Cavaliers v Raptors 12/26

[Orenthal]

ESPN Preview
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/preview?gameId=311226005

Irving named starter...
@PDcavsinsiderReed, Boyer
Blogging the #Cavs: Scott names Kyrie Irving starter for opener http://bit.ly/vlDSmc
2 hours ago via TweetDeck

[Doc]

And here I thought they might trot out Sessions at starter for the first 10-15 games and see if they could drum up some interest in him for a trade. Bad feeling they might eek out a win to start. They are a better team than Toronto.

[swerb]

Lower bowl about 10% full 20 min before tip off of the opener.

[googleeph2]

I'm kinda pumped. Enjoy listening to Chones on radio- he's an optimist (homer), and I like that.
It's as if you are sitting next to him in the stands.

This John Michael is not irritating. Which is half the battle.

[swerb]

Tristan looking filthy early. Very nice.

[Orenthal]

Agree on Tristan, most impressive was the move inside the paint past two Raptors. Finishes with a lil hook/floater.

[Orenthal]

Gee almost died btw on that dunk.

[Triple-S]

you guys think the highlights for this will be posted later w/the new radio guy?

Wanna see how the new guys look.

[Orenthal]

Everything looking good so far. Don't want to win too many of these early games in this soft part of the schedule. Give us a nice consistent approach to losing.

[JJN]

No worries about winning this one. The Raps are better than us.

[noles1]

Vegas had the Raps win total at 15 1/2.

Had the Cavs at 16 1/2.

Even by our poor standards this would be a "surprise".

Cavs have positioned this team to certainly be picking in the Top 3 for the upcoming draft.

[dmiles]

Cavs have positioned this team to certainly be picking in the Top 3 for the upcoming draft.

Never too early for a little draft talk if you are Cleveland Fan.

Is it just me or is Casspi' jumper u-g-l-y? These youngsters apparently can't play much defense....

[Triple-S]

TWOA is apparently watching this game.

[googleeph2]

Vegas had the Raps win total at 15 1/2.

Had the Cavs at 16 1/2.

Even by our poor standards this would be a "surprise".

Cavs have positioned this team to certainly be picking in the Top 3 for the upcoming draft.

No doubt they had the Raps winning all of theirs early, and the Cavs winning all of theirs late.

[noles1]

Cavs have scored on 10 of last 11 possessions and are still down 8. (80-72)

[pup]

Double digit loss in home opener against the "worst" team in the league.

Maybe 19 was a bit high for a win total.

[JJN]

I have no idea why anyone would think the Raptors are worse than us. They have a decent pg (Calderon), an athletic wing scorer (DeRozan), a pair of decent PF (Johnson and Davis), and a center that can get hot and is tough to guard (Bargs). Hell, the only player I would take on the Cavs over those listed Raps is Kyrie and maybe TT over Amir Johnson. I think Davis will be better than TT.

[dmiles]

2-12, for Kyrie, too early to say bust?



I like his movement on the floor, typical young guy, needs some defensive work, and took care of the ball at least. It's going to be damn hard to be a big assist guy on this squad.

What else is there to say that hasn't been covered? The team is well positioned to get back into the top 4 of the draft.

[pup]

I have no idea why anyone would think the Raptors are worse than us. They have a decent pg (Calderon), an athletic wing scorer (DeRozan), a pair of decent PF (Johnson and Davis), and a center that can get hot and is tough to guard (Bargs). Hell, the only player I would take on the Cavs over those listed Raps is Kyrie and maybe TT over Amir Johnson. I think Davis will be better than TT.

Well, I did put worst team in quotes at least.

[JJN]

I have no idea why anyone would think the Raptors are worse than us. They have a decent pg (Calderon), an athletic wing scorer (DeRozan), a pair of decent PF (Johnson and Davis), and a center that can get hot and is tough to guard (Bargs). Hell, the only player I would take on the Cavs over those listed Raps is Kyrie and maybe TT over Amir Johnson. I think Davis will be better than TT.

Well, I did put worst team in quotes at least.

I was thinking of Vegas. I just don't see how they could think we will be a game better than the Raps unless they haven't watched Jamison play in the past 2 years.

