the league, MJ or Magic would have been carving these assholes from that cesspool Detroit to pieces.

And the comps are the correct ones.

Another year, another blown fucking opportunity.
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Unread postby jb » Fri May 25, 2007 2:00 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
JB wrote:Bron TRIED to take the game over twice with the two last shots. Both times he got positively housed by one defender. Destroyed to the point where one was blocked and the other was a shitty shot. Tell it like it is. Great players score on those. Bron looked like me. Is he far more of a pre-yayo and calories Shawn Kemp or young George McGinnis than a Magic, Larry or MJ? I believe so. This is not a sign of complete disrespect, BTW. Those guys were great players. Just not the "NBA Mt Rushmore" level. Discuss.


JB, come on man… really… are you serious? MJ was still in Dean Smith’s training pants at 21 and he couldn’t beat the Pistons until he was 28, facts be facts.


OK, Lee, let's stick to facts.

Age chronology isn't much of a fact here. What we are factually talking about is NBA years and performance. The other facts would be comparing Detroit circa 88 - 91 and 06 & 07. One was a championship dynasty and the other is one of the better teams in the conference that lost in the conference finals and should enter the Finals as a prohibitive underdawg, years removed from their lone championship.

Here is MJ in year 4. This does not account for the fact he lost almost a full season due to his foot injury, so it is almost like compasring MJ year 3 to Bron year 4:

http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_stats.html

Reg Season he's putting up 35 & 5.9 & 5.5

Bron?

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lebron_james/career_stats.html

He regressed in year 4 from year 3 putting up 27 & 6.0 & 6.7

BTW - for all the stories of MJ's alleged selfishness, their assists are almost identical.

Then there's the facts of the playoff stats.

MJ in year 4? 36 & 4.7 & 7.1 http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/stats_playoffs.htm

Bron?
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lebron_james/
24 & 7.8 & 8.1

There's really no comparsion. Which is my point.

It is also silly for you to get all excited that I'm saying Bron is merely great instead of in the realm of the best ever. I'm not saying he's Mike Mitchell or something. I'm saying at year 4 he's a lot closer to his ceiling that some people want to acknowledge. Physically, he will not get better. And after 4 seasons and midway into playoff series two he's still not a clutch legend. He seems to be a lessor Dr J. Not bad at all, but not MJ.

Last word: Bron was matched up vs a single defender when his BS excuse for a shot went up. Look at the photo. The visual is the fact. I understand the concept, but at the point he created his shot he was man up on a smaller , less talented defender and that was what he got off?

Puh-leaze.
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Unread postby jb » Fri May 25, 2007 2:02 pm

Here's the Cavs offense:

Hughes fucks around for 6-7 seconds. Pass to Sasha. Pass to LeBron on the perimeter. Prince guarding him. Sheed and Webber/Dice/Maxiell waiting on each side of him for the collapse. LeBron drives. If he finds a seam, he shoots. If not, he passes out to someone on the wing for a 19+ foot shot with less than 4 seconds left on the clock.


This'd be hillarious if it wreen't so dead nuts on.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri May 25, 2007 2:04 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Losing games like this and a series like this are the things that are going push LBJ to take that next step. These two games are burning him inside more than anything else ever has. Accolades and MVP talk are regular season shit and meaningless, this is only his second trip to the real season and he has run into a force that he can’t match yet. Yeah, we could have stolen these past two games, but do you really think the Cavs are the better team? Next year we very well could be the better team. Geezes, Sasha and Boobie only have a half season each of playing meaningful minutes.


You sure about that?

I felt the same after last year....that the disappointment after having the Detroit series slip through their hands would push Lebron (and others) to come out driven....determined this year.

They did not look so determined, nor did Lebron look to have some sort of burning desire to get back and smoke the Pistons. If we end up losing this series, what is going to be so different about this year's loss over last year's that will get him fired up?

