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Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

Cavs/Pistons Game 2

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Unread postby HoodooMan » Sat May 26, 2007 11:57 am

Jordan once went through the same thing James is going through today. Interestingly enough, it's against the same franchise

Problem with this guy's take, Swerb, is that it fudges the issue.

If you're merely looking at this as LBJ, the all-world talent, who doesn't have much help around him struggling against a superior team--coincidentally, the same superior team--then you'll see a parallel.

But if you remember how those Bulls/Pistons games went pre-91 and compare the way MJ dealt with the situation then to the way LBJ's dealing with it down, it all falls apart. The Jordan Rules weren't just about guarding him with 3-4 guys; they were also about hammering the shit out of the guy whenever he went to the basket. But while Scottie Pippen was wussing out with The Migraine and MJ was left to fend for himself, he kept going at them and kept going at them. And that tenacity and competitive spirit is what defined him as a basketball player.

LBJ?

Happy to go the Dirk route.
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Unread postby HoodooMan » Sat May 26, 2007 12:04 pm

B/C if you say this series I disagree. At some point we have to give credit to the opponent for LeBron's lack of success.

If he was trying & failing, sure. But he's been passively accepting his--and his team's fate--in this series so far.

If he'd been going hard to the rim in Game 1 and the 2nd half of Game 2 but just not getting it done because he's getting swarmed by Pistons, I could live with that. But that isn't what's happening. And by accepting what he's being given and letting his teammates decide this series, he's defending himself.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Sat May 26, 2007 12:52 pm

The reason I broke down player by player earlier has little do do with points you are are making now. (many valid) It has everything to do with blaming the guy solely for the loss. To your current points, Lebron's "inner fire" so to speak is being put to question here, both on and off the floor, and frankly, I can understand why. I have been of the opinion all year that, quite simply, the Cavs aren't that talented of a team, that doesn't mean Lebron gets a free ride because, in my eyes, he has little help. It's two seperate issues.
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Unread postby FUDU » Sat May 26, 2007 1:03 pm

Would you be saying that if we were up 2-0 or tied 1-1 bow?

We have lost two games by a total of 6 points.

We had the lead in both those games with a minute or so left.

This series is so damn close in regards to who is dong what and how well they are doing it on the court that all the analysis of LeBron's game, his approach to the game and where he is at in his career is ridiculous really. The only thing about this series that isn't deadlocked really is the series score, which I know, I know,....it's the only thing that counts.

It is simply a matter of we have not closed out the final few moments of two games we were in and even controlled. Lebron doesn't go to the rim people say WTF he needs to go to the rim every single time. He then does so and people still have their issues. This is a good, very very good defensive team in Detroit. They are going to win some of the battles (in terms of single possessions) and LeBron is going to win some. In terms of being aggressive and sticking with his strength, there is not much more LeBron can do right now. He goes to the rim strong as on ox (against 3-4 defenders) but when you get no help from the refs, especially when absolutely justified, what else is he supposed to do? Pass it to somebody else? Do we really want to have that discussion. Plus one can only go to the rim so many times, I mean this isn't a video game. The opposing coach and players do adjust.

We are one bounce/foul/time out/shot/little break away from being tied or in the lead of this series yet all the talk nationally, locally and from the fans is if we had been blown out twice and LeBron is tanking against a team the likes of the Hawks.

I don't get it at all.
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Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sat May 26, 2007 8:08 pm

FUDU wrote:I don't get it at all.


Its Cleveland, Donny. The fans here have all the optimism of Steven Wright manning a barricade at the Alamo.
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Unread postby swerb » Sat May 26, 2007 8:21 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
FUDU wrote:I don't get it at all.


Its Cleveland, Donny. The fans here have all the optimism of Steven Wright manning a barricade at the Alamo.

Best Steven Wright line ever ...

I drove past a gas station, saw two signs in the window. "Help wanted" and "self service".

I stopped in, hired myself, made myself the boss, took all the money and left.
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Unread postby jb » Sun May 27, 2007 9:26 am

HoodooMan wrote:Jordan once went through the same thing James is going through today. Interestingly enough, it's against the same franchise

Problem with this guy's take, Swerb, is that it fudges the issue.

If you're merely looking at this as LBJ, the all-world talent, who doesn't have much help around him struggling against a superior team--coincidentally, the same superior team--then you'll see a parallel.