In regards to Kyrie, not having an extended preseason to get his shot rhythm, he is going to be putting up some stinky percentages. That said, I didn't see Jamo set one screen that he didn't flare out on early. He did manage to get 7 assists in 26 minutes considering Jamison missed pretty much every damn shot when KI passed him the ball. Once he has teammates that other teams have to respect, he should have a bit more room in the paint. He'll be ok.

The good:
I think TT is gonna be alright. I don't expect him to always pull 6-8 on FT, but I like his energy. He'll be great to cheer on once Andy gets (hopefully) traded.
Session going 18/4/6 and Varejao going 14/10 is a good sign. They need to keep it up to improve their trade value.
Gee was nice to watch.

The bad:
Anything Jamison did.

[e0y2e3]

Davis will be ten times the player TT is.

Christ, you peeps are crazy.

[swerb]

Cavs are going to lose a lot of games this year. Their interior defense and muscle is non existent. They allowed the Raptors an insane amount of wide open looks do tho shitty interior defense and poor/slow rotations. Raps had an amazing 35 assists on their 42 buckets.

Thought Tristan Thompson looked great. Will be a season of ups and downs for him as he adjusts to playing at this level, but you can see the clear talent and ability. Sessions played great as well. Very confusing that Byron Scott didn't have those two on the floor at the end of the game, as they were the teams two best players last night.

Kyrie struggled. He'll be fine. Andy was Andy. Jamo took 20 shots, missed 14, and was his usual matador self on D. If I never see Ryan Hollins play again, it will be too soon.

[leadpipe]

I have no idea why anyone would think the Raptors are worse than us. They have a decent pg (Calderon), an athletic wing scorer (DeRozan), a pair of decent PF (Johnson and Davis), and a center that can get hot and is tough to guard (Bargs). Hell, the only player I would take on the Cavs over those listed Raps is Kyrie and maybe TT over Amir Johnson. I think Davis will be better than TT.

Well, I did put worst team in quotes at least.

I was thinking of Vegas. I just don't see how they could think we will be a game better than the Raps unless they haven't watched Jamison play in the past 2 years.

In regards to Kyrie, not having an extended preseason to get his shot rhythm, he is going to be putting up some stinky percentages. That said, I didn't see Jamo set one screen that he didn't flare out on early. He did manage to get 7 assists in 26 minutes considering Jamison missed pretty much every damn shot when KI passed him the ball. Once he has teammates that other teams have to respect, he should have a bit more room in the paint. He'll be ok.The good:
I think TT is gonna be alright. I don't expect him to always pull 6-8 on FT, but I like his energy. He'll be great to cheer on once Andy gets (hopefully) traded.
Session going 18/4/6 and Varejao going 14/10 is a good sign. They need to keep it up to improve their trade value.
Gee was nice to watch.

The bad:
Anything Jamison did.

Isn't that what we said regarding Lebron here.

His entire career.

Until he left.

It's Cleveland. A horrible organization AND nobody wants to be here. So, Kyrie is gonna have the same weight on his shoulders Lebron did - which was HE had to create the players that others respected, cause they aren't here now, and they aren't gonna come at a fast enough rate to replace the couple a guys that know what the hells goin' on before they get outta town.

TT is a perfect example. Number 4 pick in the draft and his ceiling is somewhere around "A little better then a scrapper". Sure, might be a nice player, team guy and all, but that ain't cuttin' it when you got nobody else that can PLAY.

[Prosecutor]

I liked the improvement by Gee and Sessions. The Cavs have a crying need for an athletic wing who can score. Gee was able to get to the paint and draw contact and he shows signs of developing into a solid rotational guy.

Sessions has been working on his outside shot and the improvement was obvious. If he can continue to make teams pay for conceding him the 3-pointer combined with his ability to penetrate he'll be an effective player.

Cavs were outrebounded 45-37 and were unable to get a running game going. Despite being in the half court offense all night they managed to score 96 points, which is not bad considering everybody is asking where the points are going to come from. Those 15 offensive boards helped.