And, Detroit ain't going anywhere anytime soon. Billups is going nowhere, and that team will still be a force for another 2-3 years. Hamilton, Billups, Rasheed, and Prince are a solid core for another few years. Plus, Dumars is a pretty good GM.
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Unread postby hermanfontenot » Fri May 25, 2007 2:08 pm

Just want to say in passing that, with the style LeBron plays, if he didn't take games off during the regular season, he'd turn into the Earl Campbell of basketball.

The idea is to build a team around LeBron that is good enough to beat the Charlottes and Atlantas of the world without him having to spend everything he has.
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri May 25, 2007 2:25 pm

JB wrote:Age chronology isn't much of a fact here. What we are factually talking about is NBA years and performance.


MJ had the advantage of learning for three years from one of the greatest college coaches ever and had time to grow in the NBA without spending every waking minute as the leagues walking poster boy. I don’t think you can fairly argue that age or NBA years are the proper measure of development when comparing MJ to LBJ and it’s unfair to expect a 22 year old with four years experience to be as “NBA mature” as a 26 year old with four years NBA experience and 3 years college experience.

Regardless of stats and shots that he was forced to take because Sheed would have killed him had he taken another step, I’m not ready to make a conclusion on LBJ’s future. You feel he is leaning toward merely great, I feel like it is unfair to pass judgment on the kid at this point and that we need to see how he reacts to a real offense, taking the summer off, and playing with better talent next year. Classic YMMV.

I’m not excited, nor am I saying that you are wrong, per se, more so I am disagreeing with your JB-esque tendency to pass early judgment.

Although shit, I almost always disagree with your early judgments.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri May 25, 2007 2:51 pm

HermanFontenot wrote:Just want to say in passing that, with the style LeBron plays, if he didn't take games off during the regular season, he'd turn into the Earl Campbell of basketball.

The idea is to build a team around LeBron that is good enough to beat the Charlottes and Atlantas of the world without him having to spend everything he has.


This is spot on. Just because he's strong as an ox, that doesn't prevent him from being the most physically abused player in the league. Especially when you take into consideration what the lane looks like when the Cavs are on offense. He goes 82 games full tilt he's not going to be playing at 100% playoff time. there is a reason virtually every big star finds some little injury that keeps them away from first half games.
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Unread postby FUDU » Fri May 25, 2007 4:33 pm

The way that entire game was called--the 4th quarter especially--to have blown the whistle on that play would have been like an ump calling a strike on a borderline pitch to the ouside when he'd had a ten foot wide strike zone all night long. The tone had been set. It was a physical one. The refs made it clear long before that play that they weren't going to give you much anything and you were going to have to man up and earn your points on your own.


That is not necessarily true. Sure the game was physical but that was a tone set by the teams and the refs catered to the teams wishes (that is how it should be). However game 2 was officiated different often for the first 45 minutes compared to the last 3.

If the refs are going to say yeah there was contact on the last play but not enough to make a call then why in hell did they call Rasheed for hooking LeBron in the first quarter? They cannot make one and not the other no matter what the game situation is.


The whole problem with the non call is simply the refs didn't have the guts to make the call and deal with the criticism after ward despite the foul being the correct call.

Ask any referee if the last play of game 2 was a foul and they will tell you it was, I just asked two NE Ohio HS officials, both reffed this years playoffs, both said without question it was a foul.

FWIW they also made note of the travel call on Sasha being totally incorrect b/c he got rid of the ball before he traveled, the refs just anticipated what they thought would happen.
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Unread postby FUDU » Fri May 25, 2007 4:45 pm

Losing games like this and a series like this are the things that are going push LBJ to take that next step. These two games are burning him inside more than anything else ever has. Accolades and MVP talk are regular season shit and meaningless, this is only his second trip to the real season and he has run into a force that he can’t match yet. Yeah, we could have stolen these past two games, but do you really think the Cavs are the better team? Next year we very well could be the better team. Geezes, Sasha and Boobie only have a half season each of playing meaningful minutes.


Some good points.