But if you remember how those Bulls/Pistons games went pre-91 and compare the way MJ dealt with the situation then to the way LBJ's dealing with it down, it all falls apart. The Jordan Rules weren't just about guarding him with 3-4 guys; they were also about hammering the shit out of the guy whenever he went to the basket. But while Scottie Pippen was wussing out with The Migraine and MJ was left to fend for himself, he kept going at them and kept going at them. And that tenacity and competitive spirit is what defined him as a basketball player.

LBJ?

Happy to go the Dirk route.


DEEP fly ball...

He's going back, back, back....

And he has no chance - it's WAAAAAAY outta here.

Grand Slam.

Wow, he really tagged that one. What was that ? 500 feet? 550?

The Truth hurts.

He just doesn't care enough whne he needs to care; in July and August.

Bron, bail on this USA FIBA shit and work on your game.
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Unread postby FUDU » Sun May 27, 2007 11:11 am

I won't argue that LeBron seems to have other interests that spread him too thin, no doubt he does. He even admits it. He wants to be a billionaire and an iconic business man....and he wants to do so WHILE playing hoops. Ain't gonna happen, one of the two ventures will suffer and it appears the ball game is the one suffering right now.

But I want to put to the rest all the LeBron conversations that reference MJ.

All those conversations, in regards to success and desire, should cease to exist, they really need to stop.

Jordan was 21 as a rookie. LeBron 18.

Jordan joined a team that was slightly more accomplished then the Cavalier team LeBron ended up with.

Jordan took 3 attempts to get out of the first round of the playoffs, LeBron did it in his first try (by hitting a HUGE game winning shot mind you).

Jordan took 5 years to get to the EC finals, and lost em the first two times he was there. He didn't WIN, or become successful (in terms of the ultimate prize) until 7 years into his career...at age 27.

He had two of the pieces of his puzzle on the team right away in Paxson and Oakley, both very needed specialists. Hell he still didn't get his team to .500 until his 4th year, the same year the final two pieces were added with Grant and his second fiddle Pippen.

Lebron, 22, is ALREADY at a place that it took his Airness 5 years and an age of 25 to get to and MJ had better teams to do it with.

LeBron's responsibilities on the court dwarf Jordan's, not even a contest, hell Nash might be the only other player in that debate right now.

He has done all this by himself and still ahead of the supposed "curve".

The biggest difference between MJ and LeBron is the ability to separate the on court and off court desires. Michael was the master at it, he paved that road for the likes of a Tiger Woods. LeBron cannot separate that stuff as well right now , OK fine, so what. He is still improving and in the middle of the EC finals.

To ask for anything more right now is simply ludicrous and unreasonable.


FWIW I am Jordan's biggest fan.


Oh, and did I mention Lebron is 22.
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun May 27, 2007 12:01 pm

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Unread postby FUDU » Sun May 27, 2007 1:03 pm

From the article:
The Pistons have decided to pack the paint so deep with defenders that you have no choice but to shoot or pass.

WOW that is pretty deep there. What other choices are there really at any time in any situation.

Not impressed with the author's POV. It is not a secret by any means. He is correct about LeBron's mid range game, but LeBron's mid range game isn't bad, he just doesn't use it enough. The NBA is partially to blame for that seeing as there really is no mid range game is the league anymore (actually college hoops deserves most of the blame) . The off balance jump shots need to go as well but again it is no secret. He still shoots a decent % it just isn't among the highest % so people like to jump on that.

The author mentions Kobe, Kobe is a great scorer, no doubt, Kobe is also watching Lebron from his living room right now.
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun May 27, 2007 11:18 pm

Donny: The point of the article is the author.

Bow: Yeah, the MJ rules involved beating the shit out of him, but how many times in his Chitown career did MJ see a zone and how many times in the playoffs this year has LBJ seen one? The surrounding cast and their inability to hit shots is magnified exponentially by the zone defense.

PS: Tonight is why I refuse to put a cap on LBJ's potential.
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Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon May 28, 2007 11:41 am

Bow: Yeah, the MJ rules involved beating the shit out of him, but how many times in his Chitown career did MJ see a zone and how many times in the playoffs this year has LBJ seen one? The surrounding cast and their inability to hit shots is magnified exponentially by the zone defense.

Zone D's complicate things a little, but 1) illegal defenses were never called as often as they were happening, and 2) LBJ attacking a zone and MJ attacking 3-4 defenders playing their version of man to man defense isn't that different.

And last night is why I find games like 1 & 2 so frustrating.
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