KI, Jamo, and Casspi combined to shoot 8-for-36. KI's shot will come once he gets acclimated to the league. Jamo's wierd assortment of flips and floaters weren't dropping, and his 3-pointers were ugly. I don't know if he's losing it or if it was just an off night. Casspi was 0-for-4 and just never got involved in the offense.

Defense was obviously the big problem. Calderon got 15 points and 11 assists running the pick-and-roll relentlessly. His ability to break down the defense and execute passes led to six Raptors scoring between 13-15 points. That's about as balanced as it gets.

[pup]

Until the NBA allows for separate units to play offense and defense, Ramon Sessions will never be effective.

He will get you some, but he is going to give them far more over the course of 82 (66). Especially when you have nothing inside to stop penetration once he gets blown by.

[e0y2e3]

Admittedly, I didn't watch the game last night because there was less than zero reason to and when I turned on the late night replay I heard Austin Carr speak and couldn't deal with him for more than 35 seconds.

That said, getting hyped about two nice offensive plays from TT and someone calling Gee an athletic scorer is just amazingly hilarious.

Again, wake me when Varejo, Sessions and Jamison are off the roster, untilt them you are wasting your time.

[peeker643]

Admittedly, I didn't watch the game last night because there was less than zero reason to .....

^^ x 66= Y/Watch

The team is unwatchable.

Bu the threads will be priceless and full of hope.

Like the N th stage cancer patient getting over that cold.

[e0y2e3]

BTW: if Sessions did indeed go an entire game where his ratio of crashing into the lane and either dribbling the ball off of his knee and/or chucking up a terrible shot as three defenders crash down on him to actually creating offense was acceptable he needs to be traded within the hour, as his value will never be higher.

[Kingpin74]

Admittedly, I didn't watch the game last night because there was less than zero reason to and when I turned on the late night replay I heard Austin Carr speak and couldn't deal with him for more than 35 seconds.

That said, getting hyped about two nice offensive plays from TT and someone calling Gee an athletic scorer is just amazingly hilarious.

Again, wake me when Varejo, Sessions and Jamison are off the roster, untilt them you are wasting your time.

We won't be good for 5 years minimum. This is really depressing. What could we even get for Andy at this point? A first round pick in the 20 range? And I don't see us getting a first rounder for Jamison at the deadline even with the expiring deal. We need to start buying more unprotected lottery picks that come through with a 2.9% chance.

[rebelwithoutaclue]

Davis will be ten times the player TT is.

Christ, you peeps are crazy.

A little context maybe? Nobody has mentioned any Davis in this entire thread. Which Davis? Baron Davis? Anthony Davis from Kentucky? And who said anything about TT other than the general consensus along the lines of "He looks better than I thought", "Maybe he won't be terrible", and "his ceiling is slighty above 'scrapper'". None of the usual Cavs prognostications about being the next Amare Stoudemire or whatnot.


Sometimes you bitch just to bitch.

[e0y2e3]

Andy for Harden was at least discussed last year.

He has serious value.

Salaries will need to be toyed with since Memphis refuses to pay the luxury tax, but with Arthur out they desperately need a big man (HEY!, I SEEM TO RECALL BEGGING THE CAVS TO DRAFT ARTHUR IN THE SECOND ROUND A FEW YEARS AGO!!). Something like Andy for Mayo + a pick + filler could be worked out.

[e0y2e3]

You may want to read JJN's post upthread and then think real, real, real hard about who the Cavs played yesterday rebel.

[noles1]

He meant Ed Davis for Toronto as a poster compared the two. And I'm with him on it. I would take Ed Davis over Tristan.


I look at the roster and I see nearly nothing redeemable.

You have a PG for the future but one that no one is sure if he has a Top 12 ceiling.

TT is a role player on a good team down the road. On this team, he will get the kit glove treatment until poster realize a simple truth of the NBA basement-dwellers. (ie. it's easy to get 15-10 for a garbage team)

This team needs to be taking a sinister approach to finding young pieces. Should be all over the Clips for a kid like Bledsoe. Probably should have been on a Reggie Williams type already. I think the main reason they weren't is they want to fully bottom out this year again and hope to get another 2 blocks in this year's draft. Then upon gutting the remainder and likely moving Andy some point this year (if blown away) or during the off-season.