The problem though is just b/c we advanced to this stage of the chase for the ring this year doesn't mean we will automatically return to this stage next year. this year we had the perfect yellow brick road to the EC finals. Detroit, Chicago and Cleveland were the real only true contestants from the East but the Nets, Wizards and Heat are not so far behind that they could knock somebody off. Case in point, if the Wizards had Arenas and Butler for our series they very well could have taken us to 7 games or even beat us, or maybe next time around we get Chicago first rd.

All sorts of things can happen to dislodge us from the perfect road to the EC finals in the future so we have to do the most we can with the chance given to us now.

So IMO all this stuff about we have to take our lumps and use this year's potential series loss to Detroit as our building block for next year is crazy talk.

We need to try to take em down right now and it looks like the Cavaliers agree b/c they sure are putting up a very good fight and have not been undoubtedly out played
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Unread postby jfiling » Fri May 25, 2007 5:35 pm

FUDU wrote:FWIW they also made note of the travel call on Sasha being totally incorrect b/c he got rid of the ball before he traveled, the refs just anticipated what they thought would happen.


I noted that right after it happened last night, and I'm glad to see I'm not crazy. Like I said, I immediately rewound my DVR and watched it again and Pavs definitely got the ball out before landing. The foul is questionable, but that traveling call was bull.
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Unread postby FUDU » Fri May 25, 2007 6:00 pm

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Unread postby consigliere » Fri May 25, 2007 6:08 pm



Dude, that is not a foul. And all that picture shows is great defense. Hamilton wasn't hacking him with his arms and he had great position. Just great defense. I really do not understand what people are seeing here. If you call a foul on THAT play, then there should be 500 foul calls a game then.
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Unread postby FUDU » Fri May 25, 2007 6:50 pm

Consigliere wrote:


Dude, that is not a foul. And all that picture shows is great defense. Hamilton wasn't hacking him with his arms and he had great position. Just great defense. I really do not understand what people are seeing here. If you call a foul on THAT play, then there should be 500 foul calls a game then.


Actually I was wrong, the start of the foul was prior to that but the foul continues as LeBron continues to turn (just saw it again in slo mo on TV).

When an offensive player is backing his way toward the hoop the defender is allowed the elbow/forearm contact (with exception to above the shoulders) however the defender is not allowed to violate the offensive players cylinder, his space. The defender is allowed to hold their ground and incidental body contact is permitted to the defender as long as they are not leaning or crossing into the cylinder of the offensive player (and as long as they don't create the contact). Plus their hands must be straight up. Even if they make NO contact with their hands and arms, and their arms are extended outward into the cylinder, but contact with the body is made it is a foul on the defender.

I never finished ref school but know from attending short term and playing for 15+ years that that scenario is a foul without any question what so ever.

as LeBron continues to turn through the photo Hamilton;s arm extend through the and into LeBron's cylinder and there is contact with the arms to boot. even if there was no contact with Rip's arm his arm in LeBron's cylinder with his body riding up against LeBron constitutes a foul.

Again, with a few of the calls that were made in the first half to not make the last call on Hamilton is an insult to the whole notion of having officiating to begin with.

Rasheed hooking Lebron? C'mon that was such a weak ass call, although a legit call, it was just ridiculous to call that especially in that spot...then to use the line "one cannot expect LeBron to get the last call in that situation" is beyond wrong. Which in reality is exactly the message the refs were sending with the no call.

http://images.sportsline.com/u/gettyimages/photos/74165835AE059_Pistons_Cavs052501_lower.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKZY40lv5AY

You can see it plain as day here.

When LeBron's right foot makes it final plant for the spin Hamilton is riding against LeBron and his arms are extended well into LeBron's cylinder and the arms are making plenty of contact (particularly to the shoulders and back of the neck). Just b/c LeBron is powerful enough to get through it doesn't mean it isn't a total hack. You can see the prelude to this in the still photos. Also Rip gets LeBron near the foul line as well, he did not have position at that point and was riding LeBron's side there.
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Unread postby jfiling » Fri May 25, 2007 7:27 pm

*sigh* After watching it another 32 times, I made a few screenshots from the crappy youtube video. You be the judge.