2013 you are looking at the lottery again and if Cavs are lucky have 4-5 young players that they feel they can build upon.

[e0y2e3]

And FTR: I fully expect Ed Davis to end up a double double machine.

[Orenthal]

I believe JJN was speaking of Ed Davis. At least that was what I could determine from the context.

But hey, TT worst top 5 pick ever though... So don't expect any reassessments based on performance.

[Kingpin74]

Andy for Harden was at least discussed last year.

He has serious value.

Salaries will need to be toyed with since Memphis refuses to pay the luxury tax, but with Arthur out they desperately need a big man (HEY!, I SEEM TO RECALL BEGGING THE CAVS TO DRAFT ARTHUR IN THE SECOND ROUND A FEW YEARS AGO!!). Something like Andy for Mayo + a pick + filler could be worked out.

Sign me up for Mayo if that's possible. Harden would have been great but I think that ship has sailed now. And which draft was Arthur? Passing on him was almost as fun as Eyenga over DeJuan Blair in '09 when the team was desperate for immediate help.

[e0y2e3]

FTR: Blair choked away his starting job last year in the playoffs, got it back this preseason and managed to stay on the court for all of ten minutes.

Arthur was 2008, the year before there was almost a riot on the boards over Sam Young. That was possibly my
favorite in draft melt-down of all time.

And I misremembered, Arthur went in the first (27) but it was a pick that was bought for a few million. Either way, that draft was the Hickson draft and they were targetting Hibbert so I can't hate. Was probably the best draft of the Ferry era.

[e0y2e3]

The 2008 second round was actually a pretty awesome haul (for being the second round and all): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_NBA_Draft.

And that's before even taking into account The Cavs landing their future All-Pro center, Sasha Kaun in that draft.

[Orenthal]

I'm more concerned about us passing (trading) on Justin Harper. BIGGEST MISTAKE EVA!

*I called buying a pick or trading for Bledsoe. Check the archives!

[Kingpin74]

FTR: Blair choked away his starting job last year in the playoffs, got it back this preseason and managed to stay on the court for all of ten minutes.

Arthur was 2008, the year before there was almost a riot on the boards over Sam Young. That was possibly my
favorite in draft melt-down of all time.

And I misremembered, Arthur went in the first (27) but it was a pick that was bought for a few million. Either way, that draft was the Hickson draft and they were targetting Hibbert so I can't hate. Was probably the best draft of the Ferry era.

Still though, would have made a nice trade chip in the Amare discussions if nothing else. And yes, I can't fault the Hickson pick too much either. Nice value at 21 or whatever it was. The one that will haunt them for a while is '04. People on here always talk about the Smith, Jefferson, etc. upside types, and they're right. But even aside from them, Jameer Nelson was sitting there, he was a low risk pick, and PG was a clear need (I said it at the time too, no second guessing). Hell, they could have just bought the pick at 20 like the Magic ended up doing. He's not great or anything but he's a solid starting PG and a leader like that might have made a big difference with the scumbag.

[Orenthal]

Eh, last year we lost to the Raptors by 20 and 15 before beating them by 8 with Baron. What 2011 means for 2012? Nothing other then we might suck as bad as last year. YES!

GO KINGS!

[Prosecutor]

Eh, last year we lost to the Raptors by 20 and 15 before beating them by 8 with Baron. What 2011 means for 2012? Nothing other then we might suck as bad as last year. YES!

As for sucking as bad as last year, I don't think we'll lose 26 in a row. But we're in transition at the moment. In that 8 point win over Toronto you referred to, Hickson got 28 pts and 10 boards while Baron got 19 pts with 12 assists. The Cavs miss that production right now, especially at forward where the guy we traded Hickson for scored 2 points in 20 minutes.

Both starting forwards sucked last night, but I expect better performances from Twan and Casspi starting tomorrow. Irving and TT should get better by the week, although nobody expects TT to keep scoring 14 per game. Although...if Sessions and KI continue to get penetration, TT and Andy will get lots of chances to finish.