Image

Image

Maybe they show nothing, but the first is before LeBron starting shooting, the second with LeBron in the act. I don't know.
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Unread postby FUDU » Fri May 25, 2007 7:32 pm

You first frame is a foul. Notice the lean with contact and the arms not straight up, the left arm is in Lebron's back and neck. Plus Hamilton does NOT have position there.

The second frame Hamilton is fine really. But as soon as James' arms start upward to shoot Hamilton's arms are all over Lebron's left arm.

The most important part is what happens in between your screen shots.

Funny thing is if you listen to Kerr's comments in the second replay from the youtube video Hamilton does exactly what Kerr claims he didn't do, which I was surprised to hear b/c Kerr is pretty solid IMO.
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Unread postby jfiling » Fri May 25, 2007 7:34 pm

FUDU wrote:The second frame Hamilton is fine really. But as soon as James' arms start upward to shoot Hamilton's arms are all over Lebron's left arm.


Yeah, but the point of that frame was that if LeBron just goes straight up to take a shot, Hamilton is going to be draped all over him. I couldn't get the .1 of a second later to pause right for me, so I just used that frame instead.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri May 25, 2007 10:40 pm

Oh for the love of God. Run it at full speed. Hardly noticable. Refs don't have the advantage of slow-mo. Like I said, if we call that a foul, after reviewing on slow-mo 50 times.....then just about every play there is a foul in the NBA. A good non-call. Period.
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Unread postby Dozen » Fri May 25, 2007 10:54 pm

Consigliere wrote:Oh for the love of God. Run it at full speed. Hardly noticable. Refs don't have the advantage of slow-mo. Like I said, if we call that a foul, after reviewing on slow-mo 50 times.....then just about every play there is a foul in the NBA. A good non-call. Period.


I'm in total agreement with this take. Christ........You cant even think you're going to get that call in the playoffs. Bottom line Hughes had a wide open shot and choked. Maybe tomorrow they will redo it in practice and everyone can go mug em after he finally knocks one down.
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Unread postby Guest » Fri May 25, 2007 11:01 pm

26 second half points
That's why they lost.
Let's move on.
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Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Fri May 25, 2007 11:46 pm

Back... and to the left.

Back... and to the left.
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Unread postby jb » Sat May 26, 2007 8:09 am

Dozen wrote:
Consigliere wrote:Oh for the love of God. Run it at full speed. Hardly noticable. Refs don't have the advantage of slow-mo. Like I said, if we call that a foul, after reviewing on slow-mo 50 times.....then just about every play there is a foul in the NBA. A good non-call. Period.


I'm in total agreement with this take. Christ........You cant even think you're going to get that call in the playoffs. Bottom line Hughes had a wide open shot and choked. Maybe tomorrow they will redo it in practice and everyone can go mug em after he finally knocks one down.


They'd have called it for MJ. Or Magic.
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Unread postby HoodooMan » Sat May 26, 2007 9:24 am

MJ or Magic woulda run over their grammas to have LeBrons ability, body type, and BBall IQ at age 18.

True. To get that total package they would have done just that. And then they would have kicked their grandpas in the nuts to give the BB-IQ back and keep the rest.

Bron's idea of making his teammates better right now is: disappear. Yeah, their numbers tend to go up that way, but he's not doing them any favors. I think it was Donny who commented early in the Game 1 thread how great it was that we were playing so well early on and Bron had yet to use up much energy. Well, you know, the flip side of that is that his teammates were, but when the 2nd half came around, instead of stepping up himself, he chose to continue leaning on the guys whose tanks were nearing empty.

Upthread here, someone broke down the Player 1, Player 2, and so on numbers for Game 2. Someone want to tell me how it makes any sense, when that's the case--when what you have in terms of surrounding talent was struggling--and when your 12pt lead is dwindling to nothing in the 3rd quarter, for Bron to not step up himself in that situation? I forget exactly how much time was left--I want to say maybe 2ish minutes left in the game--when TNT put up Bron's numbers, and he'd taken like 5 shots in the second half to that point. What the fuck was he doing? I guess we can scratch The Turnicate (any chance that's spelled correctly?) off the list of potential nicknames for TGI.

The guy's approach to the game is just garbage right now. And I'd be more optimistic about that changing if I thought he was putting more effort into his game in the offseason and less effort into being TGI. And that has everything to do with how one-dimensional he is right now.

The second he wasn't our PG anymore, his #1 priority should have been to work on his post game. If LBJ was skilled in that way, he'd be one of the most unguardable players who's ever lived. That includes Wilt competing against 6' white dudes, and MJ & Shaq in their primes. Right now, you put a smaller player on him and you get away with it, because all he's doing is hanging out on the perimeter and not taking advantage of his size. If he started to abuse those smaller defenders in the low post, then when the opposition adjusted and put a bigger man on him, THEN he can do what he does 9 out of 10 times now when he gets the ball in the post--turn & face and blow right by his man.

There's no reason this can't happen if Bron wants it to badly enough. There also isn't any reason for such an athletically gifted individual to be anything less than one of the NBA's best defenders. But seemingly like everything else, this just takes us back to the source of his problems: he just...doesn't...care. Not enough. Not like an all-time great cares. Maybe these losses harden him, and he develops that kind of passion, but I don't see it ever happening. He's been given too much too soon and he'll always have too many people making excuses for him (especially in Cleveland), and he'll never get there. What a waste.
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Unread postby FUDU » Sat May 26, 2007 11:54 am

The guy's approach to the game is just garbage right now....... There also isn't any reason for such an athletically gifted individual to be anything less than one of the NBA's best defenders. But seemingly like everything else, this just takes us back to the source of his problems: he just...doesn't...care. Not enough.


When you say his approach to the game now are you referring to strictly this series or the more overall time span of this point in his career?

B/C if you say this series I disagree. At some point we have to give credit to the opponent for LeBron's lack of success. In this case the Pistons are doing things to make his life very tough on the court. Believe me it is hard for me to say that right now b/c I am of the belief the Cavaliers have played as well as or better than the Pistons in this series.

Also about his defense. His defense has improved a lot. Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't he been guarding Prince the vast majority of the time in this series? Prince hasn't done jack squat, did he even score in game 2.

There was a stat flashed during one of the Cavaliers last 10-12 games of the season about the SF's that give up the fewest points in the league in regards to individual match ups, you know who was a top the list for fewest PPG allowed, LeBron...IIRC something like 10-11 PPG.

Lebron right now is too focused on one angle of his game, getting to the rim. He is plenty good enough a shooter to still use and rely on his outside shot at times. When was the last time he took 3-4 jump shots in a half? His biggest weakness right now is holding on to the ball too long, myself and others mentioned it during the regular season. Thanks to Al Roker's lack of imagination for the offense LeBron gets caught up waiting and surveying too much partly b/c of the other 4 on the floor and partly b/c of himself.

Game 3 LeBron needs to use everything in his repertoire on the offensive end of the floor. If he has an open look at a 3 eight seconds into the shot clock then take it. Force Detroit to have to step out a bit and it will open up the middle for Z (assuming we keep him on the floor) who Detroit has no match up for.

Plus we need to stop this LeBron bringing the ball up crap or him getting it early in the set a top the 3 pt arc. Sure he can play the point but in a playoff series against a good team like Detroit it simply doesn't work. It makes it too easy to guard him as a team. When he is a top the arc surveying, all 5 defenders know where he is and have an angle to help if they need to. He needs to be weaving in and out of the paint getting open, when doing so the team D of the Pistons have to search and scramble to help on him and if they do it opens up all sorts of options for LeBron's teammates.
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