The lack of size on the front line concerns me. Jamo and Casspi are wiry guys who get shoved around under the boards, Samuels and TT are physical but lack height, and AV has no hops. There is no enforcer to stop the big man rolling to the hoop off the pick-and-roll. The Raptors shot 53% with a ton of points in the paint.

[e0y2e3]

Casspi is going to have as many games where he cannot hit the backboard as he is nights where he makes 45+% of his shots.

That is Casspi's game.

[JJN]

I believe JJN was speaking of Ed Davis. At least that was what I could determine from the context.

But hey, TT worst top 5 pick ever though... So don't expect any reassessments based on performance.

I was talking about Ed Davis.

I really think we could have made a run at trading for him early last year too, when he wasn't really playing up to snuff. I also remember hearing rumors that we were trying to snag the Raps pick for DeRozan when they took him to pair on the wings with TWOA. Damn would that have been fun to watch, but I digress.

Anyway, I think Ed Davis will be better than TT, but not as much as Lee thinks. All I'm really hoping for out of TT is something like Taj Gibson (Who is probably the best PF on the Bulls ATM so I might be asking too much). That said, I do think that TT has a chance to be something very special on defense. Great length combined with good athleticism and, by all accounts, a great work ethic could make him a great piece.

[e0y2e3]

Taj Gibson:

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Taj%20Gibson

Check those distance splits. I like Taj, but playing better defense than Boozer and hustling more doesn't make him more than a first big off the bench.

[JJN]

Taj Gibson:

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Taj%20Gibson

Check those distance splits. I like Taj, but playing better defense than Boozer and hustling more doesn't make him more than a first big off the bench.

His 2010 splits weren't that bad though. And Gibson isn't anywhere near the athlete that TT is. TT is bigger, faster, and has 5+" more vertical leap. Gibson probably has a better jumpshot though.

Perhaps a poor man's Ben Wallace/Josh Smith or smart Tyrus Thomas is a better comparison?

[leadpipe]

I believe JJN was speaking of Ed Davis. At least that was what I could determine from the context.

But hey, TT worst top 5 pick ever though... So don't expect any reassessments based on performance.

Speaking for myself, I'm not even necessarily panning the pick (although it's not who I would have picked), it's just in the context of the whole "Cavs getting good with lottery picks" take, that it's not close to automatic that you get the help you need.

Being in the lottery 4 straight years, or something like that needs to net you more than the Tristan Thompsons of the world, or your gonna blow. And the fact of the matter is, when you watch how things work, there's a better chance that out of say 5 lottery picks, that you're going to get three like this, and not 5 excellent players that people somehow seem to believe the Cavs are gonna have the good fortune to get.

Point is, Thompson can prove himself to be very worthy of the 4 selection, and he can be a piece of a winning team. But he's not getting you any closer to getting the guys that would REALLY make an NBA team win.

Some of the same guys that laugh at the Heat cause they were forced to give big munutes to Joel Anthony are gonna love Tristan Thompson....

[Orenthal]

All I'm saying is you had a weak draft, and while you probably should have picked Jonas, lets at least give the kid 6 games before we say he is worse then Nikoloz Tskitishvili.

No one wants to draft questiona marks in the top 5, but this is the NBA its 50-50 given the player and strength of the draft.

[e0y2e3]

TT's absolutely ceiling is current edition Tyrus Thomas and IMO, Thomas is nowhere near his ceiling yet. Everytime the kid gets minutes he produces and he was finally in line for big minutes this year before this stupid injury that hopefully goes away soon.

[e0y2e3]

All I'm saying is you had a weak draft, and while you probably should have picked Jonas, lets at least give the kid 6 games before we say he is worse then Nikoloz Tskitishvili.

No one wants to draft questiona marks in the top 5, but this is the NBA its 50-50 given the player and strength of the draft.

FTR: I'm not saying he is going to be the worst performing top five pick of all time, not even close. I'm saying to logically take a guy with zero chance at being an offensive player in the top five is as bad of logic as you can get historically.

40% FT shooters taken in the top five that cannot shoot? Light. Me. On. Fire.

Kid may end up a very servicable NBA player, but taking him in general was beyond stupid.